I don't see what cosmetic/fully functional has to do with anything regarding this. If its being payed for with equal essence and nuyen cost, then its 100% balanced. The ONLY problem is, as others have mentioned, when it is used with genetic heritage. Which means that Genetic Heritage is the issue, not the transgenic biotech. If you want Genetic Heritage to work with it, limiting to rating 1 (anything) will balance out most issues, and synaptic booster 1 isn't that game breaking for an overpriced piece of tech anyway.

To be honest, I'd see alot of this as a purposeful dodge of the rules. If a player is purposefully trying to dodge the rules, they get hit with the core book up side the head. lol

For CHARACTER DEPTH I'll bend alot. Someone wanting wired reflexes 3 and trying to get it with out paying for it, and makes up some excuse to try and justify it? No. The option described here was pretty clearly meant for minor appearance or features that wern't covered elsewhere. Not for mini-maxing. And while you can use it for such, in my games I'd rule it (purposefully trying to mini max using this aspect) as trying to circumvent the rules and thus not allowed.

I know not all do such, but in our games bending the rules to try and get the most stats, for the stats sake is frowned upon, (And mocked). Again if you've got a concept for... a badger guy and you want badger fur and badger teeth and stuff, and you can explain it to me in a way that 1) Doesn't sound moronic, and 2) Could roll with the game. It's one thing. If you want free strength and stam and bite attack and point out you can get a free bit of this by using an obscure rule, and just throw the badger thing on there for that rule use. No.

Except that the rule is not obscure.

You can allow the SA 3 as a genecrafted choice, and enforce that the costs are equal to SA 3 (Essence and Nuyen). However, the concept of a Genegeneered Character is pretty awesome, and the fact that it costs you something to get it is okay. In most cases, I would not allow the 10BP quality to provide SA3 (48 BP worth of resources). But SA 1 is certainly doable, in my opinion (you only save 6 BP in this case) and it opens up a lot of potential roleplaying ideas based upon the character's background (why he has it). *shrug*

As some have stated: The problem is not the Geneware itself, it is the Application of the Quality that is a potential problem.

eeehhhhh.. Yeah but that's not why you'd go for it. You're trying to get it on the cheep. From the start of the thread this wasn't "I have an awesome role playing idea and this would fit" It was "Hey if you use this rule in this way you can dodge the cost and get ___ For free" Type thing.

One would be awesome role play, the other is trying to get the stuff and not pay for it, or do so on the cheep. As soon as it became "I want wired reflexes 3 with my transgenetic alt, instead o "A furry lions mane" or the like, it edged into mini-max catagory.

I know some people dedicate their entire gaming experience to doing such, and they have fun that way.

-My- Groups hate that sort of thing, and find it silly.

Different people like different things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No doubt... I hedge away from allowing it too, but I can see places where it may make a good story.
Really depends upon the game in question, and the players involved. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

TOTAL agreement there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/alien.gif)

I agree with several of the other posters that it is the intersection of the Genetic Heritage quality, and the text stating that most bioware is available as transgenic modifications, which is at fault. I would limit the quality to specifically transgenic mods such as genetic optimization or Reakt, possibly allowing things like gecko hands or quills, but drawing the line at things like synaptic boosters (at least over level: 1), and certainly not allowing anything over the normal availability, unless Restricted Gear is taken too.

One other thing to keep in mind is that unlike bioware, geneware is not available in higher grades.

Sorry, but you are using "min/max" entirely incorrectly. It is simply maximizing a strong area while avoiding ANY AND ALL weaknesses. Most characters that forum posters (here or the official ones) claim as "min/max" are not because they tend to be so full of weak points than a real "min/max" player would NEVER consider simply because they are weak points.

I wasn't aware that there was an "Approved" and "Understood by all" Definition for such a thing. Much less that it's what you think, as opposed to what others think. Perhaps you're the one using it wrong?

Mini/maxing can also be the act of purposefully maxing your your stats, while minimizing your negative qualities. It doesn't mean you avoid ANY AND ALL. *shrugs*

You're trying to act as if there's a concrete definition and people are using it wrong. It's at best, common parlance in a subculture. I.E. There's no "Hard definition".

It's like trying to define "Twink" or "power gamer" Wanna start a fight? Bring that up on a gaming forum. You wouldn't believe how many people ____I_____ Could categorize as GIGANTIC TWINKS, define themselves as "power gamers". And while there is gray area in the middle..... the number of Twinks that seem to think they're not, is astounding.

In short, you can't tell others they're using Min/Maxing wrong, as there's no hard fast concrete and universally agreed on definition.

Honestly, I hate the term "twink", but mostly because it's mainly used by hardcore "RP Elitists" that think that wanting a decent character mechanically automatically means you can't RP out of a paper bag, which is not true.

Disclaimer- Not saying that you're one of those, but I've mainly seen it out of those types.

I'm sure noone likes being called one. lol.

The point being that these are very subjective derogatory terms that are not set in stone. What I think is twinkish, Player B might just see as Power gaming and Player C might just see as "Normal every day character"

What I consider Mini/Maxing might not fit your (more strict) Definition. But your more strict definition would also fall into my not 100% sort of definition. Just taken to an extreme.

So neither one of us can really say the other is "WRONG", we can just go "Well what __I__(( Or the people I play with)) Concider Mini/Maxing is ____" Same thing with Twink and Munchkin, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They vary a bit from region to region and group to group. Heck even with in the same group.

I hate the term no matter who it's directed at because 9 times out of 10 the person directing it at someone is just in the "RP Elitist" category because they just suck that much at building characters and it makes them feel bigger denigrating others who are more capable.

I don't really like Genetic Heritage as it stands, even though I'm not unwilling to use it within availability and justifiable limits of animals available.

If it had worked such that it granted 45,000¥ towards transgenic enhancements, as well as a 10% discount on the same (total: 50,000¥ worth - or 10bp nuyen equivalent, not including excess purchases) ... I'd consider that a more reasonable quality.

Agreed, Then you could go ahead and get that SB 3 with genetic heritage...with a DISCOUNT not for free...assuming you also purchased the restricted gear quality.

That's not been my experience over the last 20 years. Though it -has- been my experience that twinks get VERY UPSET when you point it out. Very defensive. And... they tend to attack those calling them such.

Such as statements of "9 times out of 10, people accusing others of being twinks just suck that much at building characters" lol

Really? You think only 1 in 10 people accused of being twinkish, are? and 9 out of 10 times it's the accuser? If you hang around and play with people that falsely accuse others 9 out of 10 times, those people sound like jerks. Glad I don't play with those people if they are accusing 9 innocent people of twinkdom for every one they get right.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My point remains though. The 'definition' of Min/Maxing can vary, and you can't really tell people their version is 'wrong' or they're using it 'wrong'.

Basic bioware, and Cosmetic bioware, I wouldn't even blink an eye at; a lot of that stuff is essentially transgenic adaptations of various animal traits, after all.

However, Cultured Bioware and Biosculpting, I would generally say "no" to; likely exceptions would include the Sleep Regulator and Thermosense Organs. Others, I would need some convincing / justifying by the player - mainly, give me a couple example animals with the desired trait, to a degree that it might work as a transgenic mod.

Symbionts, obviously, wold be right out.

And the rest of Bioware, generally is genetic tinkering to begin with.

Never heard the term twink used with tabletop before...
The definition Im used to doesn't quite fit though.
A twink is, a character who reaches a high power level in an early stage either because he's getting fed powerful items and enhancements normally very hard to aquire at that level, or who intentionally halts his progress to be powerful in a low power setting.

Min/maxing is when you design a character to shine in a certain field at the expense of other fields. Quite a few min/maxed characters turn out as one trick ponies.
Munchkining is the same except without rhyme or reason to back it up, often crippling yourself outside of your area of expertise. It's also a healthy fear of ducks.

I'll go you one better:

The quality has four levels, costing 5BP per level. Each level gives you 20,000¥ worth of genetic modifications at no cost in Nuyen - Essence costs still apply, of course. Each level also gives you a 5% discount on the essence fost of genetic modifications (including, for whatever you get for free).

Yes, that's slightly more BP than you'd spend for that much money, but you ARE getting that (small) discount, too. So IMO, it's reasonably close to balanced, just at the first pass. (Plus it's flexible enough to be used tor multiple Genetech mods).

Oh, and: you can't take the quality more than once. Once you hit 4 levels of it, you're done, thank you for playing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

odd thought here- what about a modification to make the subject a 'good match' for a specific type of bug spirit? possibly from the introduction of insect DNA. this would go well with a spidersilk gland for example (for any species that spins a cocoon).

as for letting a 10BP merit give a starting character 4 ip, remember that its going to cost 1.8 essence as geneware, which means no break on cost there. if anything, it makes the characters brain a vital piece of research material for any corp that learns of it... and the lab that put it in some years ago may want their test subject alpha back....

really, if a player is willing to be on the run from an Ares lab that was injecting metahumans with bug DNA, then he can have his upgrade for as long as he can stay alive and free.

1.5 Essence... Synaptic Accelerators are 0.5 Essence per Rating.
As for test subject alpha... this is his/her child, and not him/her. Genetic Heritage means it was passed on through the genetic line. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That could work, but I was more just pointing out that the fits do come from using the quality to get it without the money cost.

Oh, I agree with you there. I was just pointing out a better (IMO) solution to outright saying "ixnay" to the quality at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah. Only reason I'd even considering saying "ixnay" on it is because there's another 'genetic' quality (I just forget the name of the other one off-hand right now...cranial flatulence).

you forgot the .3 essence for the genetic modification to get that.
also? your taking the fluff too literally. genetic heritage covers a number of possibilities which include inheritance.... but test subject alpha could just be a test tube baby.

That .3 essence is a minimum, not an extra.