Which still does not fix the Response Issue. *shrug*

Not necessarily. Might be a standard procedure if they enter a corp compound within that hour. The corp desn't want malicious hackers piggybacking in exactly the same way to steal paydata or the company presudent's schedule for his trip to the airport. And quite a number of your Joe and Jill Salary(wo)men will likely be passing such checkpoints within the hour, and if your agent is stashed at a transport hub many within minutes.


I will concede that at a busy public place there may be enough lower salary targets around with an off-the-shelf RI OS, but there will also be quite a number of people (say 50%) running higher Firewalls (and increasing Firewall is both desirable and inexpensive for your average salaryman).
I think you are out on some of the salaries though, to run a Middle lifestyle with a spouse and two kids, putting a bit aside for holidays and hospital bills and emergencies is going to have to earn more like 8K a month, half that at around 4K a month if both parents work lowlier jobs.
It is always the poor that get targeted by thieves ...


This I understand. What you don't seem to understand the time this would take. Let's say for sake of argument 50% of passersby are using Firewall 3+. Your protocol for the hacking agent's scan would likely yield some false negatives, so it may take a few attempts to find a suitable target.
Next you have to hack in and create your admin account (+6 threshold). Again there is statistically significant chance of detection, so some of these attempts will end in failure.

Once you have your admin acount, your cloned agent double replicates itself and all the programmes it needs into the commlink. Given the slow Response of such commlinks this may take time, and could be aborted if the target wandered out of mutual signal range before the agent had fully downloaded.

The process is as fast as the slowest of these above processes, and I reckon 1 successful completed hack per minute isn't a bad rate of return. Even at 2 successful hacks a minute, you are making 120 hacks/hour for 600 nuyen. That's a lot of hours (25 to be precise) to get your 15K.

Next, to prevent the account being traced you use an offshore account with a oily haired banker that takes a 30% cut to stonewall the authorities with talk of client confidentiality and lawyers if the transaction gets traced. You're down to 10.5K. Given the cash you have burned in the disposable commlink, the agent(s), the (presumably cracked) programmes they need to accomplish their tasks you are probably not left with too much loose change for your efforts.

Assuming that all that time your stashed commlink were undiscovered all this time, and that none of the commlinks that detected a hacking attempt reported it to the mall security/cops in all this time ... which seems like pretty slim odds to me.


These two things, a mass small-value hack and shadowrunning are two separate things, and the latter is a strawman which has no bearing on the former.
I have news for you, in that you are not the first person to have that eureka moment about a pocket hacker and a mass hack. Corp kids may have tried it, other hard up hackers may have tried it, 2 bit thieves may try it. Corp mall security and police in busy public areas probably deal with it on a daily basis. Hence the randon sweeps and monitoring of commlinks in hidden mode, hence someone whose commlink rolled statistically well and detected the attempted hack going to the mall cop or beat cop to report it.
It is not the amount of money that is the issue (although 15K a day over time is probably comparable in cost if not more expensive than the prototype steal), in both shadowrunning and mass hacks it is the amount of time before you are discovered. With shadowruns it is 10 minutes once the alarm is raised before the HTRT arrive, with a mass hack in a busy place maybe it is a matter of 1 or 2 hours. Good luck recouping the money you burned on the commlink and agent you burned in that time frame.

Mutual signal range is "yes" if you're inside a city. You can relay off a dozen nodes if you need to, and do so without interruption (it's handled automatically by the matrix subsystems). So not really a concern.

I've made fun of this frequently. "Oh, there's a signal 0 camera at the end of the hall 40 meters away and I can't get closer? Fine, I bounce my signal off the vending machine, the water fountain, and the RFID chip in that guy's underwear. Voila, mutual signal range. And my response isn't even effected."

Rolling 4 dice, versus a threshold of 5? I find that remarkably hard to believe.

So, your intrusion attempt is preceded by a couple Analyze rolsl to gt the matrix attributes. And you don't even TRY, if the firewall is over 2 or maybe 3.


IMO, "middle lifestyle with two dependents and useful savings does not, to me, speak of the dystopian environment Shadowrun is supposed to be. The vast majority of shadowrun denizens, legal and illegal alike, "barely get by".


Obviously, I disagree with your assessment. I believe 3-4 per minute (since it shouldn't take more than two combat turns - five entire IPs - for the hack to succeed, and while the replciation is underway, the NEXT hack can already begin).


Full stop. No, it's not a 30% cut. It's 100¥ to have the account for a month, no SIN required (Unwired, page _). Since the account will be closed and dead within 48 hours, with all the funds transferred out, you don't care what questions get asked in a week.


Keep in mind, the programs are a once-per-lifetime purchase. They can all be loaded onto the next commlink used for the next mass hack.


Nope, no strawman involved. Everything that anyone has asserted as "why it won't work", would in turn render Shadowrunning impossible. BEcause if they do such things for smallfry crimes, they will do at least the same thing to prevent multi-million nuyen crimes.

This is, quite simply, a place where the setting requires the players to also grasp the Idiot Ball, in the interests of making the setting continue to work at all.

?
Technos have their own stats, independent of the node they are in.

Then go, take a math schoolbook and read about "Binomial distribution"

Or use the excel function called "BINOMDIST"

either
=BINOMDIST(5;8;1/3;0)+BINOMDIST(6;8;1/3;0)+BINOMDIST(7;8;1/3;0)+BINOMDIST(8;8;1/3;0) [Calculate and sum each chance to get exactly 5-8 hits]
or
=1-BINOMDIST(4;8;1/3;1) [Calculate 100% minus the chance to get 0-4 hits]

BINOMDIST(X;Y;Z;M)
X = Number of Hits
Y = Dice rolled (1*4, 2*4, 3*4)
Z = Chance to get a hit with one die (1/3)
M = Not Cumulated/Cumulated (0/1)

As much as I hate to argue this, you are missing a small point of the Argument. _Pax_ is saying that the Rated 2 Comlink will never detect the initial hack if the Stealth program is Rated at 5. It cannot ever get 5 hits to detect initial intrusion.

What _Pax_ is missing, however, is that the Comlink can detect the agent once the hack has taken place, since it is a roll off between the Comlink and the Agent. Since it is a roll off, and neither can make use of Edge (assuming automated responses, and not an active hacker) then it is possible to detect the agent. *shrug*

And regardless, once the Agent is loaded onto that low-end comlink, it locks up, as it has now exceeded the Response Limit on the Agent Alone. And yet, no one deigns to address this particular point (it is like it is being ignored completely). It does not break the game to have this happen, nor does it invalidate the World and cause Shadowruns to fail outright. It is a fact of the Technology involved on the low end. Low End Comlinks are not going to be a viable target becasue of this flaw in the logic, and High end Comlinks are quite capable of detecting such an intrusion. So, where does that leave the Hacker who wants to pursue this line of work? Pretty much no where.

That is only true if you probe the target (which has an interval of hours), not with hacking on the fly.

Look at the example on p. 236

True, assuming it takes more than a pass to get the hits (and is something I did not consider in the plethora of math involved). And with a Target of 8, it will likely take a pass or three to accumulate the required number of hits, and Yes, that gives a roll (cumulative) to hit the Stealth Rating with OTF Hacks. Sorry if I misrepresented the case. On-the-fly hacks are definitely more susceptible.

And in a Race for Admin ( 8 ) vs. Stealth (5), I am not really sure who I would bet on. Penetration is likely to take 2-3 passes, and Detection is likely to take 2-4 passes. Thanks for clarification NiL_FisK_Urd.

Agents are limited by how many programs they can load, making most of them useless, or come in pairs.

Technos are limited by how many "programs" they can buy at chargen, due to the sheer cost of them, making them have to hyper-focus at single tasks and be useless elsewhere.

Not completely worthless, threading does alleviate it a little bit

A little bit.
Though I am recalling some errata that nipped threading a little, but I don't recall the details (something to alleviate the "I thread -> 1 hit -> drop thread, rethread -> 4 hits" thing). But I don't remember the exact change that was made.

It's a Free Action now

A technomancer could pull this off, but he needs a Rtg. 6 crack/sleuth sprite and a Rtg. 6 data sprite OR a Rtg. 9 sleuth sprite.

That's what they did, right.

I'm not missing that. But AFAIK, that roll onlyhappens when the agent tries to do something. If it sits there, quietly, doing nothing .... I don't believe that roll-off even happens. I may be worng, of course - a page reference to that effect would be helpful.


I was under the impression that programs loaded into an agent, only counted against the System limit if they were in use ... just like programs loaded into a hacker's Persona. So while the Agent is doing nothing, an thus, running nothing, it's only one program against the limit.

And absolute worst case, you decide to be less fancy, and just have the Hacking Agent immediately conduct the 5¥ transfer the moment it has access.

You can also make the Agent and the programs loaded onto it Ergonomic. (Or at least its payload.)

So, I have a Comlink rated 2. I am running Analyze, Browse and Encrypt (why should I bother to purchase Ergonomic functions for programs if I never run the risk of overloading my own comlink?). The second the Agent is loaded, My Comlink Crashes. Simple as that. And those are typical programs that will likely always be running. Who cares if your Agent Payload is Ergonomic. Even still, the Agent can only have 2 Ergonomic Programs (The Agent will run at the Rating of the Comlink), so the three programs loaded will STILL overload the comlink if one of my common programs is not running, assuming I do not have an Ergonomic Program Running already (IF I was going to do that, it would be a Reality Filter). The assumptions that Joe Wageslave is stupid are just so amusing.

There is no reason that the typical user would not be running those 3-4 programs. SO ANY attempt at a surreptitious loading of an Agent will still alert the user to shenanigans. It really is that simple. And any arguments to the contrary are just really ridiculous. Since the Agent cannot even tell what programs are loaded and running, as it does not have the programs in its loadout to even determine such information, it cannot even give a proper command to shut services down before doing anything. *shakes head*

Why Encrypt? Your typical wage-slave has no need of it, and it's not part of the Basic User Suite. So why would Joe Average Citizen bother running Encrypt on his commlink?

Also, while the programs are LOADED on your 'link, why are they all RUNNING at once? Joe Average and Sue Typical don't need to be running all of that at once. when they're not actively doing something, the 'link is probably just running Analyse, and maybe Browse.

I'd also imagine that the Common Use Program Suites from SR4A fall under Unwired's Software Suites rule, where it just counts for 1 program. So an off the shelf commlink with likewise OS and programs (i.e. what Joe Average is assumed to use) is running one program. Simple as that, agent with ergonomic programs doesn't kill it.

Encrypt is a basic program that is useful to stop hacks. Even Joe Wageslave understands that. And it is insignificant in cost.
As for Analyze running. Kinda useful, don't you think? And Browse. I CONSTANTLY have my browser up and running whenever my computer is running. So again, not a stretch. Same with basic analysis programs. 3 VERY basic Programs. You could even throw in Scan to detect those Publiuc Profiles that you like so much as a social person (becasue you cannot Browse what you have not scanned), if you want, and it is even FREE when you purchase your comlink (at Rating 1, anyways, which is all that the average person really needs).

Even by your own admission, Analyze and Browse are a minimum, and if they like their own custom interface and iconography, then Reality Filter fits that bill as well. That is Miminum of 3 (Analyze, Browse, and likely Scan), and as many as 5 programs (adding in Reality Filter and Encryption) that are immediately useful to any Joe Average or Sue Typical. The ONLY way your scheme works is to intentionally ignore common, useful programs for the average person. Many, if not all, of these will likely always be running.

So again, a Minimum of 3 non-Ergonomic Programs with 2 Ergonomic programs. Look at that, all slots filled (leaving only 1 Crash Slot, the one that will bring the comlink to its knees). Sad to say, that incompetent Agent will load onto that particular comlink with its 3 payload programs (regardless of whether they are active or not) and then you get Comlink Crash.

And even if you (as the hacker) start shutting down programs prior to the load (which is not going to happen, as you wanted an automated solution so as to leave less of a trail), when My Up and Running Scan, Browse, Analyze or Reality Filter shuts down, I will be automatically alerted (either the windows close in my AR, or my iconography changes) so that I can then take steps to investigate, initiate a Forced Logoff of all connections, or just reboot. If you choose to shut down the Encryption, then the ARC automatically reboots to restore theservice and dump anyone in the Link, sinn that should NEVER shut down on its own, and when it dfoes, that is an indicator that the system has been compromised.

So, exactly how does this scheme of yours really work out for you at that point. Because, again, if you are targeting low end comlinks, like you say, they will likely be non-viable for this particular scheme. Once you move to high end comlinks, well, then they are not nearly so easy to crack, and their users are probably people that you want to not screw with in the first place. I am just not seeing the viability of your scheme. *shrug*

Assuming they bought a suite. Not a likely choice for someone with a Rated 2 Comlink, as they can get the same programs for less at that rating.

The Power Suite is 1240 Nuyen (Analyze 3, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4, Purge 4, Scan 2)
The Net Wizard is 480 Nuyen (Analyze 3, Browse 3, Command 1, Edit 2, Purge 3).

Standard Scan 1 is Free.
Custom Package: Analyze 2, Browse 2, Encrypt 2, Reality Filter 2, Edit 2 is only 500 Nuyen. Put Ergonomic on a Single Program and you get it for an additional 300 Nuyen. (A direct Comparison with the Net Wizard for all Rating 2 Programs (Analyze, Browse, Edit, Purge), with Command 1, is 450 Nuyen, which is still cheaper than the Net Wizard unless I add an Ergonomic Option).

Purge is Nice, but it is a Rating 2 Comlink. Might get it or not. Again, only 100 Nuyen for a Rated 2 Purge if I want it (I replaced Purge with Encryption for my base Selection).
Command is also not too bad, but generally not necessary for the typical user, assume that if we have it, it is rated at a Rating 1 (Like the Net Wizard Suite), for an additional 50 Nuyen (I replaced Command 1 with Reality Filter 2 in my base Selection).

The published Suites are mostly useless to the Rated 2 Comlink, as they lose a lot of their functionality, as you paid money for ratings you cannot even use (if you want to use them you have to add the Optimizarion Program Options, and that just costs more money). The only benefits are that they can all run in a single program space (as they are inherently Ergonomic; and they could scale if your average person chose to go to a Rated 3 Comlink). Not bad, if you have the money to waste. If the average person wants Encryption, they must still purchase the Rated 2 Program for 100 Nuyen, and the Customized Iconography is also an additional 100 Nuyen. So the Net Wizard Suite is still 30 Nuyen More Expensive than the Package I put together (680 for the Suite vs. 650 for the Package I put together; Of course an Ergonomic Option on the custom package will add 300 Nuyen to the Custom package). The Only selling point of the Net Wizard: Single Program Space. The reason I did not include Scalability as a Selling Point is that the AVERAGE person will not upgrade to such Hardware (we are assuming Average People use Rating 2 Hardware after all). If we want to include Scalability, you must also include the costs of the Optimization Options on the Suite Programs, assuming you want to use the Rated 2 Hardware (so an additional 300 Nuyen on the Net Wizard). *shrug*

Joe Wageslave may or may not purchase a suite. It is a close comparison, money wise.
Professional Users will indeed purchase such a package, as it behooves them to do so, and it is likely that they will actually purchase a more powerful, customized version of the Power Suite if they are Heavily into the profession. *shrug*

And as for your comparison, so they have a Net Wizard/Power Suite running. Then you add Encryption and Reality Filter, and there you go, 3 running Programs, your loaded Agent once again crashes the system. *shrug*

That is only true if someone who knows computer stuff configured the comlink - but Sue Typical and Joe Average are not likely to have ranks in the "Matrix Security" knowledge skill. Most of them will ask if you mean a part of a cathedral when you say "ARC".

Also, if your browser crashes, do you (i mean you as a real person, not a shadowrun PC) initiate a Forced Logoff of all connections/reboot or do you just restart firefox/ie/whatever?

Next, Scan is only used to find Hidden nodes - all other nodes are automatically detected (note that the rulebook lists System as required program, not Scan).


Analyze, Browse, Command and Edit are normally purchased as a "Common Use Program Suite" (SR4A, p. 232), which, according to UW, p. 128, only counts as one program when calculating for processor load.
Security conscious users will also run encrypt and maybe purge (because viruses and trojans are more likely to encounter than hackers), but these users will most likely use DR3+ comlinks.

Also, the MSP (which is included in lifestyle) provides a remote-operated agent with browse and edit, which even makes the "Common Use Program Suite" dispensable for many users. (UW, p. 201/202)

And the thing that bothers me most: You do not need to load the agent into the hacked commlink, you can access it from the (expendable) commlink. Even better, you could use a flying microdrone as a relay for your hacking attempts.

If you really have to load the agent into the mook comlink, let it use "Server-Side Programs" (UW, p.109) that you installed on a hacked nexus, therefore only using 1 processor slot on the mooks 'link (the agent itself).

You are mistaking the "Program Packages" from UW, p. 127 (which is not a suite and therefore does not get the benefit of the reduced processing power) with the software suites on SR4A, p. 232, that can only be purchased with a comlink.

Basic: Analyze 2, Browse 2, Command 1, Edit 2, 300¥
Basic+: Analyze 3, Browse 3, Command 1, Edit 3, 400¥
Pro: Analyze 4, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4, 600¥