it's not in the rules for materialized spirits. it's in the rules for the entire astral plane, which is what a spirit sees even while manifested, because they're still dual-natured and are therefore using astral perception. and why would it be stupid? the astral plane is different. it has many completely different laws from the physical plane in other respects, and indeed the rules for visibility and 'light' are completely different. you don't use the standard spectrum of light in the astral, why would it matter if a given material allows the standard spectrum of light to pass through or not? the question is "does this object allow astral 'light' to pass through unimpeded", and the answer is "no, it doesn't". and there's nothing unreasonable about that, any more than the fact that you can float right through that same window on the astral plane is unreasonable. different plane, different natural laws.

I think you're twisting the wording to support your position. If spirits had such limited, constantly impeded perception while manifested on the physical plane, they'd be essentially useless and no one would bother summoning them. It only makes sense for them to be able to see as well as anyone else in the physical world, even if they can also see the astral plane as well.

I discussed your previous post with our GM last night and we had a good laugh about it. So while we don't agree with your interpretation of the rules in this situation, we have added a house rule.

"Dual-Natured critters, expressly including materialized spirits, can see normally in the physical world, in addition to their perception of the astral plane."

And there goes that little bit of nonsense.

Why? It makes perfect sense. Astral space isn't meat space. It makes sense you can't see through shadows and that everything in meat space leaves a shadow in astral. And just because a spirit can't see through glass doesn't mean a spirit is suddenly useless. So they can't snipe a guy through a window, drive a car, or read a book. That doesn't mean that's the only reason you summon a spirit.

Anyway, there is a way you can get around this. make a series of levers with what direction you want the spirit to go in. Have some awaken moss ink or something that does exist on the astral. And have a rigger control how the levers move to give orders to the spirit.

But honestly, I think it'd be easier if you bot a rigger with a gyrocopter or something else like that. This way you can have guns, air support, and transportation with all the sensors you need. But if you really want remote control spirits...its an interesting idea, but it doesn't seem super practical to me.

If you need a houserule for your idea to work ...
While I find the initial proposal intriguing and creative, I found the amount of time for you to get condescending to others after them pointing out what's flawed, baffling.

Sure. Propose a problem. People do not think it will work the way you think it works. Obvious conclusion: They're smallminded and deserve to be derided.

Make the arrow thing just pop out of a stick, and it works again, btw. Still not a really useful thing to have.

Spirits can read in Canon, though. After all, Buttercup enjoys Comic Books.

Really? A comic printed with awaken ink maybe?

Really, and not awakened ink. Classic Comics. IIRC, Dunklezahn left her his entire collection.

I see spirits interacting in the Physical much like regular People who have Astral Sight. They can turn it on and off. After all, there are spirit types who have Enhanced Vision capabilities. Can't have that if all you have is astral sight, and in fact, I am pretty sure that they all have the 5 basic senses, otherwise they could not function at all. *shrug*

There is a lot of contention on that, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's sheer exasperation at the depths of some of the endless nit-picking. Some people here have had some good ideas and comments; I'm re-evaluating my original pure-tech build based on comments from DMiller, for instance. But some seemingly just want to come up with questionable rules interpretations just to nay-say a new idea, for whatever reason.

Yes, this. That's pretty much my contention.

Well, Runners Companion states that PC Free Spirits cannot read computer displays. (which is really stupid)

Something I've also thought was totally ridiculous for years now. Can a spirit see the light from me waving around a flashlight? If yes, why can they not read a computer screen?

Ok, I've looked this up in SR4A Core Rules, Running Wild, and Runner's Companion. And...it looks like you are quite correct! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I guess we missed that little bit. Ah well, I suppose the ghouls in our Sixth World have a better deal than their canon cousins, and are thus more dangerous.

Personally I rule (and I have no rules backup for that) that a spirit has astral sight only unless it materializes. Then it gains normal vision (or dual vision) and thus can read or look through windows.

But if you want to stay with the rules, Buttercup liking comics could be the same thing as the spirit in the core book (?) chipping blank chips and still be happy as it is all about emulating metahumans and not actually benefiting (or even understanding) the act itself.

Exactly. If it's still hanging out fully on the astral plane, sure, all normal astral sight penalties apply - that makes perfect sense. But if it materializes into the physical world, then it only makes sense for it to be able to see normally enough to get around.

Right (I meant materialize as you correctly assumed btw.)

No, the rare collection of comic books Buttercup inherited from Dunkelzahn (it's in his will, after all).
While you could argue that this might be a jest on his side...

As far as I got dual-natured critters and especially spirits, I always figured that on the physical plane they get "natural" senses as well as keeping their astral vision. Heck, some spirits even get the critter power Enhanced Senses (Low-Light Vision), spirits of beasts, right in the core rulebook.
Based on this: Sure, astral vision ends at the next glass plane. Natural vision gets past that.

Back on topic: I'd be really interested how the drones you want to replace with spirits got so very expensive. What did you add in?
DMiller posted a setup that, while going up to 100.000 bucks, already consists of 11 drones. The GTS Tower can also always choose to stay out of sight, not participating in surveillance, only providing a "base camp" for the Dragonflies. The Dragonflies, on the other hand, are reasonably cheap.
They can, as far as I know, also be the targets of Concealment. That drives their perception penalty to -8: -4 (chameleon coating and thermal insulation, if you add it) + -4 (concealment, spirit force 4), and that's for spotting a drone the size of an insect. So much for blowing stuff out of the sky.
You can also carry those drones on yourself, for coordination's sake.

Pirated autosofts and pilots, if you use only one or two models, can really lower the prize. Well, of course, pirated softs in a legit business... Were those software costs the problem? If you posted one of those drones, we could try to slim it down.

Aside from that, I think your idea can work, enough services from the spirits provided. I still would go both ways, as concealed insect-sized drones can be a whole lot sneakier than man-sized spirits with a sensor package the size of a bread box. Well, my routine solution to in-game problems tends to be "more drones!", so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Of course, concealed drones might run into trouble with wards as they cannot see it. You could mostly avoid that by mapping those out beforehand by searching for the via "Enhanced Detect Magic" or the "Magic Sense" adept power and correcting drone routes accordingly. Spirits cannot get on the other side of wards easily ether way.

And another idea: If you want to make the spirits smaller and sneakier, think about shapechanging them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And then outfit them with a sensor collar.

Just for clarification: Do you expect your "scouts" to be routinely intercepted and attacked, thus taking your route to minimize costs after the spirit is banished? I think a lot of people here still expect to have a scout battalion that actually makes it rather unscathed and thus has low recurring costs, so they plan accordingly.

Just read through Dunklezahn's Will.

I can't but help to think he might have been slightly facetious with this request. Maybe he very well knew she couldn't read them, and there is some kind of hidden message kept in them he knew she'd never see, but knew her love of the art form would keep them safe at the least. Eh...dragons...

Heh, yeah, materialize/manifest - I've occasionally forgotten which is which. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, but now you have a big air spirit carrying around your drone. So while the drone is tiny and has chameleon coating and magical concealment, the spirit is big(ger) and only hidden through its concealment power which in the end makes it as detectable as the drone was before adding stuff (maybe even more).

Also I do not exactly know what your group goes up against as monster hunters but from the name I expect that you encounter critters with astral perception more often than guys with good radar sensors.

But aren't dragons dual-natured as well? If he could read them, why couldn't she?

Nope, the critter needs the power Dual Natured to be dual natured. Dragons' don't have that. Though dragons have a magic rating, so I assume they can astrally project and other similar magician abilities.

By the way, why use drones anyway? Can't you just use a tricked out comlink and let the spirit carry it around?

Also, no idea if this is legal, couldn't you command the spirit to "Go wherever the drone tells you to for the next X hours" and then control it by voice? A whispered voice out of a tiny speaker some several 100 meters in the air won't get you detected.

SR4A Core Rules, p. 303 - Dracoforms, Common Powers, Innate Powers: Dual Natured

That said, we've apparently got non-standard issue ghouls in our campaign, so if the dragons in yours aren't dual-natured, I guess I've got no room to complain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, that's not what I suggested. I don't see the need for a spirit to carry the drone once it is concealed. Spirit applies concealment, then stays behind and keeps it sustained while the drones go to work.

Now, I still think dual-natured critters can perceive both planes, and my quote backs that up, I think.
Problem for ghouls is just that, while being dual-natured, their transition to flesh-eaters of the unsavory kind also blinds them.

Whoops, produced a double post. Sorry.