So are we talking about bring *that* setup back, too? Cuz I'd be fine with that. Still not with grounding, but nothing wrong with limiting spirits more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It wasn't only grounding through spirits.

You could ground through anything dual-natured which included spells back in SR2 IIRC. That includes the astrally percieving adept/mage even if he doesn't have foci.

Or dual-natured paracritters, perhaps lobbed in a box at enemies.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)



-k

HA! That'll give the non-mages something to do, then.

Doesn't SR2050 do this? Some comments made me think it does, though I have not read it yet.

So some kind of mental domination on the devil rats to get em close.... then *BOOM*.

HAHAHAHA

You couldn't ground through spells, even sustained spells. Astral perception, dual nature (including materialized spirits), and active foci.

Or feed some bum some of that awakened drug that forces you to astrally perceive, even if not a magician. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't see why that works, anyway. At least dual-natured things are actually bridging the gap; perception is just looking through the glass.

No perception *IS* dual-natured. The rules make that clear someone who is astrally percieving is present on both planes and can be targetted accordingly. That's been true in all the versions I can think of.

At the risk of starting a huge fire, what's the difference between grounding a physical spell vs. just bolting them with mana spells from the astral? Aren't physical spells easier to resist to being with?

How hard is grounding? More drain / less dice?

It used to make using Foci hard for mages and forbidden for adepts, enemy materialised spirits removeable by a projected mage, and then there was the spirit bomb issue. The "dual-natured paracritter" idea is great, too.

Falconer, I'm just talking about a hypothetical distinction, not how things actually are. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Perception is indeed dual-nature in the rules, I should've been clearer.

Neko, you can't cast on anything (or affect it at all) from the astral unless it's dual-natured. Grounding sort of changes that.

Well, you can *always* attack spirits from the astral, Ryu. They're dual-natured.

My fault, you are correct. What was I thinking?

Huh. Based on the rules (as I initially read them) for Astral Combat, I assumed that you could attack people in the physical realm while on the astral (SR4A, pg 193) and then based on the spell rules you could only use Mana spells in the Astral; which meant that only Mana spells could be used to cross that barrier. I'm assuming then that the relevant text for Astral Combat is actually talking about attacking dual-natured beings too?

That's correct Neko. Only dual-natured and astral things can be attacked from the astral.

Grognards: did SR3- allow you to ground through active spells? Or only through dual-natured beings and foci?

Yep, Neko. That's why grounding bothers people: the astral/physical divide is otherwise inviolable (in principle), and some of think it should always stay that way.

Grounding was a casualty of the SR2->SR3 conversion, so you couldn't ground through anything in SR3. In SR1 "A magician in Astral Space cannot cast a spell at another spell[…]" (p91). I don't have a copy of SR2 handy to check it.

~J

Gotcha. Honestly, though, we've been playing it wrong in my group, I think I'm gonna keep doing it. I'm not gonna allow grounding, that IS too good, but my group lacks a real infiltrator, so our mage does double duty and the mana spells and astral combat have allowed her to be relevant to combat where she is really too fragile to handle face to face action (due to her build, not my GMing). And thanks for clearing that up!

It's good to hear that hasn't been abused yet, but it's hard to imagine anything more powerful than allowing a projecting mage to attack people on the physical with astral combat and mana spells. That's far *beyond* grounding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It sounds scary, but it's no more troublesome in my games than a good infiltrator sneaking up and Narcojetting a guard. ^_^

Sure, assuming it's literally impossible for the guard to see or hear that guy, his attacks ignore armor, and he can *fly* through walls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Like I said, I'm glad to hear it hasn't been a problem in your game.

In SR2, it's foci and active astral perception (SR2 149) as well.

Was it re-added in Magic in the Shadows of SR3? My roommate seems to remember something like grounding. Then again, I think his older core book is SR2, so he might be thinking of that. Figured both are possibilities, so I thought I'd ask.

With the price it has, i kinda think if some one is willing to increase the price of their katana by 6 times they have kinda earned the +1 to damage and -2 AP, especially since melee with weapons is severely UP compared to unarmed adepts.
The possible extra armor isn't even worth talking about, +3 to armor for 150k-300k+ isn't really worth it ever, especially as there's no rule about it not counting for encumbrance so only a "Body to the max" Troll can really get any use out of it(and for him the price is likely to be in the 300k+ range)