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Storm Front is out!, Leading to SR5!

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Pepsi Jedi View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:08 AM Post #276
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391	QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:49 PM) [ Spoiler ] QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) So the dragons being major shakers in the world was not motivation enough. Gotcha. (Also I don't think there are tens of thousands of dragons in the Sixth World). Yeah that was a mistype. I edited the post. Thank you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Tens of thousands of metahumans. As for them being movers and shakers. Well they were. And they were powerful and feared. But.. an enemy that' 'can hurt you' is different from one "Killing tens of thousands of metahumans." QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) How did that make his motives and resources any less mysterious? It's like.. the US has a nuclear arsenel. But we've only used it twice. If the US suddenly started nuking countries left right and center, it's a lot different. We'd be a much bigger and more in your face threat. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Except she freely operates the motivations and resources each of the Greats possessed in the GDCW. You can be an expert, on, say, the politics of the EU, but unless you have inside sources, you're not explaining the particulars of political maneuvering in the Europarl behind its decisions the way Frosty explains those for the Greats, and you can trust she has no inside sources. Well, like MUCH of the shadowrun information we have. It's given 'in character' in the books. And thus, is their thoughts or beliefs. Frosty gives her conclusions and speculations based on the information she's gathered. Sometimes she's wrong. Being a said expert, though, she researches before she talks. (( and can also get emotional and shut up by Bull or Jack)) As for her inside sources. She does. She talks about them all the time. "The people I've spoken to with in ___" or "Those working for ___" or "I went to __ and researched for 3 months into the moves and plans of ___" Now, her conclusions could be wrong, and she could be getting false information or even just misinturperting it, but as the 'expert in the field' she's generally accepted to have looked into _____ before she speaks on it. Remember in Clutch when Fastjack gets pissed she doesn't pitch in more than she does? It's because she was out gathering information for this. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) That a Great Dragon's retainers are incapable of protecting her lair from a hundred invaders without her getting involved directly It wasn't that they were incapable of protecting the lair. It was that they were purposefully attacking the forest and what not. Hestaby never had huge standing armies. The defense of Shasta was "Who would be stupid enough to attack her Primary lair" Well. Al found some idiots that stupid and paid them enough to try. She came down and ate their faces. Sure.. it's a bit beneath her, as a Great, but she didn't spend billions on mercs to defend the mountain. Her presence had been enough up to that point. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Whole Armed Forces arms have been formed to establish staging grounds for the rest of the force to deploy upon more or less safely (see: the Marines, the VDV). Instead of taking his enemies without the dragons' protection, or without the protection of the Greats, 25 men per hour, a Great Dragon had to wait for them to deploy and organize themselves into a more or less monolithic entity? That goes against the very basic rules of tactics. Not at all. If you've spent a year fortifying your base, setting it up to repell an attack, you dont suddenly empty out your base and move all your defenders 100 KM from your base. That would be abandoning the tactic you've chosen for a year, to try and jump the gun. You don't 'Venture out past the wire' if your entire battle plan is one of defense of your base and resisting the siege. Also stated in the fiction, the dragons started to arrive with the Mercs. Not "All mercs, then all dragons". The Drakes and Greats got there pretty soon too. All three greats were in camp hours before they deployed. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) That they waited two days as the mercs were deploying, until their columns actually started moving, to get the hell out of the projected warzone. I ask agian. How would they know they were there? They were dozens of KM away. I can't even tell you what's happening a block away unless I walk over there. Now, 1000 mercs and a bunch of dragons.. that makes some noise and some notice, but still. If it was 2 or 3 KM away, how would you know? You'd know when you saw them coming. Then you'd get out of dodge. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Static defense line strategy fell with the Maginot. Well dragons wern't awake at the time of the Maginot. lol Al had magic, a huge number of spirits, and a large number of strong adult dragons on his side. He was all Theodin, "They will break on these walls like water" with a bit of 'And then we'll eat their faces and send them running" The dude was also a bit crazy. He didn't run. he thought he could win. Lo showed up with two other greats. Even if you take all the 'adults' away and all the mercs and spirits away..... Al, vs Lo was a 'simple' battle and Al got his ass handed to him. He didn't run, when there was Lo, Lung "I'll kill you with a magic laser from space and point of my finger" and Alressh(Sp?) All three. he was a bit nuts. Maybe he got a piron disease eatin' all those humans or something, but he thought for sure he could win the fight. Clearly he couldn't win it against Lofwyr alone, much less Lo+Two more greats. He was fooling himself from the start.

Critias View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:17 AM Post #277
Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714	This is like watching mimes debate, or something.

All4BigGuns View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:19 AM Post #278
Former Member Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 15-July 12 Member No.: 53,042	QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 15 2013, 11:17 PM) This is like watching mimes debate, or something. No one deserves mime.

Fatum View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:22 AM Post #279
Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589	[ Spoiler ] QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 06:49 AM) I was pointing out how they knew 'now'. As to how they got the info in clutch of dragons, I pointed out in one of my other replys just now (( Just posted it, so you hadn't read it when you posted this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )) That the Dragon Civil war was going on for over a year and killing tens of thousands of Metahumans. That's huge motivation to seek out and obtain said information As I've already said, there were motivations aplenty for that before that. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 06:49 AM) Well the poor people living there didn't have scout forces or Satellite look downs. How much do you know about what's happening the next street over, unless you're there, much less 100KM away? They saw the column and got the heck out of the way. Until they saw it, it might as well have been on the moon. I learn about it perfectly well over the course of my daily life, and you can be sure I'll know if a copter or a tank rumbles there even if I'm spending my whole day indoors. As soon as I decide to leave, I'll warn my neighbors, and soon the whole sprawl will know. That's how rumours work. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 06:49 AM) It's not that they were unable to predict it. It's that they didn't care and it was below them. Racisim on the surface of it is... well it's just stupid. Yet there are racists the world around. And a KKK Member MIGht shut his mouth and duck his head and walk out of harlem with out getting himself killed, but if that hate is enough, he's still going to do/say things that.. yep get him killed. Oh right, so what you're saying is that a Great Dragon and the other dragons with him were just stupid and irrational. Super. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 06:49 AM) With dragons, they really --are-- that powerful and their hatred was huge. Combined with the fact they'd been eating almost 300 humans per day for a year, uncontested with out any reprecussion and the fact that they had a great behind them and thought they could win, edged up their arrogance. Except they weren't fighting metahumans this time, and had they thought they'd win against three other Greats by themselves they wouldn't have hired the mercs to begin with. What they did was like keying your own car. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 06:49 AM) Yeah they were likely carrying alot. And had alot in their vehicles, and likely had drones delivering ammo from the rear through out the battle. Or actuall physical runners (( Spirits would be good for this)) Delivering ammo to the front lines so they could stay engaged. So they had ammo supply lines. I am glad you agree. Those lines can (and must, if it's a battle of exertion) be disrupted, and the ammo storages behind the front lines destroyed. Again, the defenders had all the means to easily do it. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 06:49 AM) Because the Greats were the generals. Generals whom, as it was easily seen in the end, could have just walked through ALL those defensive forces with out effort. I pointed this out in my post. It was a "Show" For Metahumanity. Alone, Lo, Lung and Ar.... How ever you spell her name. could have shreaded all those adult dragons with out effort. Lo killed two... just pointing his finger at um. SPLAT. Just because he killed two of them easily doesn't mean he could've repeated the trick as many times as he'd like. And you can explain literally anything with "Dragon Rules" or "It was a show". QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 06:49 AM) Remember the conventional minefields were in place. Spirits and dragons dropped the beads where needed. So the conventional mines defended certain areas. The glass beads were 'mines on demand' where and when you needed them. Except they had them all over the place by the time the runners got relatively close to the compound, and there was plenty left inside. Anyway, all of this could've been easily avoided by describing the combat without pages upon pages of bland text where nothing in particular happens except N runners blow up on mines. Had the authors stuck to the general descriptions, where a Great Dragon jumping into action and ripping two younger ones to shreds takes a couple of lines instead of half a page, most of the questions the weird specifics written without understanding of tactics raise would've been avoided. And this is part of why I consider the chapter horrible.

Pepsi Jedi View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:28 AM Post #280
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391	QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 11:05 PM) [ Spoiler ] QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Would be easier to believe if not for the other plot holes all over the chapter. But you've yet to find one I haven't been able to explain. (( I do state straight up... I could be wrong!!! I could be misreading motive and purpose. Only the writers can say. But the explinations to the points I've brought up, could fit.)) QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) In the middle of the battle, amid gunfire, offensive magic, spirits, dragon strafing runs and exploding mines all over. I'm sure it wouldn't be easy. "Hard" Still beats 'Certain death at the claws of the Dragons you were supposedly working for" If you witnessed dragons who were supposed to be in your side, killing your buddies over and over and over.... you might hunker down behind something hard and make that white flag out of your sock to wave on a stick and try and yell and come to terms. (( Though Likely it was done via radio and comlink. If nothing else, projecting AR up into the air "HEY WE'RE GETTING HIT BY THESE DRAGONS TOO!! THEy'VE TURNED ON US!! WE WANT TO BE ON YOUR SIDE!!" It was also stated that not all were trusted and an elf even tried to stab Rage in the back. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) That makes no sense and you know it no worse than me. Purposely killing your own troops, even ones you consider utterly disposable, is reducing your own fighting strength and having a chance of treachery. This is, again, extremely obvious even to a kindergartener. And again, I point out. Racism between humans makes no sense. But countless people have killed and been killed over something like their skin color. Even more have been killed on which flavor of imaginary guy you 'beleive in'. It's stupid. It makes ZERO Sense. Why on earth would the color of someone's skin matter to someone else? Most especially to the point of killing them? It's MORONIC. Just as moronic as killing someone because they belive in a different 'god' than you do. Yet, we've seen. Millions and millions of people have died for those stupid reasons. Dragons. (( I kinda hate to say it)) kinda sorta have a bit of a point with their own superiority. Doesn't make it nice, but they are at the apex of the predator/pray chart. They 'are' better than humans. Smarter, faster, stronger, longer lived, more powerful, etc. We just out number them a few million to one. To Dragons, the fact they're 'better' than Metahumanity is pretty much a given. Up to and through the point that they exile a great, for suggesting that they work WITH Metahumanity... and yet, only lock up another great, who killed tens of thousands of metahumans, and was responsible for the humans creating specific 'Anti-dragon' weapons. Is it stupid to attack your own forces? Yep.. but when you see them as stupid hamburgers marching around, you don't really 'care'. The dragons in question were the 'worst of the worst' dragon supremacists, and had been feasting on 90,000 humans. Their arrogance was not smart, but it was clouded with hate and just how intense that arrogance (( Rightful or not)) had entrenched in their minds. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Somehow they weren't in the long hours prior, until a second before they got the order. And Helix states they scavenged for ammo off the dead, so they had plenty of time to do that as the Greats duelled. Well it was towards the end of the fight. They might have passed (most of) their ammo to the forces heading inside, it was the injured, or taitor forces that were remaining out side on cleanup. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) And then came Helix with his axe. Helix was sitting at the mouth of the cave complex. Out of the fight. Street Rage came in with his axe. As for that... well that's kinda his schtick. He's a raging Troll Street Sammi that uses axes. In that bit he didn't say others didn't use guns. But that they charged in to kill him. Al still used his breath attack and thrashed around. At that point they'd been fighting dragons for a day and seen those horrors and wanted some payback. Again, I imagine if they HAD ammo they used that before running up to hack at the dragon, unless they're the type that LIKED Hacking on things. (( Like Street Rage. That's his thing)) Personally... I wouldn't want to get that close to a Great.. but after fighting for that long, I can see the want to finish it "With your hands'. I'd probably have used all my ammo first though. lol QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Anything that can shrug off heavy artillery is ignoring human-portable melee weapons by definition. Usually yeah, but at this point Al had been "opened up" by Lofwyr too. His front looked like hamburger. The "Armor" was breached. It was his gooy center that was hacked at. And even the gooy part was tough enough to last for another half hour. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) That is not how the story goes: he's described as actively counteracting them and killing a few with just his first tail swipe at them. So obviously he was at least conscious and had less wound penalties than needed to render him incapable of melee combat - which means he'd still be able to cast as magic would be a higher stat for him (if you'll excuse the mechanical terms). Naa not really. he was on the ground, broken and tore up, gory and dieing. He just thrashed around and shot off his elemental attack 'blind' if you will. It wasn't like he was going all high tactics. He was "Swatting at the flys buzzing around him" with what ever he had left. he wasn't 'Up and fighting". Lofwyr had beat him down to the point he could just thrash around on the ground as he was attacked. it's a testiment to how strong the greats are, that even in his dieing throws, he took a number of battle hardened metahumans with him. Sort of like.. if an elephant is on the ground dieing.. and you walk up to it, it might lash out with it's trunk and crush your chest, and kill you, even though it couldn't even roll over. Dragons are much bigger, great dragons much much bigger.

Pepsi Jedi View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:29 AM Post #281
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391	QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Mar 15 2013, 11:19 PM) No one deserves mime. lol well the book's only been out, what, two days at this point? I don't wanna just blab all the details in the open, incase people haven't read it yet. Putting it behind the spoiler tag means, if they WANT to read it they can, if not... I don't get screamed at for spilling spoilers. Lemme tell ya, it'd be alot easier to NOT have to get the quoting formats and spoiler tags to work. It's alot harder this way.

Wakshaani View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:32 AM Post #282
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629	Tis a thick and meaty book. I figure it'll take people time to chew through everything.

Fatum View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:42 AM Post #283
Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589	[ Spoiler ] QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:28 AM) But you've yet to find one I haven't been able to explain. (( I do state straight up... I could be wrong!!! I could be misreading motive and purpose. Only the writers can say. But the explinations to the points I've brought up, could fit.)) Quite a few of this explanations are really far-fetched. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:28 AM) I'm sure it wouldn't be easy. "Hard" Still beats 'Certain death at the claws of the Dragons you were supposedly working for" If you witnessed dragons who were supposed to be in your side, killing your buddies over and over and over.... you might hunker down behind something hard and make that white flag out of your sock to wave on a stick and try and yell and come to terms. (( Though Likely it was done via radio and comlink. If nothing else, projecting AR up into the air "HEY WE'RE GETTING HIT BY THESE DRAGONS TOO!! THEy'VE TURNED ON US!! WE WANT TO BE ON YOUR SIDE!!" It was also stated that not all were trusted and an elf even tried to stab Rage in the back. Beating it would've been much easier, and Helix states some of them did. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:28 AM) Is it stupid to attack your own forces? Yep.. but when you see them as stupid hamburgers marching around, you don't really 'care'. The dragons in question were the 'worst of the worst' dragon supremacists, and had been feasting on 90,000 humans. Their arrogance was not smart, but it was clouded with hate and just how intense that arrogance (( Rightful or not)) had entrenched in their minds. Yeah, I got you. The moment you have to pull stupid Great Dragons into your reasoning, you know you're wide off. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:28 AM) Helix was sitting at the mouth of the cave complex. Out of the fight. Street Rage came in with his axe. Right. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:28 AM) In that bit he didn't say others didn't use guns. But that they charged in to kill him. Al still used his breath attack and thrashed around. At that point they'd been fighting dragons for a day and seen those horrors and wanted some payback. Again, I imagine if they HAD ammo they used that before running up to hack at the dragon, unless they're the type that LIKED Hacking on things. (( Like Street Rage. That's his thing)) He made no mention anyone used guns (they charged, after all). And the only more or less realistic reason for that instead of searching for ammo since they've run dry all of a sudden or using magic is lazy writing. Especially minding that the dragon still had enough fight in him to use his breath weapon. Nothing in the text indicates he was just thrashing around instead of consciously fighting the runners (and also there's nothing offering any explanation why'd a dragon supremacist Golden Snout have metahumans kill a Great Dragon and how that relates to the dragon ethical system).

NeoJudas View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:44 AM Post #284
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados \| San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106	QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Mar 15 2013, 07:10 PM) Ahhh, the joys of being a tyrant means that there's no laws against applying laws ex post facto. I hope Hestaby is hiring Runners to spring P from the big house, because it's blatantly obvious this is a kangaroo court before a judge and jury of one. I know that idea is on my list of possibles..

Pepsi Jedi View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 04:58 AM Post #285
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391	QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 11:22 PM) [ Spoiler ] QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) As I've already said, there were motivations aplenty for that before that. And alot more motivation when they started killing people by the tens of thousands. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) I learn about it perfectly well over the course of my daily life, and you can be sure I'll know if a copter or a tank rumbles there even if I'm spending my whole day indoors. As soon as I decide to leave, I'll warn my neighbors, and soon the whole sprawl will know. That's how rumours work. But even a KM away, you likely wouldn't know... 3 KM away you'd pretty much definatly not know unless you went right over there. And if you did... you know, the mercs and dragons might not let you leave. The forces in question were what, 60 to 100Km away? That's like knowing what's going on two or three citys distant. You think the people whom had been prey of dragons for a year, to the point 90,000 had been eaten would have went to peek at the huge group of dragons and mercs? QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Oh right, so what you're saying is that a Great Dragon and the other dragons with him were just stupid and irrational. Super. Arrogant to the point of stupidity, yeah. Kinda. Again, racsim in the real world is stupid. killing someone over their imaginary god is even more stupid, but millions have met their death over it. Dragons... kinda have a 'point' with their arrogance. It's not nice but 1:1, you gotta admit they are stronger, faster, smarter. It's a simi-deserved arrogance. With THESE dragons, you're talking about the extremists. In humans, they'd be the kind to strap on bombs or fly planes into towers. But they're dragons. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Except they weren't fighting metahumans this time, and had they thought they'd win against three other Greats by themselves they wouldn't have hired the mercs to begin with. What they did was like keying your own car. I'm not saying their actions were smart. I'm saying they saw themselves above the humans to the point that they just didn't care. Again these are extremists. What they were doing was stupid. It could only end one way really. With them dieing. But in their extremism, they thought they'd win. Just like some moron terrorist extremist might think his god will protect him. These dragons were "SURE" in the "DRAGON RIGHT TO RULE AND DO WHAT EVER THEY WANT" to the point they didn't see common sense. I mean even if Lo didn't go in there, sooner or later the powers that be would have said "You know.... 90,000 was one thing, but they've killed 500,000 now.. or 1,000,000 now.. or 10,000,000 now.. we gotta put a stop to this..... " and just Thor shot, or nuke um. I'm --really-- not saying Extremists are smart, but in their own lil world, it makes sense to them. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) So they had ammo supply lines. I am glad you agree. Those lines can (and must, if it's a battle of exertion) be disrupted, and the ammo storages behind the front lines destroyed. Again, the defenders had all the means to easily do it. Ehhh not 'Supply lines'. They had runners or delivery from the vehicles or the rear. which was still with in sight of the front lines. Probably out of range of your standard battle rifle, but not so far back that the trip took more than a minute or two, depending on conveyance. Again, if you're dug in, you're defending. Not extending out huge distances from your defensive perimeter. And... those three Great Dragon's were 'In the Rear with the Gear'. Are you going to move THROUGH the enemy lines, and try and take out supplys with Three Greats standing there? Likely not. the two that DARED move towards the greats, were instantly vaporized. lol. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Just because he killed two of them easily doesn't mean he could've repeated the trick as many times as he'd like. Probably not.. but are you going to be the guy to bet your life on his Space Laser Magic being out of ammo? You going to be the third dragon to risk being vaporized with the point of a claw? It'd be like you or I standing in a street, and seeing a battle tank fire and vaporize two guys a few feet from us. just BOOOM And they're a red mist, and me looking to you and going 'Hey man!! How many shells can he have in there? GET UM!!!" and telling you to charge. You're going to look at me and go "FRAK YOU!! YOU GET HIM!! I'm RUNNING" QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) And you can explain literally anything with "Dragon Rules" or "It was a show". But in this case, that's the point. The three greats didn't jump in till the very end, and when they did. Poof. Battle was over. Soo.. they were either playing by Dragon Rules, which allows your pawns to pound on one another, but if the Greats get in it, it's a breech of etiquette... or.... the three greats put on a show on purpose, sacrificing all those people and dragons... for their own (( unfathomable, or at least unknown at this point)) Dragony reason. if you look up in the thread, when I finished the chapter, in my review, I stated straight up that it seemed like this was all calculated with purpose. Had to be. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Except they had them all over the place by the time the runners got relatively close to the compound, and there was plenty left inside. They had conventional mines around the walls, because the Dragons could just fly over them. The beads were more 'Deployed as needed' depending on where they wanted metahumans to blow up. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Anyway, all of this could've been easily avoided by describing the combat without pages upon pages of bland text where nothing in particular happens except N runners blow up on mines. Had the authors stuck to the general descriptions, where a Great Dragon jumping into action and ripping two younger ones to shreds takes a couple of lines instead of half a page, most of the questions the weird specifics written without understanding of tactics raise would've been avoided. And this is part of why I consider the chapter horrible. Some of us like the details. It's mostly a Fluff book. Not a 'Crunch' book. You want the story, not the cliff's notes. I rather enjoied the page on page of text. I didn't think it was bland. It was describing the horror of the event in detail. If you just give general descriptions, it doesn't have flash. It doesn't catch you. We all knew the general event. It was the details that make it a story. Again, you might not like the tactics, but there were tactics used. Up to and including PURPOSEFULLY constructing an attack force that would not work together as well as it could. Lo went out of his way to do that. He's a genius, he didn't do it by accident. It was pointed out in the book, that this was a silly way to form up an attack force. Yet the Dragon that took control and formed a mega in a second on the matrix did so. It had to be on purpose, if even the metahumans were figuring it out. I think part of the problem, is that the Dragons, the Greats anyway, were purposefully fighting this battle, in a way where most of their forces died. And that seems counter intuative. "Why fight a battle you yourself could end in a few seconds?" Well, when you ask that question, you're at the point of pausing and going "Maybe they had a REASON, to fight this battle, in this seemingly stupid way" Al's forces had to know they were out classed. They had one great and Lo had three. The greats were powerful enough that when Lung or Aresh finally got into it, they each killed two adults in seconds, effortlessly and routed what.. 9 others. Poof. Just like that? Yet, they fought due to their fanatisisim in their 'cause' Lo, likely could have done it all single handedly, but he didn't. he went through the motions of assembling this.... very strange force, to make this attack, and he stood back and watched till the end. Where in he swept in, put claw to ass, then didn't even dignify Al with a Dragon death. He either shunned Al so hard, that he 'let' metahumans kill him, to add insult to injury... or he planned it that way and let the metahumans kill him, for his own purpose (( Like making Metahumans think they had a chance of taking down a Great, and that not all Dragons were 'evil". So while the tactics might seem 'strange' they were clearly done for a point. We're just not sure what was going on in their heads yet. We just have clear indications that SOMETHING was, and there was reason. They gotta save something for SR5 after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

CanRay View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 05:05 AM Post #286
Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465	My brain hurts!

All4BigGuns View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 05:06 AM Post #287
Former Member Group: Members Posts: 814 Joined: 15-July 12 Member No.: 53,042	QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 16 2013, 12:05 AM) My brain hurts! Here, this might help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) jabs CanRay in the ribs with a cattle prod (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

CanRay View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 05:07 AM Post #288
Immortal Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465	QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Mar 16 2013, 12:06 AM) Here, this might help. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) jabs CanRay in the ribs with a cattle prod (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Falls Over Almost Dead From Stun Overflow

Pepsi Jedi View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 05:19 AM Post #289
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391	QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 11:42 PM) [ Spoiler ] QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Quite a few of this explanations are really far-fetched. They're Super Duper Supernatural dragons. They have different priorities than we do. The explinations arn't that far off. On one side you have Dragon extreamists/ surpremisists who have so much hate and surperiority complexes that they've killed and eaten almost 100,000 metahumans in a year. On the other side you have three great dragons coming to kill the first group. They're doing it publicly in a way that makes it look like Metahumans did the 'hard part' and 'helped' and 'earned the glory' and... if you think about it.. "Payback" to forstall the rest of humanity going "Ok you killed the bad guy, but we still lost 90,000!!!" Lo and crew let the battle play out to look like "Metahumanity passed judgement and carried out the execution for those crimes". Pretty smart when you look at it that way. Even if Lo could have just killed them all. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Beating it would've been much easier, and Helix states some of them did. Depends really. Lo's forces and mercs infront of you. Al and his dragons behind. Where to run, where to run? Some did bug out, but if you saw half your unit die to purposeful 'Friendly fire" you might want some payback for your buddies. Also might be looking long term, to the point of "Don't hire THAT guy... not only did the idiot fight or Al, but then he ran away like a little girl when going got tough!!" QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Yeah, I got you. The moment you have to pull stupid Great Dragons into your reasoning, you know you're wide off. The old saying applys. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts Absolutely. History is littered with tyrants who think they can take on the world and win. They all die in the end. Usually by violence. Seldom to Tyrants live to old age. Is Arrogance stupid? Sure. Is it extremely common? Yes. Is it even more common the higher up the power structure you get? Yep. Being a Tyrant and eating 90,000 humans isn't too smart. Especially when humans have Thor shots and nukes... but Al thought he was above humanity. The Dragons with him, believed in their power and supremacy. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Right. He made no mention anyone used guns (they charged, after all). You can charge while firing your weapon. Turn on the TV. Switch channels till you find someone shooting a gun. Watch for about 30 seconds. See? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Seriously though, you can run forward while shooting. You say he made no mention of anyone used guns. he made no mention of anyone using melee weapons other than himself either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) And the only more or less realistic reason for that instead of searching for ammo since they've run dry all of a sudden or using magic is lazy writing. Sure there is. You're totally not factoring in hate or revenge. They all wanted to be the one to deliver the death blow. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Especially minding that the dragon still had enough fight in him to use his breath weapon. Yeah, breathing is hard!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Joking aside, As I pointed out, he was down, couldn't get up, could only thrash around and use that last intrinsic ability. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) Nothing in the text indicates he was just thrashing around instead of consciously fighting the runners Yes there is. "Not allowing him to get up, Lofwyr pounced on Alamais and bore down on him with multiple swipes of his claws that tore into his flesh. Alamais’ face, neck, and chest looked like tenderized meat after Lofwyr ceased his blows on the wounded dragon. I stopped counting after thirty strikes. Although Alamais was still alive, he was no longer in any condition to threaten Lofwyr, even in Lofwyr’s own damaged condition." His face, neck, and chest looked like tenderized meat., and he was down and in no condition to threaten lofwyr. "Alamais did his best to swipe at us, trying to kill us before we killed him. I saw six, including two of my own chummers, struck down by the force of Alamais’ strike." So he was down, his flesh looked like tenderized meat, and he "Did his best to swipe at us" trying to kill them before they killed him. He managed to strike down 6, but the rest took him out. He wasn't out cold. He just didn't have the juice left to do much. One burst of breath and he "did his best" to try and hit them. Then they finished him off. QUOTE (Fatum @ Mar 15 2013, 10:03 PM) (and also there's nothing offering any explanation why'd a dragon supremacist Golden Snout have metahumans kill a Great Dragon and how that relates to the dragon ethical system). He did though. Lofwyr could have finished him off easily but didn't. Yes, we can speculate as to why, but it was clear he -chose- not to. So there can be many reasons he did it. Some or all of them might be true. We won't know till the writers tell us. We do know the Dragon Ethical system is pretty skewed. But which ways, are hard to nail down. Again I point to the slap on the wrist Sirrung gets, compaired to stripping of every worldly possession, land, and exile for Hestaby for what would seem to be a much much lessor crime.

Pepsi Jedi View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 05:20 AM Post #290
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391	Ok!! I'm going to go read some more of the book! Catch you guys later.

NeoJudas View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 05:21 AM Post #291
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados \| San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106	QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 16 2013, 06:07 AM) Falls Over Almost Dead From Stun Overflow Walks over, drops a hand fan complete with nearly depleted battery and walks away I'm sorry guys, all the spoilers are one thing, and I do respect it. But ultimately it's a conversation of polars opposites. I can explain it all easily.... No ne will like the answer of course. It's a game, get over it. I nearly dropped my iPad while reading the game information section alone. I want to go on record here and now.... The games we've had here for now are power games, tried and true. But those game mechanics...... I have shakes trying to imagine who merged the Shadowrun and Earthdawn attributes like this.........

Fatum View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 05:25 AM Post #292
Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,801 Joined: 2-September 09 From: Moscow, Russia Member No.: 17,589	[ Spoiler ] QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) And alot more motivation when they started killing people by the tens of thousands. Owning a megacorp or destroying a major city involves this already. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) But even a KM away, you likely wouldn't know... 3 KM away you'd pretty much definatly not know unless you went right over there. And if you did... you know, the mercs and dragons might not let you leave. The forces in question were what, 60 to 100Km away? That's like knowing what's going on two or three citys distant. You think the people whom had been prey of dragons for a year, to the point 90,000 had been eaten would have went to peek at the huge group of dragons and mercs? The people living near would know, and soon everyone would know. Again: rumour mills! QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) Ehhh not 'Supply lines'. They had runners or delivery from the vehicles or the rear. which was still with in sight of the front lines. Probably out of range of your standard battle rifle, but not so far back that the trip took more than a minute or two, depending on conveyance. Again, if you're dug in, you're defending. Not extending out huge distances from your defensive perimeter. And... those three Great Dragon's were 'In the Rear with the Gear'. Are you going to move THROUGH the enemy lines, and try and take out supplys with Three Greats standing there? Likely not. the two that DARED move towards the greats, were instantly vaporized. lol. No modern doctrine uses static defense, and none will because static defense is vulnerable to force concentration. Static defense ended with the 1930ies. And when you have spirits diving through the ground and dragons doing bombing dives to and fro, yeah, you're having no problems reaching the immediate back lines. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) Probably not.. but are you going to be the guy to bet your life on his Space Laser Magic being out of ammo? You going to be the third dragon to risk being vaporized with the point of a claw? It'd be like you or I standing in a street, and seeing a battle tank fire and vaporize two guys a few feet from us. just BOOOM And they're a red mist, and me looking to you and going 'Hey man!! How many shells can he have in there? GET UM!!!" and telling you to charge. You're going to look at me and go "FRAK YOU!! YOU GET HIM!! I'm RUNNING" It can take a single bullet to kill a soldier. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) But in this case, that's the point. The three greats didn't jump in till the very end, and when they did. Poof. Battle was over. Soo.. they were either playing by Dragon Rules, which allows your pawns to pound on one another, but if the Greats get in it, it's a breech of etiquette... or.... the three greats put on a show on purpose, sacrificing all those people and dragons... for their own (( unfathomable, or at least unknown at this point)) Dragony reason. Let me reiterate: an explanation that allows you to explain anything at all ("that was God's will", "it was a coincidence", "those were Dragon rules") is essentially worthless. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) Some of us like the details. It's mostly a Fluff book. Not a 'Crunch' book. You want the story, not the cliff's notes. I rather enjoied the page on page of text. I didn't think it was bland. It was describing the horror of the event in detail. If you just give general descriptions, it doesn't have flash. It doesn't catch you. We all knew the general event. It was the details that make it a story. Helix's chapter did not have details, Rage's did. Helix went on and on and on without anything in particular happening: "So we shot those guys and they shot us and a dozen ours died and we moved on and shot those guys etc". No colorful descriptions, nothing too interesting happening, no emotional response, no nothing. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) Again, you might not like the tactics, but there were tactics used. Up to and including PURPOSEFULLY constructing an attack force that would not work together as well as it could. Lo went out of his way to do that. He's a genius, he didn't do it by accident. It was pointed out in the book, that this was a silly way to form up an attack force. Yet the Dragon that took control and formed a mega in a second on the matrix did so. It had to be on purpose, if even the metahumans were figuring it out. Lowfyr is a genius, but the authors of the book might not be. QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 16 2013, 07:58 AM) So while the tactics might seem 'strange' they were clearly done for a point. We're just not sure what was going on in their heads yet. We just have clear indications that SOMETHING was, and there was reason. I admire the strength of your belief that all that nonsense must have a hidden purpose. But minding that we're talking a book that wasn't proofread and edited, I don't share that belief.

Grinder View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 08:31 AM Post #293
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698	Fatum, P.J.: get over it or continue your "discussion" via PM.

lokii View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 09:16 AM Post #294
Keeper of the Timeline Maps Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 21-December 10 Member No.: 19,243	Now, I'm ready to entertain both possibilities that Fatum is overly judgmental and unforgiving or that Pepsi Jedi is unjustifiably generous in making it work. Of course my own prejudices point me towards siding with Fatum. Especially since he is not only critising Storm Front but also other recent material. For example the only part of Clutch of Dragons I looked at so far, is Frosty's piece on Harlequin. I did not understand how we got from "you don't need to know that, chummer" to "here is my life's story, dear friends". Ending on the low point of being hacked by Harlequin ... again, that silly little thing. This is not to say that it cannot be entertaining or an interesting story to tell. But there are other considerations. Jackpoint is supposed to show the perspective of runners, who should collect this information not to immerse themselves in the grand struggles of the world but to know how to stay away from them or at most make a few nuyen if they are into the risk. Who should also know the delicate balance between an amount of knowledge that helps you survive and one that makes you a target. It's my impression with the dragon plotline the Jackpoint community got too close for comfort. I get that there are many interesting stories to tell within Shadowrun that are only peripherally connected to the shadows. But I'd rather have some percentage of a book describing a well constructed interesting event in the Sixth World than something that loses coherence in bending over to make it runner-relevant. Some minor spoilers ahead, I guess. To me this is still largely a problem of execution (though I also question parts of the overall vision). Take Aztlan and Amazonia, this is.. well was an interesting conflict. A modern, sinister, industrial army pitted against the forces of nature, but War! didn't do the premise justice at all. From what I heard having it end in Storm Front with no meaningful changes is frankly yawn-inducing. Okay, so a new player in the region (haven't figured out the abbreviation to be honest), more people dead, something about the power structure of Amazonia changed. To the last one, for the little we know about Amazonia it could be just one less dragon at the office, who never did anything besides being grumpy and snacking on interns anyway. If I'm to believe Fatum the problems with both internal and canon inconsistency prevail. Further reviews and my own eventual reading of the book will tell. Last, to whoever wondered about why Hestaby gets a treatment that under some considerations seems worse than Sirrurg's (personally I would prefer free and poor to incarcerated and wealthy). This would strike me as actually quite consistent. Her UN speech in State of the Art: 2073 is another thing I didn't like in concept as well as execution, but let's take it at face value. She strikes me as a radical incomparable to anything Dunkelzahn ever did in life and even his posthumous "actions" as a way of exerting his power from beyond the grave are still quite in accordance with draconic aspirations. Hestaby on the other side, apart from the ludicrous idea to get even more nations involved in bringing a dragon to justice who per her explanation was enraged by a single nation doing more or less just that, turns on dragon society by getting (meta)humans involved in their affairs not as pawns mind you as the judges of draconic conduct. To add insult to injury she pleas to consider (!) allowing a Great Dragon to sit as one (!) judge at Sirrurg's trial. This by the way was my biggest problem with the whole speech. Hestaby shows herself utterly undeserving of Dunkelzahn's inheritance. She basically blew it and I can only imagine that whatever remains of him almost fell into the chasm when he heard the whole story. Even if Dunkelzahn had this kind of equality between dragons and metahumanity in mind for the future, this was certainly not the way to go about it. No, this vile thought criminal had to be removed from dragon society. And her not getting a worse sentence shows to me either a soft spot on the side of Lofwyr or that her ideas have spread enough to other dragons that he feared making her a martyr. At least that is how I read it from, you know, what I remember of how it used to work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Wakshaani View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 09:28 AM Post #295
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629	Re: Hestaby. There's long been a discussion about just how genuine Hestaby is. Quite a few Greats watched Dunk work the crowd and be transformed from a big scary DRAGON to ... Big D. You work hard for someone you fear ... you give your LIFE for someone you love. Hestaby was positioned, more and more, as "The Good Dragon", the one that had humanity's back and was right there, turning on her own kind to save the peace if it came to that. Was it all an act? Was any of it an act? It's easy to forget that she's arguably the most powerful magician of all the Greats, was nestled in a place of great power, and that she won the great dragon contest in Survival of teh Fittest. Oh, sure, she gave the spot to Lofwyr, but she came in ahead of Ghostwalker, Lung, Celadyr... she's able to get what she wants. Oh, she rolled the dice and came up snake eyes, but was she a fool to roll 'em in the first place? What would she have gained if it'd worked? If the UN brought Sirrurg down, showed that humanity could kick Dragon hindparts, and that, with her help, the humans could corral all the other Greats? A wee bit more dangerous than "Sirrurg SMASH puny humans!", I do believe.

lokii View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 09:44 AM Post #296
Keeper of the Timeline Maps Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 21-December 10 Member No.: 19,243	Well, she goes from being a blundering flowery idealist to a blundering power-crazy maniac. "I'll make a dragon out of you yet, kiddo!" No honestly, it's a scenario under which the whole UN episode makes much more sense. It would assume that Dunkelzahn either misjudged her character (which is also an enticing thought) or is himself much less altruistic than he appeared in the past. Now if any of this is hinted at even as a possibility in material I just haven't read yet, I would be much more forgiving of the SotA73, if you are applying it as a post-factual fix, well at least it shows that you can always turn a story around.

Lionhearted View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 10:13 AM Post #297
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,930 Joined: 9-April 05 From: Scandinavian Union Member No.: 7,310	Intriguing... I haven't read it but from what you're saying it seems that they're going out of their way to show "that even gods can bleed" and if the greats are not unassailable I hope we will see more dynamism in metahumanity's dealing with the dragons. The age of dragons and legends has past, maybe it's time to let them know that.

Ixal View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 11:05 AM Post #298
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 25-February 13 Member No.: 76,416	When so many people are disappointed with the the power thrown around by great dragons, why not talk about the other stuff in the book? So far no one has mentioned much what the Japancorps are up to. [ Spoiler ] Basically a new wave of patriotism/nationalism hit Japan and the big 3 Japan AAAs decided to present a unified front towards the outside world. Inside Japanese borders they are at each others throats like normal. Outside of it they help each other to "rise again". They push hard into North America and are determined to exploit Ares and Aztechnologies current weakness and all 3 aim their sights at NeoNet. Renraku deserves a special mention as they are crawling back out of the pit they have fallen in. [ Spoiler ] To do that they completely shifted their focus from technology to service and use all the access they have for data mining. So when you want to enjoy the services offered by Renraku (the example in the book is a Spa) make sure to carry a expendable comlink for the visit. Having a mask while visiting a Spa might be a bit problematic though. I still need time to digest the Brackhaven piece. Politics make my head spin, especially when I read them late night.

Patrick Goodman View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 01:44 PM Post #299
Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388	QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 15 2013, 11:05 PM) My brain hurts! That happens with mimes. If anything the mimes are arguing about concerns me or something I wrote, I hope someone tells me.

Ixal View Member Profile	Mar 16 2013, 02:46 PM Post #300
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 25-February 13 Member No.: 76,416	QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Mar 16 2013, 02:44 PM) That happens with mimes. If anything the mimes are arguing about concerns me or something I wrote, I hope someone tells me. Well I don't know what you wrote in the book, but the whole conversation was about the FALL OF A DRAGON chapter.

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