Yeah, I don't understand the question. Of course you expect them to be constrained by all their stats, high and low. Are you just saying it can't be done 'soft'?

Wow. I'd've been docking him Karma every session for not playing his character as built.

I would also have been creatively re-interpreting everything the player said, in light of the character's lack of social graces. After all, I do the same (to the player's benefit) when someone is playing a character with higher attributes than the player would have. It's only right, fair, and balanced to do the same in the other direction ... right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So if the CHA 1, Uncouth, Etiquette 0 character goes to a party, and the player tries to pull a "Bond, James Bond" suave-and-debonaire routine? I, as a GM, renarrate the scene to depict said character belching unapologetically, not dressed appropriately, unceremoniously shouldering people aside to get at the "eats an' booze", and otherwise being an absolute, unsufferable, uncivilised monster. The NPCs reactions are predicate on my version of events, not the players.

I keep the core of what the player wants his character to say and/or do ... just ... focused through a warped lens.

So ... in a PbP environment, if a player says of his character, Chumly the Ork (with aforementioned stat/skill/quality setup): "I thank the usher and tip him generously, then make my way to the buffet for a small snack and a glass of something to drink. And then spend the night making small-talk at the edge of the party."

I narrate it as Chumly slides the usher a paper ten-spot, giving him a friendly clout on the shoulder that sends the poor fellow staggering a few steps with a cheerful "Oi, don' spend that on jus' one hooker, eh?" He then shoulders his way through the crowd (remarkably gently - noone falls, and you don't hear breaking glass even once) to the side-table. Taking one entire serving tray, and piling random handfuls of other foods on it as well (using a waiter's chest as a convenient napkin), and plucking two entire bottles of champagne out of a bucket of ice and drinking straight from teh bottle, Chumly spends the night making crude passes at just about anything female and legal in the room.

Because, with Charisma 1, Uncouth, and not even a single rankof Etiquette? That's actually surprisingly good behavior, wouldn't you agree? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So the player's wish to "be on best behavior and make a good impression" is honored ... but the character's actual attribute, (absence of) skill, and negative quality change what that intent means for that specific character.


Who's to stop you?

The GM. That's who.

>:)

Pax,
I love this!

-D

Spirit Bane also precludes any mages on the same team as the character being able to use that spirit.

So, Spirit Bane (Watcher) means that mages on the squad won't be able to use Watcher spirits, ever.
That sucks.

It's fairly easy to deal with someone with a low Charisma trying to roleplay as if it doesn't matter - have the NPCs react accordingly. Have them be distrustful when he is trying to convince them of something, quick to abuse their authority if they can get away with it, asking for a bribes, flinching back when he's not trying to inimidate them, and so on. Don't completely shut him down, but make him have to work for things like getting past the bouncer to an exclusive club, when that same bouncer will simply smile and wave the smooth-talking face right on in.

Low Intuition is quantifiable, as if affects initiative and perception tests. Willpower is also quantifiable, affecting numerous tests.

Logic is the toughest one. But going by the description on p. 61 of SR4, it is mainly memory and raw brainpower. Don't be afraid to call for memory tests for low-Logic characters trying to execute a complicated plan that they have come up with. Low Logic characters don't have to be imbeciles, but they are bad at multitasking and remembering things.

And a good player can roleplay that, while avoiding the constant die-rolling, by making their character obsessive list-keepers. Which shifts the "cost" of the low logic into added risk, should a hacker decide to pry into their commlink's files.

Except with their 2 dicepool they are in easy Critical Glitch territory, not to mention almost certainly needing more than one success for the Search Power.


Except Watcher Spirits can't materialize so they can move objects.


I've never seen a use for a Watcher Spirit since their abilities are so pathetically poor. I mean, literally, what can they do except see things that are plain to see? A drone would be better. I stopped using Watchers when I realized how pathetic their dicepools were. An unbound F3 water/fire spirit is better.

Lol. This reminds me of Ricky from Trailer Park Boys learning how to read by following cooking recipes on food packets. Now everything needs to be in list form or he can't read it.

A Watcher is likely to fail. Six watchers, though? At +1 die per helper, up to five ... well, a 7d die pool isn't quite so shabby anymore, is it?



Drones can't go astral, for one.

As for Fire and Water spirits? They don't have the Search power; Watchers do. Granted, with a die pool of 2, they do have limitations. But they get +5 to the die pool when searching for nonliving objects, or for places.

Also: delivering messages. Playing lookout (for stuff in plain view).

Don't forget the +3 for actively looking... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I mean, it's still pretty shabby, which was my original point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I really think the watcher rules should be tweaked a fair bit. They should be very limited, but also have specific functions that really do work, no corrective optimization.

Please note that this is a +5 Threshold modifier, not a DP mod.
(SR4A @ p. 297)

Ha, that's a big difference! They'll only need like 13 more dice… if it's within 1km, not Concealed, and not behind a mana barrier.

Oh, so it is. Bugger.

.... like maybe, allow Watchers at higher than F1 ...? And then, just make them fight at half their Force (so they don't be come the do-all Spirit type) ...?

It'd be easy to just say 'they can't fight at all' or something like that. 'They all have the minds of chihuahuas'. Etc.

Glyph and _.Pax._, in our gaming group, we do both karma docking for repeated occurrences, and believable reactions for incorrect stats short term. The BEST one I have EVER SEEN was when the players caught on to this. They were stumped, and the Logic 2 troll came up with a complicated solution that he fed to the team.

Team reacted with a collective "Huh? That would NEVER work..."-type statement, despite the fact that it would have worked well. They then ignored the out-of-game solution rather than meta-gaming it, with half the team grinding their teeth because they lost a good solution, and knew it. BONUS ROLEPLAY KARMA FOR ALL... except the troll ^^

Troll and other brawler with low logic got the hint. Now complex talk from the tactician or the hacker has some predictably funny answers from the two high-school drop-outs.

Does Spirit Bane say that it also applies to the people around the character?

I am not saying that the other PCs would want to use Watcher spirits, I am questioning whether Spirit Bane actually also specifies that it directly negatively affects other characters' interactions with Watcher spirits.

In games where I was enforcing PC stats and in-game effects, one player would suggest to another player whether the second player's character would think of that tactic. The first player was roleplaying a low Logic character and the second had a high Logic character. So the second player would then announce that his character would suggest the plan, according to the first player's idea.

My players, other than the new ones, are savvy enough to have at least one high mental Attribute in order to workaround the PC stats/in-game effects linkage. The high Logic guy reasons it out and thinks it is a good plan. The high Intuition guy instinctively feels that it is a good plan.

The text


So, may be reluctant is really non-committal language, but it specifically mentions that the presence of the person with Spirit Bane effects how spirits react to the other people who choose to be around said person.


Anyway, watchers are useful for communication and keeping tabs. They are a very versatile tool for the mage who doesn't have a stable full of bound spirits.

Teamwork Tests can only add extra dice equal to the Skill of the recipient. So that one Watcher has to get at least 1 success in order to add only 1 dice to the main Watcher.

Ahh, I assumed Teamwork Test.

Thank you, NiL. That is precisely what I was thinking of.

Also, Neraph, for regular teamwork ... being limited by Skill, does not mean you need successes to benefit.

See I would love to as a GM, see a low logic player that occasionally has "sparks of brilliance" only to have the group go, "Yeah okay Grog..." (whispered: "That sounds right but grog suggested it so... lets find another method").

Rule #12 of the evil overlord's handbook.

One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.