At present my face uses a suppressed Ruger thunderbolt as her primary weapon, with a Remington 950 as a sniping weapon (It's easier to licence than a proper sniper rifle), a silenced Morrissey Elan as a fallback and a tazer for daily carry.
These toys are all well and good (Easy to licence and conceal, which is great for a Face), but lately we've been getting involved in some combat heavy runs and I'm thinking of upgrading to something with a little more oomf. I have the full firearms group at level 4 so I've got quite a range of options.

I'm hoping that the combined wisdom of dumpshock will be able to help me decide.

Note: This weapon does not need to be concealable, disposable, or even subtle. Those roles are filled by my other guns. What I need from this one is firepower and tactical flexibility.

Here are a couple of the weapons I've been considering so far:

Onotari Xfactor 3, modded for recoil comp and with external smartgun.
Strengths: Additional clip and scope as standard, with an underbarrel shotgun to load with shock-lock rounds for breaching.
Weaknesses: No built-in recoil compensation, no internal smartgun.

Ares Alpha/Bravo/Sierra, with maxed out recoil compensation. classic.
Strengths: full recoil compensation, internal smartgun as standard, either underbarrel grenade launcher or underbarrel CC weapon for tactical flexibility, comparatively common, relatively cheap.
Weaknesses: Not many obvious ones.

Ares HVAR/Shiawase Arms tactical model 73, maxed out recoil compensation.
Strengths: High Velocity weapon, good ammunition capacity, good integral recoil, integral smartgun.
Weaknesses: sub-par damage, lacks tactical flexibility.

Ares HVBR, modded for full auto and recoil compensation.
Strengths: High Velocity weapon, good ammunition capacity, very good integral recoil, high base damage, integral smartgun, long range.
Weaknesses: Cannot mount accessories on or under barrel (reducing maximum recoil compensation via accessories), expensive, distinctive weapon.

Ultimax 150, with gas vent system, personalized grip and external smartgun.
Strengths: Powered slide mount, integral commlink, safe target system (very important, as the character is SURGED with the berserker.), good base damage, good range.
Weaknesses: The integral commlink is frankly crap, no full auto, very high price tag.

Ingram Smartgun X, outfitted for recoil compensation.
Strengths: Comes with an integral suppressor and Internal smartgun. oh, and it's cheap.
Weaknesses: short range, low damage, limited ammunition capacity, cannot get full recoil compensation.

FN P93 Praetor, maxed out recoil compensation and external smartgun.
Strengths: Good recoil compensation options, good ammunition capacity, flashlight, cheap.
Weaknesses: short range, low damage, no internal smartgun.

Izom Armaments RP 63-A, modded with improved recoil compensation.
Strengths: excellent standard options, highly configurable, concealable, great damage for class.
Weaknesses: Very short range, Very expensive, no full auto... and butt ugly to boot.

Any other suggestions, things I've overlooked? All of the options have strengths and weaknesses, and I'm having a hard time deciding. One day I'll have a wall lined with all of these of course, but which should i get first?

I have always been a fan of the Hand Cannon...

High-Powered Ruger Super Warhawk
HP Modification (2), Increased Cylinder (1), Personalized Grip (1), Reduced Barrel (1), Smartgun System (1).
Stats: 8p, -3 AP, Has a Slightly Shorter Range, but better Concealability, than a standard Heavy Pistol.

Not too Bad

I think you're overlooking how useful mods are, and it's making you overvalue bad guns that come with modifications.

Based on your criteria, you want a battle rifle for sure. You don't want the HVBR, since without a source of inherent RC (like a cyberarm with a gyromount, foot anchors, very high strength, etc), you can't hit the magic number of 11 RC due to its no barrel or underbarrel accessories drawback; since you don't care about subtle, what you want is a gyrostabilizer harness.

Instead, take a different battle rifle: the AVC 7.62. Mod it like so:
Add a Gas-Vent 3 accessory [barrel]
Add a Gyrostabilizer Harness [underbarrel]
Add an External Smartlink Accessory [top]
Add a Shock Pad [-]
Modify with Firing Selection Change: FA [1]
Modify with High Velocity [2]
Modify with Extended Clip: 100-round drum [2]
Modify with Barrel Extension

There you go. It's as cheap as you can manage without sacrificing quality (unfortunately, HV is expensive, but it's worth every nuyen). It's pricey for a gun, but in the grand scheme of things it's still not much money. It's extremely unsubtle, but it can keep up HV fire for 9 IPs, it has excellent base damage, and range is sporting rifle+10%.

I don't suppose you have any skill in Heavy Weapons and happen to have a contact that sells weapons? Ares Thunderstruck all the way then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'd suggest the Shiawase Arms Tactical Model 73 from GH2: With 100 ammo you shouldn't have to reload in quite a while, even if all you're doing is suppressing.

Now, it only deals 5P, but it lets you shoot two long bursts. Get a gyro harness and you should be nearly all set for RC (with the other mods).

There's also that 7P AP-2 Assault Rifle in MilSpecTech2, the AN-74? It's only SA, which you can mod, and it's kinda pricey but it's harder hitting. That said, you could probably do better with a generic Battle Rifle.

Actually, one other option, maybe: does your GM subscribe to the idea that the High-Powered Ammo to-hit penalty can be negated by recoil compensation? If so, you might be able to get somewhere with the Onotari Urban Hunter instead, although you will be paying a significant amount more money for it.

Do you need it for stopping power, or suppression? For suppression I favor the Colt with the 40-round box (forget the actual model name). Increase the ammo capacity and you'll be keeping heads down for a while.

If you're not caring about concealability, I'd just toss the SMGs out the window. An AR or BR will always have higher damage and more penetration.

BTW, I love seeing other folks use what I consider the best sniper rifle in the game: Remington 950. Sure it doesn't have quite the same range as a true sniper rifle, but the fact that no one will blink twice at a hunting weapon combined with the nasty damage/penetration value more than makes up for it. Besides, sporting rifle ranges are usually more than sufficient, especially with increased barrel length.

FA mod with Extended Magazine, as well as Sound Suppressor and Personalized Grip for the Ruger Thunderbolt is quite nice, too. Fill it with APDS and you got quite some punch without sacrificing concealability at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

It's a SS weapon making it exceedingly inefficient. Given 5 IPs you will get 5 attacks. Given 5 IPs you will get 10 attacks with many sniper rifles and most battle rifles. The only trait about it that makes it desirable is it's profile. The AP and ranges are equivalent to the average battle rifle and the addition of BF/FA on a battle rifle makes the +1 damage a moot point in most situations.

Sporting rifles typically get you 8P/-1AP with SS firing modes or 7P/-1AP with SA. Battle Rifles, IIRC, tend to be 7P/-1AP with SA/BF/FA and 7P/-2AP with SA. Sporting rifles also tend to have well under half the ammo capacity of a SA only Battle Rifle.

Forcing you to slow down on your shooting is hardly inefficient as it gives you that extra action to take aim, a very useful thing for snipers, and a sort of in-game excuse for why SS rifles are traditionally considered more accurate than SAs. Just anecdotally, I can attest that it is better to have more accurate (called) shots than more lead flying in general. The 950 is 8P/-1, making it superior in stopping power compared to an average BR.

You have a point on the magazine capacity, but runners are often at a distinct disadvantage during extended combats as the larger number of poorly trained whathaveyous can end up cutting off the smaller party's maneuverability, so if you burn through the short number of rounds quickly, you might have more problems than a simple reload action to deal with. Plus, if you smart it, reloading becomes a breeze. You lose that aim action, but can still fire that round.

But yeah, the profile is the major factor here. There aren't a lot of weapons you can send to your next contract's location without drawing much attention.

Also, the Terracotta Arms Caravan is a better sporting rifle than the Remington 950.

So, you've got the subtlety covered and now you want something with which to unleash MAXIMUM FUCK, huh?


I have a question for you, then: on these "high-combat" runs you wind up on where your subtlety is wasted, is it of the traditional "penetrate deep into X corporate building and corridor-stroll through the armed guards" variety, or is the terrain more open?

Sauce? I seem to remember the name, but I don't know which book its from...

The Big Book of No Ares Products. AKA, Gun Heaven 2.

Ah, good, I do have it (just not on my work puter :/). Thanks much! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The average battle rifle permits burst fire, making it effectively a 10P/-1AP weapon with short bursts or a 13P/-1AP weapon with long burst (only 7P for the purpose of staging physical to stun). Take Aim is most valuable at eliminating range penalties since you get +1/+3/+6 dice depending on range. However, if you have the Hawkeye PQ then the BR user can engage up to 250m away with no penalty, 500m at -1, and 750 at -3. The extreme range at -3 is not too severe of a penalty and perfectly reasonable to ignore for a higher fire rate and a -1 penalty is pretty much ignorable making 500m your engagement range without needing to take aim. The improved range finder causes the penalties to be 0/0/-2/-5, again making long range fairly ignorable.



Magazine capacity is more about supporting BF/FA firing modes, which for a sniper type, are probably being utilized to up the damage by +2 or +5. It doesn't do you much good to have a 12 round capacity on a rifle and burn through a magazine in two initiative passes.



If you're actually sniping, rather than carrying it with you, then profile is of a significantly lessened value since you will be farther away and have more selectivity regarding your positioning (meaning you can choose a location you can get to that avoids surveillance). If carrying it inside a compound then profile is of lesser concern since it's more a problem of YOU being spotted than your weapon.

Don't get me wrong, Sporting rifles are good weapons precisely because they're significantly cheaper and easier to get a hold of than battle rifles or sniper rifles but battle rifles and sniper rifles will out perform sporting rifles but they also cost more and harder to obtain.

Start with this; the P93 is a pretty good weapon on it's own, with a 50-round helical clip. Start with the Electronic Firing model, and stick with the standard-grade flashlight.

Now, let's make this gun not just "pretty good", but BADASS and T3H S3XY at the same time, too.

• First off, we'll make that Smartgun system internal (costs 1 capacity);
• Then let's add a Gas-Vent 3, so you can rock the long bursts a little easier (costs 2 capacity);
• We can also put a Foregrip in there, for another point of RC (costs 1 capacity);
• Lastly, we'll spring for "Custom Look" at R2, so that if you HAVE to wave a big-arsed gun around, at least you can do it with STYLE (costs 1 capacity);
• (And if you need it, there's 1 more mod slot available for Metahuman Customisation)

Empty, the gun now costs 2,950¥ - not cheap, BUT: it's got 6 points of recoil compensation with the stock unfolded, 5 without, making long bursts (orpairs of short bursts) much more practical.

Also, not only does it plain out look "t3h s3xy", it gives you two bonus dice for Intimidation tests - making it another tool you can opt to use for your Face role, as well as for shooting things.

Shotguns are criminally undervalued, flechette rounds even more so. Have a combat shotty with flechettes on hand for anytime you're going up against superior numbers in close quarters. Adjust your choke properly and you can wound or drop entire parties in just one or two passes, depending on position.

~Umi

Flechettes are utterly useless unless the other guy is completely unarmored. And by that I mean "does not have so much as a single point of relevant armor." If he does, you just got whammied because your +2 DV got crotch-kicked by his armor getting a free +5 boost.

I would say that Take Aim is most useful as a way of reducing/eliminating the Called Shot (head) penalty, especially since (although the language in the book is less than explicit) Called Shot allows you to ignore the rule about losing the aim bonus if you take a Free Action.

And who takes range penalties? Even an Adept with no 'ware can buy a scope and ignore the penalty altogether with a simple action... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'm not sure what the first part is talking about. Dice pool penalties from called shot are not range penalties so Taking Aim doesn't impact them at all. Take Aim only eliminates the range penalty of 0/-1/-3/-6 (natural), 0/0/-2/-5 (imp ranged finder), or 0/0/-1/-3 (Hawkeye).

It's all about action economy. You ignore them with a simple action and you're slinging one round downrange for every two the person who accepts them can do.

I'm confused as heck. Take Aim gives you a +1 die pool/round spent aiming (max bonus equaling half the appropriate skill). That can reduce range penalties if desired, or, as specified in the action's description, if you combine a Take Aim action with a magnification scope, eliminates range penalties altogether. The point is that Take Aim gives you bonus to your attack die pool. If you're like my sniper character, you always Take Aim from image magnification when at long range, and at short range you take aim to mitigate the penalties for taking a called shot.

Since you can only fire once from a SS weapon in a round, it makes sense when sniping from range to spend an action to Take Aim through a scope, eliminate the penalty entirely, then fire the weapon.

Besides, snipers who fire multiple shots from a fixed position are easy to zero in on. So what you view as a strength, I take to be a massive weakness. As a GM, I'd certainly rule it easier to pin point burst or semi-automatic fire, even when suppressed, over a single shot. And that's why my snipers in CoD always have Extreme Conditioning or whichever perk makes you move faster for the specific title in the franchise (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)




Actually, its still valid with targets that have up to 4 armor value, as you could take a Called Shot to reduce the Armor to 0. Still, not as useful as a slug and a +4 DV.

You can do both Take Aim action types. You always eliminate range penalties first (since that is equivalent to a Take Aim for +1) then you Take Aim for +1. The problem is that Take Aim is a simple action and you have a finite number of simple actions. Each simple action you spend Taking Aim is a simple action you're NOT using to attack. There are acceptable levels of penalty to a character and not every dice bonus needs to be utilized. For example, I have a 20 dice sniper. Is it worth attacking once a round to negate a -1 range penalty when I'm attacking from 450m out? No. 19 dice is very good and 17 dice on the second attack to attack a second character is still very much worth it. Is it worth it at 700m to negate a -3 penalty? Maybe. 17/15 dice on two attacks may be too low. Otherwise if I followed your strategy I get 1 attack a round at 20 dice or an even low rate of fire if I want more than 20 dice.

Firing multiple shots from the same position is only a problem if there are people left alive long enough to respond to your fire. It's all a tactical consideration. Suppression is a penalty against the check to notice the weapon firing. The problem, which some GMs may not apply, is that even if you've spotted muzzle flash from the firing weapon, you've seen the muzzle flash. It may give you a better shot at actually seeing the sniper but you still haven't seen him (you've seen his weapon firing) so returning fire is still a blind fire test (-6 penalty and you use intuition instead of agility on your attack).

Further, at the ranges at which a sniper is typically engaging, it will require multiple combat turns for any opponents to move within range unless they have aerial or ground vehicle support. In all these cases, the foes must maintain line of sight with the sniper to avoid losing him which means the sniper is very able to take shots against them as they approach or will have ample opportunity to move to another location and conceal himself. Once again, this is where the benefit of things like improved range finder and Hawkeye shine. You chase a sniper who has hawkeye through the woods? Well, if I have my battle rifle and I'm engaging from 500m out and you start approaching towards me I will be RUNNING away and still firing two shots an IP at you at a grand 17/15 dice pool for the two attacks. Unless the foes are fielding assault rifles or better weapons, they'll probably all be felled before they're ever even a potential threat to me. Or to reference the concept in its classical term. Kiting.

Still confused...

"Each Take Aim gives you a +1 dice pool modifier to the Attack Test" - SR4A, pg 148.

"Take Aim may also be used to line up a shot using an image magnification system (see p. 150); in this case the +1 Take Aim bonus does not apply (but range modifiers are neutralized)." One paragraph below the above sentence.

If you have image mag, and you spend a Simple Action to Take Aim, then you have no penalty for range. Yes, that's only really useful and Long and Extreme range, since -1/+1 offsets itself at Medium.

If it is FA capable, which the average battle rifle is not (though weapon modifications can take care of that part, of course), otherwise no long bursts are possible.

Bye
Thanee

Lets see...

It varies, but the last few times I've found myself trying desperately to compensate for lack of firepower have been: A smash and grab against an Ancients drug shipment, A kill mission against another runner team, and a fight with lone star.

In answer to other questions/comments, in no particular order:
@Umidori: Shotguns are considerably undervalued, i agree, but ATM we have two shotgun wielders in the group so I think it's safe to say we've got that covered.
@_Pax._: I'm afraid I'm not really an intimidation type face. I plan to pick up the skill eventually, but for now most of my facing takes advantage of my Glamour PQ. very interesting idea, but honestly if I was going to take a gun for scare factor I'd get a personalized Krime Stopper.
Re: Remington 950. We have a dedicated sniper in the group, I just help out when needed. SS doesn't matter most of the time as I use the extra simple action to take aim and lose the range penalties, or else to spot for hidden targets.
Re: Gyromount. It's a nice toy when you have time to set up, but to be honest I'd prefer to be able to ready my gun at a moment's notice.

In general: I know I'm not going to match the 'Kill Maim Burn' combat specialists in a fight, so after reading everyone's advice and putting some more thought into the matter I've decided that getting as much tactical flexibility as i can from one gun (Lest I turn into a walking arsenal) is probably the way to go. Since most fights where I'm feeling underwhelming are at relatively short range (10-50m) I'm thinking either assault rifle or SMG (If I do go with an SMG it'll be suppressed. At least that way I'll be less of a target than the guy with the full auto drum fed shotgun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). Do you guys mind if i post a couple of ideas here for critique over the next few days?