Yup it will make noises like the 70s Batman series (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, I mean... I know about the Elemental Strike adept power... but no aura powers for adepts.

Unless this is another case of my not having/using the crazy books like War! ...?

~Umidori

If it is a regular adept you are right of course. A mystic adept could pull this off.

Zipploxx.

Magic is powerful.

What happens when something powerful occurs? There is the perfectly natural reaction of the witnesses. "Somebody doing something! Help!"

You witnessed a player doing something powerful in your game. What did you do? You went to the larger community for help.

The facility NPC guards see something powerful, what will they do? They will go out for help.

No matter how powerful you think that puny mage on your team is, there is always both more opponents and more powerful opponents out there. There is always something more powerful out there.

In practical terms, it is is relatively cheap for a security force to sub contract out a set of on call spirits supplied by a mage somewhere else. The NPC guards hit the panic button, and within a turn a spirit will arrive to counteract your mages spirit.

Next step the astral security mage arrives, not to fight, but to act as an astral witness and to provide a lock on for later astral tracking down of your teams mage astral signature.

Sure, your mage walked all over that facility, but there will now be teams of astral security mages, packs of overwatch drones, flights of security force helicoptors full of heavy gunnery out hunting your mage.

Have fun.

Geeking Mages is heavy industry and a career for millions of people.

Mages are powerful and rare, bullets cost 2 nuyen each and are plentiful.

Kinda unusual for a fist-adept though, having to split the magic score and all.

It could work I suppose. Elemental Aura is a beastly sort of spell for a melee character: +1DV per spellcasting hit at half armor with elemental effects, plus anyone who actually hits you back has to resist (Spell Force) damage. It has a high drain though, F/2 + 3, and if you're sustaining it yourself that's 2 dice less for the punchy-punchy. Probably better to have a dedicated spellcaster in your team to keep it up on you instead, though. And it's definitely not subtle, physically or astrally.

Personally if I want to focus more on the physical combat, I tend to avoid mystic adepts because it gets BP/karma expensive to pay for the magic enough to split between powers and spells, then lose some of it for an initiative booster, and then buy the skills to actually cast anything worthwhile. Plus most spells worth using to enhance your physical combat are, again, sustained, which hinders your physical combat. And you gotta take the time to cast them, and resist the drain, and you light up like an astral christmas tree.

~Umidori

One of my current players asked me to draw up a Jedi-wannabe type for him, which from his description had to be mystic adept. But very little of what he wanted required spellcasting, so to save on costs I gave him the (much deplored) Aspected quality twice, once for spellcasting and once for manipulation magic, using the optional +2/-6 rule. Threw in a manipulation specialisation and his Magic (Spellcasting) of 1 and Spellcasting skill of 1 now gives him a DP of 8 for telepathy and telekinesis magic. And that's for -4 BP all told. Mentor Spirit and focus could get it even higher of course, but he didn't go for it.

Such things can't exist in an complex system, unless rules were screwed up badly (meaning not overpowered but really broken).
There is just one such glitch in SR, and that would be the free spirit with unlimited Karma supply...

Nothing in it self will make you "win". The best pools in shooting won't help, if the object is to brew coffee...

Especially not if the resourced brought against you are unlimited...

So a usefull definition of broken is:
"An option to do achieve a goal much easier and/or better than every other possible solution"
For example, take computer games.
Lets take, for example StarCraft 2.

The "reaper" would be broken if, he had 10 more HP, 2 more damage and 20% more range.
Why? It still could not do much against a terran cruiser or other heavy units?
Yes, but at the time you get them and with the right tactics they would be devastating.

On the other hand, an I win button does not need to be broken. A Unit which would be nearly impossible to get but also nearly impossible to defeat would not be broken...

You're being pedantic, Irion.

When in doubt, go with the rule of fun. If it's fun, let it slide. If it isn't fun, or if it relies on ruining someone elses fun to be fun, then nix it.

Whether you wanna call it "broken", an "I Win Button", "imbalanced", or just plain "overpowered", any option with a poor ratio of fun to anti-fun needs to be addressed. And remember that your mileage may vary - just like how some people prefer Pink Mohawk to Black Trenchcoat, some people are going to be more or less willing to tolerate anti-fun when it crops up. One person's acceptable trade-off is another person's game-breaking idiotic rule structure. It's open to interpretation.

You might be fine with a feature that simply drives someone else nuts. That's cool if you are. But the appropriate response isn't to dismiss their frustrations, or even to tell them that they can overcome the anti-fun problem by doing "Other Thing". It might work wonders, but it also might not be what they personally wanted or expected from their gaming. Options are a good thing. People don't like having only one choice for dealing with a problem - even moreso when it's a problem that blindsides them, something that they weren't expecting to even be a problem.

When people talk about something being "broken", or whatever word you want to use, they really only mean one thing - "I find X to be unfun." And I can't think of a more legitimate complaint for an aspect of a game system.

~Umidori

The "I Win" button is only a problem when it isn't your finger pressing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Elemental Strike or whatever, the Adept Power from Street Magic. Done sonic it is simply broken (and yes, I just called something broken).



Also, note that I said I haven't seen them.

Not more broken than Elemental Strike [Electricity]. While the target gets no armor vs sonic damage (there are ways to get protection though), electricity always imposes a -2 on the target and can incapacitate it.

Yes, but Sound Dampers are only available to cyberears, and mages with Silence would have been a direct response to the character's choice. A good GM doesn't need to custom-tailor enemies like that (unless they earn it through in-game enemies). I countered the particular player by adding more drones (logical) and using superior tactics (punchy-punchy character can't hit the people overlooking the alley from a balcony now, can he?).

Besides, Electricity is easily resisted with Nonconductivity.

@Dakka

Sonic damage actually is far worse than Electricity.

With Electricity, the victim gets to roll Body + Willpower + Half Impact. If they hit the threshold of 3, they don't get Incapacitated, but they suffer a -2 dice pool modifier. If they don't reach the threshold and do get Incapacitated, they cannot take action for 2 + Attack Net Hits Combat Turns.

With Sonic, if you deal more damage than the target has Willpower, they instantly suffer Nausea, and are deafened for 10 minutes.


So instead of an automatic -2 dice with a low threshold test to resist Incapacitation with a fair amount of dice, you get automatic double wound modifiers (ranging from -2 to -6) and automatically get Incapacitated if the DV exceeds your willpower. And you don't get any armor to resist the damage itself.

Stick that on a fist-adept throwing out punches that range in damage from a shotgun blast to an assault canon round, and it literally becomes impossible to resist being taken out of the fight for three entire Combat Turns if you get struck. And even if you get back into the fight after that, you've still taken a fair bit of stun, and you're deaf and suffer double wound modifiers for another 9 minutes and 51 seconds.

~Umidori

Woops forgot about the nausea. You are right, that is powerful, too powerful maybe. Drones however are absolutely immune against it.

At which point the fist-adept uses their Killing Hands power (a pre-requisite for Elemental Strke) to deal Physical Damage punches for typically anywhere from 7 to 13 base damage. Or if they took the Elemental Strike power twice, they just witch to a different element, like Electricity - the original Bane of Drones.

The superior tactics Neraph employed are probably the best counter - after all, the reason ranged weapons exist is so you don't get punched or stabbed at melee.

~Umidori

It is a grey area whether that works. The elemental effect tells us that it is stun damage, killing hands says you can do physicla damage. Whichever gets applied first is irrelevant. I'd say if you teke the elemental effect you get all of the elemental effect, unless explicitly mentioned differently (Lightnining bolt). BTW where did you get the 7 to 13 base damage. This is not a function of that power. Investing additional adept powers into that you could of course get there. It sitll only allowes to squish anything in melee range.

My point exactly.

Sorry, wasn't clear, was assuming typical sorts of punch values for fist-adepts. Critical Strike plus ork or troll level strength and martial arts make you punch like a beast.

And for the Killing Hands, I meant turn off your Elemental Strike and just punch for straight physical, no element.

~Umidori

Does not work all that well against a drone that the Melee-adept cannot reach, though. Whether it is flying or on the ground.

Kinda mentioned that in the post before my last one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umidori

Indeed you did... My Apologies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I like a good Melee Adept, but I prefer a Good Throwing Adept more.

Throwing is probably superior in most cases, except for Astral stuff like a non-manifested spirit. Then you're right back to the problem of being unable to effectively reach your enemy while they can rain pain down on you. At least with spririt punching you can move into melee range for both physical and astral.

~Umi

I would argue the Astral Closing of Distance for a Melee Adept. Since he is constrained to gravity effects, and a Spirit or Astral projecting Mage is not, he has the same issues either way, astrally. He is the victim in that regard, and is likely never going to gain an upper hand, unless he can constrain the encounter to something within arm's reach.

As I understand the RAW, though, dual natured non-projecting characters are fully capable of engaging in astral combat against fully astral forms with nothing ever being said about range or positioning.

...although , they're also fully capable of Astrally Tracking with the same Extended Test Interval as a fully astral tracker... so...

*shrug*

~Umi

Astral combat is treated as melee physical attacks. And also, "there are no known ranged weapons which function in astral space". The *ONLY* way to affect something outside your reach in astral is to use a mana spell. No weapons work. Also astral combat is 'trained only' (great way to screw over munchkin mages who think they can ignore it... since they'll always just attack with spells... spirit at astral speed gets in his face and gores him... he can't defend since he can't default on the astral combat test). Adepts have the same problem... attacking astral only forms they need to use willpower + astral combat.

So yes, only spirits which effectively have perfect flight while materialized and ludicrous astral speeds can engage pretty much anything in astral combat. Otherwise an astrally projecting mage, or a spirit of man with innate spell stunbolt/manabolt can pretty much ruin the day of any ground bound dual-natured entity since there's little they can do to attack back except break LOS from the caster (such as underground or a building so the astral form has to come within reach to see the target).

This is also the reason the first thing munchkins do when playing a ghoul is install cybereyes... it eliminates their 1 point of magic making them forever more mundane and forever eliminating the dual-natured drawback. It also restores normal sight to them. (and avoids needing to learn assensing & astral combat... two trained only skills)

The only catch is that something which has the "dual natured" power (not which is dual-natured... since it's possible to do so by percieving without having the power) gains a special out... it may always use it's physical stats along with any 'natural weapon' powers weapons and it's unarmed combat skill to defend or attack astrally as well as physically. This is to prevent things like dual-natured grizzlies from getting completely gimped since they're able to use their claws/bite to pretty much rip things apart.

Here's another one most people don't realize... materializing spirits aren't given the 'dual natured' power. They become 'dual natured' in the same sense than an astrally perceiving character is dual natured. The power gives them access to the material plane in a similar manner to how perception gives an adept access to the astral. It's not the same as the critter power. (it's a VERY VERY bad habit of the authors to give critter powers different abilities with the same name as other powers... such as mystic armor... does radically different things as player spell, player adept power, critter power). So a GM could stretch the rules to slap a spirit with a -2 penalty to any physical interactions with the real world in the same manner as a mage trying to use a pistol or punch someone while astrally perceiving.

In fact, only some later books hint that spirits gain any 'normal' senses at all when they materialize and that is only in the bit for making PC free spirits. I personally have always just gone with.. they can interact with the material plane, but can still only assense unless they have 'low light vision' or something similar through an enhanced senses critter power.

You should put some of this in the Broken Rules thread. Also, don't forget that Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation are all Physical powers. I'll let you figure out what that means.