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> Applied social skills, At table solutions for the abstract nature of social skills
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 19 2012, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (The Dread Polack @ Dec 19 2012, 09:36 AM) *
I agree. I am AFB right now. What is a PAB?


A PAB is a Programmable Assist Biofeedback machine. You use them in Shadowrun to "program" people, fix their mental problems, Insert alternate personalities, etc.
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The Dread Polack
post Dec 19 2012, 06:03 PM
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I try not to debate reality too much on RPG forums, but I'll do it a little bit here.

First, I'll agree that you obviously can't erase or change facts with charm alone. In a trial, you might be able to get people to tamper with evidence, and maybe you can socially engineer that too, but there's a point where it's getting so rediculous that it may as well be impossible. I wouldn't want to let a player think that he never has to worry because he can always roll enough successes on a persuasion test to get out of any situation.

The thing about a trial, however, is that you are judged by a jury, not the facts. The truth can be obvious, but they only have to believe you're guilty to find you guility, or have doubt to find you not-guilty. Innocents go to prison every day in America. Years later, we find out that an obvious travesty of justice put them there, and how could they have found him guilty? In truth, it wasn't a single suave fast-talker, it was probably generations of racism or a public panic combined with a "tough on crime" policy. AND, a prosecution that knew how to manipulate it.

Some pretty exciting books, movies, and TV shows are all about a single suave fast-talker doing all these things, and that's why I'd tend to run with it in my game.

I think we know enough these days to know that you're not going to turn a stright person gay, or vice versa. That's why California is outlawing facilities that are trying to do just that. But, I only said you could get a straight man to have sex with another man. In fact, there are real-world examples of this happening all the time, although usually the victims are minors. I only meant to imply that doing so would be an extreme act, and I should have used the word "coersion".

First of all, if a player proposed such a thing, my actual reaction would be "No, I'm just not going there," but in theory, it could be done by a clever enough character willing to do some very nasty things.
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Lionhearted
post Dec 19 2012, 06:08 PM
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I think a lot of what's missing here is the absolute massive influence of having an altered mental state. People seem to do stupid things when they aren't sober, worth noting is that altered states are not just caused by substances but surrounding.

QUOTE (Blade @ Dec 19 2012, 05:41 PM) *
Some people have been able to get victims to remember things that never happened to them, and big things like domestic abuse and rape... It's impressive what you can do "socially".

Memory is a funny thing, it's easily influenced because of the way it works.

QUOTE
peer pressure

Peer pressure is a very strong factor in some cases and rather irrelevant in others. It's certainly more powerful if the person is already in an altered state.

QUOTE
Get a lesbian to sleep with him in a society which considers heterosexuallity the norm. More plausible.

I don't know why'd you think that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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The Dread Polack
post Dec 19 2012, 06:12 PM
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All of these things are true, and there are some very interesting and scary experiments that show this.
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Irion
post Dec 19 2012, 06:55 PM
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@Lionhearted
QUOTE
I don't know why'd you think that smile.gif

Come on. A lot of people make money claiming they can turn gay people straight. I think pretty much bogus in the long run but you know they probably get them to sleep with a woman/man once.

I made the opposite example with beeing in the ancient greek society. Want the girl on girl thing place her in an extremist feminist circle.

It gives the "face" an angle to work with. All are doing it! You do not want to change (or move outside of bounderies) if you consider yourself the norm and you even think it could have a bad influance on your futur life.
It is about self image. If you get people to think they "have" to do it, they do it. Build up felt peer pressure and you get people to do crazy things.
And peer pressure works also if you did not drink at all.
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Lionhearted
post Dec 19 2012, 07:11 PM
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What Im saying that you made it sound like gay women were somehow less gay then gay men, which obviously isn't the case. You would have as much luck getting a gay women to bed a man as you would have a gay man bed a woman.
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Irion
post Dec 19 2012, 07:18 PM
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@Lionhearted
I was not implying that in any way. The point is just, that a charisma 7 male face should have no problem at all getting an openly gay man to sleep with him (no other things attached). I just did not get into the female face thing, because I was actually absolutly not thinking along the line you were thinking I was thinking. So I thought that I did not need to make this point, for it is obvious.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 19 2012, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Dec 19 2012, 12:18 PM) *
@Lionhearted
I was not implying that in any way. The point is just, that a charisma 7 male face should have no problem at all getting an openly gay man to sleep with him (no other things attached). I just did not get into the female face thing, because I was actually absolutly not thinking along the line you were thinking I was thinking. So I thought that I did not need to make this point, for it is obvious.


I still disagree with you Irion. It is not that easy.
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Irion
post Dec 19 2012, 07:39 PM
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@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
With what exactly. I am guessing you just read my statement different from how I understand it. (With no other things attached I was implying that there are no further "issues" like is married)
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Lionhearted
post Dec 19 2012, 07:47 PM
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That's not the example you gave Irion. Im not sure what you're getting at although...
Anyhow I was just poking fun at the proposition that gay people would somehow be more receptive to straight sex then straight people to gay sex, it doesn't quite work that way and that example made me think of all the stories of men trying to turn gay women. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ehm, suffice to say... homosexuality is accepted and respected by most people here. struck me that it's not like that everywhere and my humour may have been lost (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Irion
post Dec 19 2012, 08:06 PM
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@Lionhearted
QUOTE
Anyhow I was just poking fun at the proposition that gay people would somehow be more receptive to straight sex then straight people to gay sex, it doesn't quite work that way

Not quite. I was saying it depends on the cirle you are living in, both ways.

I having gay sex appart from beeing against your "desires" can get you a death sentance... Well...
If you have to be at least bisexual to advance in an hierarchy of an organisation with which you agree mostly...

It is not about turning, I thought we agreed on that. And lets be honest, with tailored pheromones in the mix you are going down a dark ally....

QUOTE
That's not the example you gave Irion.

I am a bit confused about that.
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Lionhearted
post Dec 19 2012, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Dec 19 2012, 09:06 PM) *
It is not about turning, I thought we agreed on that.

I was not trying to make an argument what so ever, just having some fun with a line that stuck out to me
edit: Oh, I see where you're coming from you're refering to 'norm' as 'the only acceptable outcome' Im refering to norm as 'the most common outcome'.
What I was saying is that in an open and accepting society that's a very funny notion.

QUOTE
I am a bit confused about that.

You said:
Male face and straight man = not likely
Male face and gay woman = more likely.

Then you go on to say in the next post. "Male face and gay man". Just pointing out that that wasn't what you were saying in the first place.

Anyhow, we should try and calm down on this subject. Tis not the purpose of the thread
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Irion
post Dec 19 2012, 08:40 PM
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@Lionhearted
Alright. I was talking about the influence of the environment it is happening in. You kind of missed that part or I did not make it clear enough. Probably the later.
So to make it clear:
Women trying to sleep with a gay men in a gay bar after a gay pride parade. Very hard, unless drugs are involved.
Women trying to sleep with a born again christian who happens to be gay. I can see an angle there.
Women trying to sleep with a gay man who will only inherit huge amounts of money if he proves to his father he is sexually active with a women.

Can write the same thing down with man...

@Norm
Not only but still being of advantage.
QUOTE
What I was saying is that in an open and accepting society that's a very funny notion.

Call me, if you find such a society...Everybody has some stick up their ass.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 19 2012, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Dec 19 2012, 12:39 PM) *
@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
With what exactly. I am guessing you just read my statement different from how I understand it. (With no other things attached I was implying that there are no further "issues" like is married)


The highlighted part of the post I was replying to...
I actually know people (not people I would call friends, but there you go) who would cause you physical harm if you tried to convinve them to partake in a Gay encounter. There is absolutley nothing you can say to convince them that it would be a good thing. *shrug*
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Irion
post Dec 19 2012, 09:03 PM
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@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, I was not contradicting that.
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Glyph
post Dec 20 2012, 03:44 AM
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I think PC vs. PC is a real minefield, both because the rules are so vague and subjective, and because what one player may see as convincing the other PC of something, the other player might see as having his character's personality essentially re-written with a dice roll. The "turn a character gay" thing, which seems to come up a lot, is one example of this.

Yeah, there are lots of experiments that demonstrate how fallible memory is and how people can actually be manipulated more easily than they would imagine. But if calling for a certain result from a dice roll breaks someone's immersion in the game, it still doesn't matter. You are sacrificing verisimilitude for a dubious "realism" that doesn't add anything good to the game.

I tend to agree with the other posters who feel that social skills need to be applied tactically, and that they can't always be used in every situation. In real life, con men (even the really, really good ones) get the hell out of dodge after fleecing a mark; in Shadowrun, they can just make another roll to fool the target all over again. There are people in real life with the equivalent of 1's in all of their mental stats, who could never, ever be convinced that a certain viewpoint of theirs is wrong, even when confronted with all of the logical flaws and inconsistencies of that viewpoint. Even in movies and fiction, a good source for what a supernatural face might be like, the smooth-talking hero's social skills are not a magic bullet that can get him out of every situation - a lot of times they will be faced with a gullible moron who still won't budge a milimeter for them.
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sk8bcn
post Dec 20 2012, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Dec 19 2012, 09:40 PM) *
@Lionhearted
Alright. I was talking about the influence of the environment it is happening in. You kind of missed that part or I did not make it clear enough. Probably the later.
So to make it clear:
Women trying to sleep with a gay men in a gay bar after a gay pride parade. Very hard, unless drugs are involved.
Women trying to sleep with a born again christian who happens to be gay. I can see an angle there.
Women trying to sleep with a gay man who will only inherit huge amounts of money if he proves to his father he is sexually active with a women.

Can write the same thing down with man...

@Norm
Not only but still being of advantage.

Call me, if you find such a society...Everybody has some stick up their ass.



mmmm

I think your definition of "environment" is misleading.

Exemple 1: is a case of trial of charming. Here, you have an environment like I understand the environment word. And it's nigh impossible to succeed whatever the woman's charisma.

Exemple 2 isn't for me a situationnal environment. The guy grew up in a certain "milieu" (in french) which affects his whole personnality. It affects you if you've been taught your whole childhood the "evilness" of homosexuality. So yes, I agree that it would be possible.

Exemple 3 doesn't fit that much neither to me. It's not a case of charming. It's a case of bribery.


IMO, the original statement that
"No matter how many dices you have, some things will automatically fail".

Some straigth people cannot be convinced (with mental altering substances) to have gay sex, no matter the ability at charming of the other one.


I, for exemple, couldn't be convinced to try drug. I might party with people taking it, I won't do it myself. It goes too deeply against my valors.
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Lionhearted
post Dec 20 2012, 04:44 PM
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@Glyph I make a habit of never bringing real word logic into a game argument. At the same time, being able to do something according to the rules does not mean that a GM should allow it, there should always be impossible scenarios and failure state... Currently I haven't really decided on how to prevent a pornomancer from playing every lowly grunts by his strings and at the same time not being an bullheaded naysayer.
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Blade
post Jan 11 2013, 02:08 PM
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Here are two proposals for better social rules.

The first is a twist on the combat rules, to add "social combat". It's familiar, and can be interesting for campaign with a big emphasis on reputation and social status, but it doesn't really fix the issues people can have with social rules.
The second add a whole new layer on top of the existing social rules. It sound good in my head, but I haven't tested it so it might have holes/errors I haven't noticed.

PROPOSAL 1 - Social Combat

It started as a joke, but some people liked it, so here it is.

Social Monitor

- Each character has an additional "wit" monitor. This monitor has 8+Charisma/2 boxes. If you want to play a game where social combat can put someone out of the game, you can add a "reputation" monitor as well with 8+Charisma/2 boxes.
- Wound modifiers of these monitors are applied to social tests.
- When the wit monitor is filled, the character is sensitive to all persuasion attempts (within reason) and unable to persuade anyone. When the reputation monitor is filled, the character is hung out to dry and might consider suicide.
- For every hour when a character is not using his social skills, he can do a charisma+intuition roll to heal damages to his wit monitor. For each day when the character is laying low, he can roll charisma+willpower to heal damages to his reputation monitor.
- Some actions (such as friendly support) can quickly heal damages, the way first aid do.

Use of social combat
Social combat is mostly used to persuade someone, though it can be used in some circumstances to social destroy that person. Characters engaged in social combat can stop the combat when they want by accepting to be persuaded or by stopping to try to persuade. Most NPC will stop combat when their social "wound modifiers" are equal or higher than their professional rating.

Social combat is one on one only (allies can give modifiers) and each person acts after the other, no matter how many initiative passes they have.

Attack
Attacks are done with one of the attack skill (con, intimidation, negociation, leadership) with Charisma. Modifiers can be applied depending on the situation.
The attacker chooses if he wants to damage wit or reputation. Attacking reputation leads to a -6 modifier for the attacker.
Base damage is Charisma/2 but social weapons (evidence of a scandalous behavior for example) can be used.

Defense
The defender opposes the attacker's roll with intuition + a social skill (according to his style of defense). This shows his ability to understand the goal of the attacker and replying correctly. If he's got more net hits than the attacker, the defender is unaffected by the attack. Situational modifiers can be applied if the character has elements that could help him see the attack coming.

Full Defense
A character can go to full defense whenever he wants. He can then add his charisma to his defense rolls. A character can't counter attack as long as he's in full defense.

Soak
If the attacker has at least one net hit, the defender must soak damage with willpower+charisma (+ social armor if available).

Social Weapons
The use of a social weapon requires the use of some information or stuff. Here are some examples, but they can be extended to many other situations.

For example:
Basic blackmail (Intimidation) : Charisma. "Be careful! I've got files on you!"
Light blackmail (Intimidation) : Charisma/2+2. "I know you're flirting with the boss' daughter"
Regular blackmail (Intimidation) : Charisma/2+4. "I've got pictures of you with the boss' daughter".
Heavy blackmail (Intimidation) : Charisma/2+6. "I've got pictures of you with the boss' two years old daughter".

Basic Confusion (Con) : Charisma/2. "And that's when Bob, no not Silvia's brother, the other, Bob's cousin. The other Bob. So, he arrives there and tells Silvia, no not the same Silvia! [...]"
Light confusion (Con) : Charisma/2+2. The attacker has some elements to confuse the defender.
Regular Confusion (Con) : Charisma/2+4. The attacker has credible evidence that can make the defender question his own opinions.
Total Confusion (Con) : Charisma/2+6. The attacker has enough new elements to completely break the defender's system of thought.

No Authority (Leadership) : Charisma/2. "You shut up and let me in!"
A little authority (Leadership) : Charisma/2+2 "Health control, here's my plaque."
Regular Authority (Leadership) : Charisma/2+4 "Health control, here's our access codes, you've been warned by e-mail two weeks ago."
Overwhelming Authority (Leadership) : Charisma/2+6 [Over the noise of the sanitary service helicopter where 3 squads in NBC suits are coming from] "Health control, here is a note from the President. We'll take over from here".

Word (Negociation) : Charisma/2 "You let me in and I owe you one."
Small bribe (Negociation) : Charisma/2+2. "I can't seem to find my access card, I just have this hundred dollar bill. I don't like dollars, I prefer credsticks, do you know what I could do with this?"
Regular bribe (Negociation) : Charisma/2+4 "You're right, this isn't my access card, this is the keycard for my Westwind right there."
Huge bribe (Negociation) : Charisma/2+6 "You'll find this every monday morning in your mailbox. Try not to spend it all at once."

Social Armor

Little authority: +1 "Dad said you can't come in"
De facto authority: +2 Dad: "You can't come in"
Regular authority: +4 "Sorry, I've been ordered to let nobody in"
High authority: +6 "If I let you in, I lose my job"
Overwhelming authority: +8 "If I let you in, my head explodes"

Support: +2 when the character's opinion is supported by the majority in the situation

Advanced rules
- A "martial art" system could be imagined, with special moves like playing with the target's emotions to get bonuses (similar to "Setup") or countering the attacker's arguments (similar to counter-attack), etc.

- This system can be used for insult swordfights.

-----

PROPOSAL 2 - Pressure System

If a roll is needed, it's because the target has reasons not to do what you want him to do. There are three kinds of pressure that can lead to him refusing: personal (moral code, personal gain), reputational (peer pressure) and societal (orders, laws, etc.). These pressures can be cumulative, or can compete.


Pressures
Each pressure is associated with a force:
1 = No big deal
2 = Kind of a deal
4 = That's all it's about

This force is multiplied by the pressure's multiplier:
Individual: character's Willpower
Reputational: character's loyalty to the group (1 to 6)
Societal: society's impact on the character (1 to 4)

When in a social situation, the GM calculates the pressures the target has, in respect to the situation at hand.

For example, a guard tasked with guarding a place will have at least a societal pressure of 4 (that's the whole point of his job)*3 (his corporation has a huge impact on his life) = 12. But that's not all: if he fails at his task, he'll lose his reputation among his co-workers. But it's not such a big deal, so it's only worth 1*4 = 4
Depending on his personal motivation, there can also be an individual pressure. If the character's life revolves around protecting that place from dangerous terrorists, this will add another 4*Willpower pressure. If he doesn't care and just wait for the end of the day, there won't be any pressure.


In order to persuade the target to go against these pressures, the Shadowrunners have three ways: go around them, add a temporary pressure or change a pressure's multiplier. When the total pressure value is 0 or less, the persuasion attempt succeeds.

Working around a pressure
The first solution implies finding a way to avoid the pressure from applying in the situation. This is done using the basic Shadowrun rules, but the character needs to have a convincing way to remove the pressure and he needs to have at least Force net hits (without the multiplier). If the attacker wins but doesn't have enough net hits, he can try again with a -2 modifier. If the defender wins, the attacker can no longer try to convince him on that topic. The defender also gets his net hits as bonus dice for all social test against the attacker during the rest of the social encounter.

In the example, the Shadowrunner can try to convince the guard that he's his boss, so that the societal pressure will be removed. But if the guard has a personal pressure to protect the place, it will stay there: even if his boss tells him to leave the place, he doesn't feel comfortable in leaving it open for Shadowrunners to infiltrate.

In some cases, intermediate steps might be needed. If the Shadowrunner doesn't look like the guard's boss, he'll have to find a way to explain why someone else than his boss would give him orders. For example, he can try to convince the guard that he's replacing his boss because he's sick. This will require another test. With each additional test, the target receives a +2 bonus to his opposition roll.

Temporary pressures
The second solution means adding other pressures that will compete with the existing pressures. For example, if the Shadowrunner threatens the guard to kill his wife if he doesn't leave his position, or tries to bribe the guard, the guard will have an individual pressure that will compete against the societal pressure enforced by his work.

The force of the pressure depends on the pressure itself (if the defender is well paid, the bribe will be a force 1 pressure, if he's in dire need of cash, it will be a force 4 pressure). The multiplier will be the number of net hits the attacker has. The action takes the time of the discussion.

For example, what happens if the Pornomancer uses his usual tactics: seducing the guard to get in? Seducing the guard to get in means adding a reputational pressure: the character is pressured to do something in order to please a group (or in that case a character) he wants to please. Since he just met the Pornomancer, it's not that much of a deal if he doesn't please him, so the force will be 1. This means that the Pornomancer will need 12 hits for the guard to let him in, assuming the guard has only his job's pressure.

Please note that the defender can also resolve some pressure on his own. For example if the attacker adds pressure by threatening to kill him, the guard can remove (or at least reduce) this pressure by calling for backup. Also, some pressure the attacker can apply can trigger other pressures the defender has. For example, bribing the defender can trigger the societal pressure of an anti-bribery policy, as well as reputational pressure and personal pressure about taking bribe (which can be for or against bribe-taking). For each net hit in a Negociation (Sense Motive), the player can ask about one of the target's reaction to one pressure.

Changing pressures
Finally, the attacker can try to change the multiplier of an existing pressure or add a new permanent pressure. To do so, the character does an extended social test (targeted multiplier*defender's willpower, 1 week) using the skill that matches his style. The defender can oppose the rolls if he's opposed to the change.

In the guard example, the Shadowrunner can for example try to lower the company's pressure multiplier by convincing the guard to look for another employer, or he can convince the guard that his company is doing bad things, adding a new personal pressure, or he can become friends with the guard, adding a new reputational pressure.
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Lionhearted
post Jan 11 2013, 05:28 PM
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Any system that allows for insult jousting is downright amazing!
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Glyph
post Jan 12 2013, 04:48 AM
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It's an improvement over the vagueness of the existing rules, but it is about the opposite of how I feel about social skills, philosophically. I play a game to roleplay out my characters reactions and interactions with the other characters and NPCs. Rolling dice is an intrusion into this, that takes me out of my immersion in the character. My personal preference for social skills is to minimize the dice-rolling, using it for simple, quantifiable tests (such as bluffing past a bouncer or getting a ganger to back down), or to give everyone a general idea of how convincing the character was at something.

Not everyone plays that way, though. Some people see their characters more as "game tokens", or see the results of social skill tests as an exercise in method acting, so more quantifiable and coherent rules would help them.
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