I was talking more in contrast with previous Editions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I really like this idea. If you don't mind I'm gonna borrow this.

Noticing magic in use is one thing I do plan on house ruling in that the next time I run, I fully intend to add a requirement to be Astrally perceiving in order to notice spellcasting at all unless the caster has a geas that requires the use of 'magic words' or gestures.

As Dreadlord said, it is the power of the magic not the magic user that gets noticed. I wouldn't be worried about MAG 12+ great dragons though, like Harlequin and other immortal elves they have access to better and subtler magic than PC mages could ever dream of.


While you are free to house rule as you want at your table, I would strongly advise against this. Would you give a sammie an invisible gun that he could kill people at will with nobody able to see who it was doing the killing? The fact that spellcasting (esp high force spells) can be detected is necessary for game balance, and IMHO removing it would turn the game more into MagicRun than it currently is.

I have a problem with this, as it seems to imply that ritual casting is absolutely imperceptible.

So there are no sparkles in SR3. I can't check 1st and 2nd editions, because I do not have the books.

Sure go ahead.

That is not totally true, as you can possibly spot the spotter or the team members. It probably is the intention of ritual spellcasting to be nigh imperceptible though:
Don't forget that even with the sparkles you can only notice something "around the caster". This hardly applies to ritual spellcasting anyways, especially not the spotter.

However, in Ritual Spellcasting, the TARGET notices the magic building up around him. Seems counter to what you are saying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
We have always allowed "physically relevant" build up of mana, as that seems to be what is implied in the text. Sparkles aside (which we do not use unless the caster likes that visual), spellcasting is noticeable. Does not really matter how. We have a fairy like spellcaster whose physical manifestations sound like tinkling fairy bells. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If he's in the box and you can't see him, then he can't see you. So the only way to tell if there is a mage in the box is to make sure it's installed with a cyanide release device based on the decay of an atom and observe if the mage is dead or alive.

You may want to look at the test again. It is Assensing + Intuition (20 – spell Force, 1 hour). Unless the target has Assensing, no roll is permitted as you cannot default on Assensing. I was only saying that magic is undetectable by mundane perception.

Every Manabolt, Heal and Increase attribute casting.

Again the caster provides the stimulus not the magic. Even if you use the new concept that magic can be perceived mundanely the stimulus only happens around the caster not around the target. So the manabolt is out unless someone can perceive the caster. Anyway the targets should feel something of the spell's effect even if they missed that the caster did something besides touching them.

Do you prefer a game in which magic cannot be noticed by mundanes at all?

It's about not what I prefer, but what all previous editions said and only half a sentence in SR4A contradicts it. Mana or Magic is imperceptible to mundane senses. The effects of magic can possibly be perceived (fireball, illusions etc.). Regardless what the spell achieves any mundane can perceive what the mage does to cast a spell (gestures, chanting if a caster does that) and what happens to the caster because of casting (look of exertion, heavy breathing, beads of sweat etc.)

I get all that, but I'm asking do you, personally and in your own opinion, prefer a Shadowrun in which magic cannot be noticed by mundanes?

Yes.

Yes, quite. Magic should be the scary, unknown quantity to mundanes, and making it easy to identify the magic-user shoots that in the foot.

The awakening happened ~60 years ago. While there are a bunch of unknowns to it, a lot of research would have happened on countering it and noticing it.

Throws up an interesting Question:
Glo-Moss. How does it react to spellcasting?
What happens if you cast right next to it?
What happens if you cast at something right next to it?
What happens if you cast and half way to the target there is some of it?

LOL. Only if the mage is a cat shaman. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Back in the old days, I interpreted the rules as allowing very discreet spellcasting. My GM thought that was a little overpowered. He even made it so that astrally perceiving was obvious to mundanes. This thread really got me thinking, so I'll post a couple of thoughts here.

The (6 - Force) rule could be modified so that some traditions have more noticeable casting than others. For example, a shaman might have a more obvious casting method, but gets more dice in the deal. If you wanted to create a new tradition called elementalist, then they might get more dice for one category of spell, but they get cast with visible effects of the particular element, like flames, fog, or dust.

A rationale for mundanes being able to notice casting is that crossing the barrier between the astral and physical planes is visible for an instant. Mundane things are seen on the astral plane as shadowy, and magical things crossing into the physical plane could similarly be seen on the physical plane as unnatural. Note that the mundanes can't see the spell or the magic, just the crossing into the physical plane at the moment the spell is cast. Or you could go all out and say that magical things that affect the physical plane have a visible manifestation.

I personally always felt that choosing to be a shaman over a hermetic should come with a free animal totem (mentor spirit) since you get the shamanic mask anyway which gives you a penalty and no actual bonus to compensate.