Hello everyone,

My first post on this forum. I'm usually on the shadowrun4 forum but I figured I'd give it a shot overhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway,we have been playing SR for a while now and my group found the melee rules to be a bit underwelming when compared to the ranged rules.
No their question is "Why cant we just make the melee attacks simple actions to instead of complex just like the firearms?"

No I fully understand melee movement to be more complex then firing a gun, and so its a complex action.
And perhaps melee is less "powerful" in purpose in this way for realism purposes.

But what I really want to know is, does turning melee into simple actions break the game? Does it unbalance things?
I'm not entirely sure if it does or not. I can see some problems with some martialarts specializations though.

Is it simply dont bring a knife(sword) to a gun fight? or is there more to it?

Seeing how you can get your damage up way high in close combat, be it through terch or even more through magic, yes, there is a danger of breaking it . .

But doesnt that count for ranged attacks too?

To an extent, yes.
But it's harder to get impact armor up than it is to get ballistic armor up.

Could you give me some examples of how melee damage can go up so high?

Adept powers like Killing Fist
Adept powers like Elemental Strike
Cyber like Titanium Bones
Martial arts qualities like Krav Maga (grants +1 DV to unarmed attacks, takable up to 3 times)

Combining those, you get unarmed warriors who are doing things like Str/2 + 8.

Average Joe: Strength 3 (Muscle Replacement or Augmentation 4) = 7, base damage of 4S. Add in Bone Density Augmentation or Bone Lacing, and it can easily go up to 8P. THEN add one or more martial arts and you have an average human with a base DV of 9-10P.
That's still not really bad, but now imagine a troll. An adept, with martial arts, maybe, with Str 9, Critical Strike 6, Penetrating Strike 3, Killing Hands, maybe even an elemental attack.
12P, -3 AP without attribute boost, right there. At +1 Reach (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

None of these high DVs really make a lot of difference in comparison to a decent gun, though. Close combat is not necessarily underpowered, but a lot less powered than ranged combat. As it should be, IMO. Unfortunately, close combat with weapons is usually worse than unarmed, and to really make it worthwhile, you have to dump a lot of statpoints and building points and even qualities into being effective at it. Which is, at a closer look, also how it should be. You have to invest a lot of time to learn a martial art, whereas it is much easier to learn how to shoot.

Close combat Missions style just plain sucks, though. Wouldn't touch a melee oriented character with a ten foot pole there.

Okay, so basically you're saying as it is melee can do the damage in one attack (complex action) that ranged can do in two ranged attacks (simple actions) ?

I've seen some massive damage being delt out through ranged attacks.

right, so firearms are more powerful then melee then... I mean thats logical too in my opinion, but a street sam with a katana should be at least a bit scary instead of "meh I've got a gun" ?

Usually as the result of the dice, not the base DV.

Remember, the highest base DV any gun has is about 8 (without getting into the higher powered sniper rifles). You can add to that using burst fire, but at a loss in dice (and that damage isn't used in the modified DV when comparing to armor; you might be doing 18DV with that full burst, but it's still stun!).

The reason for massive damage taken in ranged combat is usually an easier staging mechanism:

a) You roll less dice to evade the attack (usually just reaction, with full defense reaction+dodge)
b) Narrow bursts give an easily achievable higher base damage
c) Ammunition will do something similar

However, it is, as Stahlseele pointed out, easier to stack up ballistic armor than impact armor, so it is usually also easier to stage it down.

Making a close combat attack a simple action could make it very high powered. I'm not sure about breaking the system, though.
There are a ton of martial arts maneuvers that use your next attack and that could end up making some fights really really short (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd suggest to just try it and see how it goes. Preferably with a maxed out martial arts adept, with high DV and probably stuff like combat sense, counterstrike, elemental attack and the works.



Well. Depends on the gun, and the distance. If the samurai is in 8m distance and I have only a pistol, I wouldn't see my chances too high.
If he's in a killzone, I have an MG and he's 50m down the line ... well, then it's exactly "Meh, I've got a gun" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well a street sam with a katana usually is scary. For a street sam not optimized for melee combat but with a little effort devoted to probably has strength 6, agi 7, and 2 skills with a specialization in swords (or equivalent from skill wires). They're going to do 6P -1AP base and a 12 dice pool for their attack. Maybe not one strike kill territory like something optimized for melee, but if a street sam has managed to close to melee range with you, you're going to be dead on their next pass.

I don't think your change will break the game however, because the limit on melee has always been the need to get close enough to use it while people are shooting at you. Letting them kill people a little better once they get there isn't a big deal.

I might instead though, just up the base damage of all melee weapons since they usually have less net hits to pump the damage up with and penalties for calling a shot are a bigger detriment to their pools. It also makes unarmed less of an obviously superior option. If a combat axe was str/2+6P and a katana was str/2+5P, the street sam with a melee weapon is much closer to being in that seriously threatening range and you didn't have to add a second attack. And stun batons stop being much more dangerous than swords.

I know we've covered this recently but, in reality this comment stands up, but in SR it does not

a SAM with a sword up close and personal is no more scary than if he was a tiny speck in the sniper sights. he SHOULD be .. but RAW does not support this view.

12 dice vs. a guard with REA 5 and bod 4 and armour say 5 as well

so say SAM does well and gets 4 hits, guard gets 2 and has to resist maybe 8P ? rolls average and takes a slice for 3 boxes (another -1 to his actions)

vs.

2 shots from a holdout with SnS or even just EX_EX .. at a total of -1 to his DP

-2 from electric shock, chance to be unconscious, or just plain dead, SAM cannot deflect the arm or the gun barrel unless he wastes an IP on full defense to DODGE
cannot parry the gun, cannot block the gun

and the guard though can stick his hand out and catch the Katana between 2 fingers and completely deflect a monofilament sword as if it were paper while doing it.

I'm starting to sound bitter again, I know sorry ... but melee weapons are utterly underwhelming unless the opponent is sleeping or "unaware"

and as soon as combat starts, unaware goes out the window.

Thanks for all the replies everyone! it really helps a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Raising the base damage of melee weapons isn't a bad idea and solution, and something I like better then turning the complex into a simple action.

Depends on the shooter. And the target.


If that is how you interpret a block, then that is your prerogative ... and problem. The rules allow it, people do it, and it can mean everything from 'swatting aside the blade without touching the edge' to 'kicking the opponent in the shins so he misses the swing' due to the abstract nature of close combat.
There is no hard rule and fact


In Missions, yes.
My adept does just fine, both unarmed and with his rating 4 weapon focus, thank you very much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
As does my bone density augmented face/sam.

*nods*
melee, especially with weapons, was way more impressive under SR3 rules . .
STR+4D with 3 Reach in a Troll with 16 STR and 14 Body?
I don't care if there's a car between me and him, i'll cleave him in half!


The biggest change to the close combat system was that in SR3, no matter who initiated the attack, it was an opposed test and whoever had more hits did his damage to the other one.

So if you'd change the melee system to improve on it, what would you do? turn the attacks into simple ones, raise the base damage value on weapons? both?

Sorry for hijacking mate, I'd have liked to see it as simples vs complex too, but that is only one side of a double edged sword, making big choppy choppy is not Everything involved in melee weapons



But I don't want to have to go to such extremes, or be able to cleave cars in half (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) although that would be fun

I'm talking about a peak of metaa-human capability or cybered up to the eyeballs (STR =8 AGI = 8 ) with top training (Blades 4 or 5) and a top of the line personalised grip katana or vibrosword or other piece of sharp pointy ! Should be fairly competent at defending as well as attacking.

@Bannockburn : I agree with you in the other post I made about using melee skill in defense .. really good "HouseRule" and it goes a long way to what I think a melee SAM should be capable of, but it's not in a missions class toon. without added cheese.

I don't want to play a TROLL to optimise the bejeebus out of it, (well I do, but not in my current games) I like having a downside to to the character, it's just the downside is so steep it's almost cliff like.

You all seem t ohave a view that a SAM with a melee weapon once he closes is absolutely deadly, but I can't see a single reason or example how ?
defender is at -1 to fire into melee but can literally dance circles around you to defend while you cannot defend against them at all

***Edited for clarity***

Technically, to optimze it, you need to play an Elf.
Because SOMEBODY decided that Attribute for all combat is suddenly agility.
And more dice is more important than doing more raw damage, because you get more damage with hits from dice anyway.

If you want the melee system to be better raise the malus for using guns in melee so people actually can be forced into melee for defense.

What houserule would that be, exactly?


Uhm. Yes, roughly 3 dice to 1 raw damage. How are dice better after being able to defeat the opposing roll?

yeah, or Ork... considering the amount of damage you need to soak to get into combat first (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and to do some damage after


think you said you allow your players to use their melee skill in their defense rather than just dodge.

I might have misread.. ** EDIT** I think I have completely mis-attributed a comment to you.
Still agree with what you have said, but I'm not going to rant in this thread any longer as there's no RAW that lets Blades benefit unless you can get access to martial arts.

Ah okay, I was a bit puzzled (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks for clarifying and yes, I agree.

A good start is to fiat that opponents never are within 1m of one another unless one is unaware of the other. Net -1 for shooting in melee? come on!

I don't think Unarmed melee is underpowered, but armed melee is pretty lack luster. Except boosting a skill, buying a weapon and learning some martial arts, there is not much you can do. If you want to make it more powerful, maybe introduce new adept powers that work like the traditional adept powers but apply to melee attacks with one of the other melee skills (in addition to killing hands there is killing blades/clubs; critical strike (blades/clubs), elemental strike (blades/clubs) etc.).

That's just RAW. You can always choose to use your weapon skill + reaction to defend against a melee attack rather than dodge, if you have a weapon. It's called parrying.

If we use your numbers from earlier and assume that said guard has a dodge of 3 and he even has an extra initiative pass. So he defends against a melee attack with 8 dice.

He's charged by the street sam who isn't optimized for melee combat. First round, the street sam charges, he's now rolling 14 dice instead of 12 against the defenders 8. The sam on average will get about 2 net hits and hits the majority of the time, so the guard is rolling to soak 8P with 8 dice. On an average roll he's taking 5P. He's at a penalty of -1 and has had about half his boxes filled. And since that 5P exceeded his body score, he's knocked down.

The guard then tries to shoot the street sam, but he's in melee combat with the street sam so he's taking -3 to shoot the street sam and depending on how you rule it, if the street sam has reach on him the guard doesn't have the advantage of firing at point blank range. So when the guard is trying to return fire he's doing so at -4 to his shot (-3 melee, -1 wound) and the street sam gets a +2 to their defense because they were running on their previous action. So the guard doesn't have much chance of hitting the street sam on this pass unless he's got a pretty high pool to begin with.

On the next pass. The street sam is attacking the guard with a pool of 12 vs. 7 if he didn't manage to knock him down and 15 vs. 5 if he did. The street sam will hit the guard again, this time for another 7 or 8P. The defender will again soak 3 of that. At which point the defender is looking a -3 from wound penalties. The guard can try to retaliate but they're taking a -6 to their shots because they're still in melee. On the next pass they're dead.

Sure the street sam could have taken the guard out in five other ways, some faster and more effective, but the above scenario is hardly one that's just "meh, he's just got a sword". Once you're in melee with a street sam, because of the melee penalties and their bonuses when they first close with you, you don't have much chance of surviving. And full defense is pretty useless against a street sam, because they have more passes than you, so they can wait you out.

I misread or misremembered .. about using a melee weapon vs a firearm in melee .. different discussion sorry

as for the remainder, if guard gets +2 for point blank it's not specified in the book at what "reach" or situation you do or do not get the bonus.
I would say it only applies to unaware or characters unwilling or unable to provide defense (Ran out of dice pool or are subdued)
but that's my own opinion .. not RAW.

but ... where's Knockdown rules ? cause that is EXACTLY what i need to look up!

if that is in core rules in melee then I need to be using it .. Alot !