 Actual Licenses?, Let it never be said that a SIN always goes unrewarded.... |
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 Aug 3 2012, 05:08 PM
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#76
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-July 12 Member No.: 53,087  |
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jul 17 2012, 10:03 AM)  QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jul 17 2012, 04:18 AM) You might not have meant this, but just for the record, skill checks are not for run-of-the-mill situations so one shouldn't have to actually make a roll to qualify for a drivers licence. No, but having 1+ rank in the relevant skill is a reasonable prerequisite. Or else, proof of owning (and being able to use) the relevant Skillsoft, I suppose. Either way, IC it boils down to "prove you can do this without defaulting". Believe me, I know plenty of people in IRL who "default" on driving, and still managed to get a license. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Aug 1 2012, 08:15 AM) if we dont regulate it, soon...there will be Cows with Guns!....and you dont want to see THEIR DP's..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Thank you, now I've got this song stuck in my head! |
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Aug 3 2012, 09:03 PM
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#77
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,492 Joined: 19-April 12 Member No.: 51,818 |
QUOTE (Midas @ Aug 3 2012, 03:19 AM) Non-SINners have to pay for fake licences. I don't see why SINners (it IS a Negative Quality, remember) should be able to get licences for anything under the sun free of charge "just because". If you get a real license, then the Government and Corporations know about it. QUOTE [...] run a background check [...] $20 to $50 U.S., real world, as of two years ago. (g/f had to have a background check for some of her volunteer work with afterschool programs.) That's for the full monty check, Federal level and everything. |
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Aug 3 2012, 10:24 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 13-November 11 From: Vienna, Austria Member No.: 43,494 |
QUOTE (Blackbird71 @ Aug 3 2012, 06:08 PM) No, but having 1+ rank in the relevant skill is a reasonable prerequisite. Or else, proof of owning (and being able to use) the relevant Skillsoft, I suppose. Either way, IC it boils down to "prove you can do this without defaulting". Believe me, I know plenty of people in IRL who "default" on driving, and still managed to get a license. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Depends on where you live, most countries in Europe are pretty strict with driving licenses. In Austria, obtaining one costs ~1000€ and includes at least 12hrs of training with a certified instructor or 6 hrs with an instructor and driving 1000km under the supervision of an experienced driver (3000km if you are under 18). |
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Aug 3 2012, 11:49 PM
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#79
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
It's like getting a hunting license. I can get a hunting license at Walmart for some trivial amount of money in a few minutes. Ah, but you want a German Hunting License? That's just a little bit more involved...
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Aug 3 2012, 11:54 PM
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#80
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Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,089 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
QUOTE (Midas @ Aug 2 2012, 07:10 AM) The way I run it, I handwave stuff like real drivers licences, but for game balance reasons charge 600 (the same as a R6 fake, but Availability 2) for more exotic licences such as Concealed Carry, Private Investigator, Medical, Pilot etc. Concealed Carry or private healthcare and policing is an exotic license? What kind of cyberpunk do you play? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Aug 4 2012, 12:53 AM
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#81
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Sengir @ Aug 3 2012, 04:54 PM) Concealed Carry or private healthcare and policing is an exotic license? What kind of cyberpunk do you play? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Has nothing to do with Private Healthcare. Nor is it an exotic license. If you want to be a Doctor (and actually have a business as such), you MUST be licensed, at least here in America. I assume that it is the same pretty much around the world. Same for Engineers, Pilots, and Private Investigators for that matter. There are a LOT of Professions that actually require a License to work in the profession. And not all licenses are Expensive. |
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Aug 4 2012, 05:55 AM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 3 2012, 07:52 AM) Most everyone in SRworld carries a gun. It's why there are holsters noted even in the high fashion clothing descriptions. I guess Concealed Carry is not the best example, and would be specific to locations such as NY where gun control is much tighter ... Either way the point of Concealed Carry is that you can carry a hidden gun in a juristiction where you might be legally bound to carry any firearms you have openly. Bad example though ... |
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Aug 4 2012, 05:57 AM
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#83
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 26-July 12 Member No.: 53,087 |
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Aug 3 2012, 02:24 PM) Depends on where you live, most countries in Europe are pretty strict with driving licenses. In Austria, obtaining one costs ~1000€ and includes at least 12hrs of training with a certified instructor or 6 hrs with an instructor and driving 1000km under the supervision of an experienced driver (3000km if you are under 18). In the U.S., the license cost itself isn't that high (the insurance is though), but there is a requirement of a drivers' training course, hours with an instructor, and hours with an experienced driver. That still doesn't stop a large number of people who don't know what they're doing from getting on the road - they learn enough to get through the tests, then promptly forget it all once the license is in hand. |
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Aug 4 2012, 06:18 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Aug 3 2012, 04:07 PM) Because there's the level of realism that is part of the game rules as a base that is just enough to keep things moderately sane while still maintaining the fun of the game, and then there's that which is 'super-duper-hyper-deluxe-ultra-realism' which does nothing but siphon the fun out and drain more money out of the characters' pockets (and there are enough things which do that as it is--really too many to be able to effectively save up for the good stuff with the pay levels a lot of people on the forums, both of them, advocate). If you handwave Licences for fake SINs at your table because you consider it "ultra-realism", then that is your perogative. There is no more book-keeping for buying and noting down a real licence for your real SIN as there is for buying and noting down a fake licence for your fake SIN. I really don't see a problem here. As for taking money out of character's pockets, the real licence is a one-time deal, and unless you screw up royally and have to burn your real SIN you are good to go. It is periodically having to burn those fake SINs (with all their associated licences) that take much more out of characters pockets. Just the price of doing business, chummer. |
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Aug 4 2012, 06:42 AM
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#85
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Aug 3 2012, 09:03 PM) If you get a real license, then the Government and Corporations know about it. $20 to $50 U.S., real world, as of two years ago. (g/f had to have a background check for some of her volunteer work with afterschool programs.) That's for the full monty check, Federal level and everything. Yes they do. So what? I agree that the majority of real licences (and associated background checks) would probably not cost as much as 600 newyen and would in reality vary greatly depending what the licence is for. Some (such as Medical or Legal) might conecivably cost more. The reason I just charge 600 and have done with it is, as I stated earlier, for game balance reasons, and I freely admit it is an abstraction. 600 newyen would get a non-SINner a R6 fake licence (availability notwithstanding), and even then might be prone to detection (please, let's not reopen that old DS can-of-worms), so the low availability and bullet-proofness of the real licence is still a better deal than for the R6 fake licence that the unfortunate non-SINner has to make do with if he can get one in the first place, but there you go. This is the house rule I use, so you are free to handwave real licences (like All4) or write up a list of different licences and costs at your table, whatever floats your boat. |
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Aug 4 2012, 06:46 AM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (Blackbird71 @ Aug 4 2012, 05:57 AM) That still doesn't stop a large number of people who don't know what they're doing from getting on the road - they learn enough to get through the tests, then promptly forget it all once the license is in hand. My old driving instructor told me that you start learning how to drive once you have the licence ... and yeah, don't get me started about idiots on the road! |
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Aug 4 2012, 06:59 AM
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#87
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Running Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,003 Joined: 3-May 11 From: Brisbane Australia Member No.: 29,391 |
QUOTE (Midas @ Aug 4 2012, 04:46 PM) My old driving instructor told me that you start learning how to drive once you have the licence ... and yeah, don't get me started about idiots on the road! You don't have to tell me I went to the US a few years back and 99.9% of people were driving on the wrong side of the road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) |
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Aug 4 2012, 01:38 PM
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#88
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Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,089 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 4 2012, 01:53 AM) Has nothing to do with Private Healthcare. Nor is it an exotic license. If you want to be a Doctor (and actually have a business as such), you MUST be licensed, at least here in America. I assume that it is the same pretty much around the world. Same for Engineers, Pilots, and Private Investigators for that matter. There are a LOT of Professions that actually require a License to work in the profession. And not all licenses are Expensive. I meant healthcare not as the insurance, but as the actual care for one's health...which seems to be mostly deregulated, or at least nobody enforces those regulations for the gazillion of street docs. And private investigators are not even regulated right now, "investigators" or "detectives" do not have any privileges or duties above those of a normal citizen and accordingly everybody can call himself that. So I'd handle many of these licenses more like certifications: Sure everybody can practice medicine, but having an actual degree or other certification of skills might draw more customers... |
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Aug 4 2012, 02:42 PM
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#89
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Midas @ Aug 3 2012, 11:18 PM) If you handwave Licences for fake SINs at your table because you consider it "ultra-realism", then that is your perogative. There is no more book-keeping for buying and noting down a real licence for your real SIN as there is for buying and noting down a fake licence for your fake SIN. I really don't see a problem here. As for taking money out of character's pockets, the real licence is a one-time deal, and unless you screw up royally and have to burn your real SIN you are good to go. It is periodically having to burn those fake SINs (with all their associated licences) that take much more out of characters pockets. Just the price of doing business, chummer. Actually, Most (it not all) licensed professionals have to renew their license periodically. Some have a 1 Yerar Re-licensing, others are longer. *shrug* |
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Aug 4 2012, 02:44 PM
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#90
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Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 3 2012, 11:59 PM) You don't have to tell me I went to the US a few years back and 99.9% of people were driving on the wrong side of the road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) In the US, it the remaining 0.1% that you have to worry about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Aug 4 2012, 11:59 PM
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#91
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Running Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,003 Joined: 3-May 11 From: Brisbane Australia Member No.: 29,391 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 5 2012, 12:42 AM) Actually, Most (it not all) licensed professionals have to renew their license periodically. Some have a 1 Yerar Re-licensing, others are longer. *shrug* I know here that Doctors in Oz have ongoing training they have to do to keep their license so the cost is mainly time - so a day job quality would be appropriate to roll your training in with a little street doctoring. |
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Aug 6 2012, 07:35 AM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 4 2012, 06:59 AM) You don't have to tell me I went to the US a few years back and 99.9% of people were driving on the wrong side of the road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) I take it that 0.1% was you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) |
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Aug 6 2012, 07:42 AM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 4 2012, 02:42 PM) Actually, Most (it not all) licensed professionals have to renew their license periodically. Some have a 1 Yerar Re-licensing, others are longer. *shrug* Yes, I believe they do. Saying that, renewal of a licence is probably a far more automatic process than receiving one in the first place (they're probably just checking that you have fullfilled any requirements such as minimum hours of work, haven't killed anybody etc) so any licence renewal fee is probably pretty nominal. Given that SR4's licence system is pretty abstracted anyway, I would handwave any licence renewal fees as included in lifestyle costs. |
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Aug 6 2012, 07:55 AM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 662 Joined: 25-May 11 Member No.: 30,406 |
QUOTE (Sengir @ Aug 4 2012, 01:38 PM) I meant healthcare not as the insurance, but as the actual care for one's health...which seems to be mostly deregulated, or at least nobody enforces those regulations for the gazillion of street docs. And private investigators are not even regulated right now, "investigators" or "detectives" do not have any privileges or duties above those of a normal citizen and accordingly everybody can call himself that. So I'd handle many of these licenses more like certifications: Sure everybody can practice medicine, but having an actual degree or other certification of skills might draw more customers... I would imagine some street docs would be "legal", as in licenced, practices, while others would be backstreet "illegal" operations. SINless can't be choosers, although I am sure that most runners would look into rumours about a shadow clinic before sucking on that general anaesthetic ... Interesting that you say there is no such thing as a PI licence IRL, although I suspect it may depend on which country you are talking about. For the game, I will pretty much let my PCs purchase licences for anything they decide to ask for; it may just be window dressing, but in my game showing a licence along with a plausible excuse can help legitimize their reason for being somewhere they normally shouldn't (+2DP for supporting evidence, social skills table). |
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Aug 9 2012, 03:32 AM
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#95
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 5-August 12 Member No.: 53,111 |
Somebody upthread was asking about the rules for licenses found in older editions. SR3 handled weapon permits as:
To represent dealing with the bureaucracy, make an Etiquette test vs. the weapon's normal Availability, +2. (Remember that SR3 has variable target numbers, so this is changing the TNs.) Base time to get the permit is the same as the base time to find the weapon. Cost is 5% of the weapon's cost for a permit to own, and 10% for a permit to own and carry. You must provide an ID, and if it's fake it has to pass a normal ID check. Finally, having a permit gives you more options when looking for the weapon itself, and give a -2 modifier to the Availabiity of the weapon. Permits are only available for weapons with the not in the Legality Code. (Basically, plain-jane pistols (heavy or light) and hunting rifles or shotguns. No SMGs, MPs, assault weapons, sniper weapons, and certainly no heavy weapons of any kind.) |
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Aug 9 2012, 06:11 AM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 7-July 08 From: Germany Member No.: 16,124 |
QUOTE (Vagabond Elf @ Aug 9 2012, 05:32 AM) Cost is 5% of the weapon's cost for a permit to own, and 10% for a permit to own and carry. Honestly, that never made much sense to me. Why would a license for, let's say, the Fichetti Security 500 (400¥) cost more than a license for the Colt American L36 (350¥) with almost the same game stats (one round difference in mag capacity)? Or a license for a custom gunsmith-handtuned hardchromed 1500¥ Ruger Super Warhawk vs a license for the 300¥ basic model? When I ran SR3 we agreed to pretty much handwave that into non-military weapons (that is handguns, rifles and shotguns without burstfire or fully-automatic modes) being available to anyone with a clean SIN (rating test for fake SINs). Same for CCW licenses. Cost subsumed under lifestyle. |
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Aug 9 2012, 08:00 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 558 Joined: 21-May 08 Member No.: 15,997 |
It makes sense to me; it basically means they're taxing the weapons at 5% or 10%.
But seriously, only those weapons are legal? Harsh. (Where is that info from, by the way?) |
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Aug 10 2012, 01:32 AM
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#98
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 5-August 12 Member No.: 53,111 |
QUOTE (EKTB81) Honestly, that never made much sense to me. Why would a license for, let's say, the Fichetti Security 500 (400¥) cost more than a license for the Colt American L36 (350¥) with almost the same game stats (one round difference in mag capacity)? Or a license for a custom gunsmith-handtuned hardchromed 1500¥ Ruger Super Warhawk vs a license for the 300¥ basic model? For the same reason that one extra round in the mag costs an extra 50¥? I don't even bother with that; Generic Light Pistols that all have the same stats also have the same price, and I use the names solely for verisimilitude. Though I can't recall ever having to make a decision on a weapon permit... QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Aug 9 2012, 01:00 PM) It makes sense to me; it basically means they're taxing the weapons at 5% or 10%. But seriously, only those weapons are legal? Harsh. (Where is that info from, by the way?) It's from the SR3 main book. Amusingly, all the melee weapons you might expect to be legal, like a simple knife, have legality codes - which means they're not, actually, though the TNs are fairly high so a cop isn't likely to decide to hassle you about it; but there's no way to get a permit for them. You can get licensed to carry an 11mm magnum pistol with a cybernetic targeting system (ie, smartlink), but you can't carry a simple folding knife. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Aug 10 2012, 03:43 AM
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#99
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Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,492 Joined: 19-April 12 Member No.: 51,818 |
QUOTE (Vagabond Elf @ Aug 9 2012, 09:32 PM) Amusingly, all the melee weapons you might expect to be legal, like a simple knife, have legality codes - which means they're not, actually, [...] there's no way to get a permit for them. Which is pretty true to life. Here in Connecticut, I can (and do) own quite large knives, even swords. However, if I carry one even one step over my own property line? I'm at risk of being arrested, charged with possessionof an unlawful deadly weapon, and given a "vacation" that involves orange jumpsuits, soap-on-a-rope, and "special playtime" with Bubba the Love Troll. (Actual law: any knife over 4" long is prohibited for carry, concealed or otherwise. No permits exist. Tough luck.) |
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Aug 11 2012, 08:15 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 4-August 12 From: Cincinnati, OH Member No.: 53,107 |
There were rules for this in 1E (in the Shadowtech book) and the licenses scaled in price based on the Legality category and class or cost of the weapon/ware/equipment. Categories also varied based on legal jurisdiction.
Some examples from the Shadowtech book: [ Spoiler ]
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