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Kiirnodel
post Mar 19 2013, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 19 2013, 11:41 AM) *
I misread or misremembered .. about using a melee weapon vs a firearm in melee .. different discussion sorry

as for the remainder, if guard gets +2 for point blank it's not specified in the book at what "reach" or situation you do or do not get the bonus.
I would say it only applies to unaware or characters unwilling or unable to provide defense (Ran out of dice pool or are subdued)
but that's my own opinion .. not RAW.

but ... where's Knockdown rules ? cause that is EXACTLY what i need to look up!

if that is in core rules in melee then I need to be using it .. Alot !


Not sure what you're talking about guard gets +2 for point blank. If you mean the +2 bonus that ranged attackers get for attacking targets within 1 meter, it is pretty explicit. But yes, what melee reach lets you stay out of that meter range isn't defined. We went over that in the other thread, and it's based on situation. For instance, a person wielding a longspear might be able to keep someone further away than someone with a whip (both reach 2). And shorter weapons require you to get in closer, giving that bonus because you have to be within a meter of them to be able to hit. If it only applied to those unable to defend, then the -3 for engaged in melee wouldn't apply (and wouldn't be specifically referenced).

Now for Knockdown... it is on page 161 of the SR4A, Other Factors in Combat section. It is also where it talks about making a Subduing attack, which is also something only melee can do.

Attacking to Knock down doesn't deal any damage, if your Strength + net hits on the attack exceeds the opponent's Body, then you successfully knock them down. You can choose to go down with them, but if you glitch you fall no matter what (worse with a crit glitch, you fall, they don't). Based on the wording, you might be able to aoid falling if you glitch but fail to successfully knock them over. But expect something else bad to happen.
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Mach_Ten
post Mar 19 2013, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ Mar 19 2013, 04:19 PM) *
Not sure what you're talking about guard gets +2 for point blank. If you mean the +2 bonus that ranged attackers get for attacking targets within 1 meter, it is pretty explicit.


no, it's horribly implicit. the text says within 1m but doesn't include or exclude any situational text (i.e. defender unaware etc.)
and reach doesn't include any clarification if you are within 1M when fighting

as a human, I hold a sword for example about 15 -20cm from my body and the blade is about what ? 70 -90 CM .. and it's not permanently against my opponents chest, it is at striking distance

there's no way I am ever within 1M of my enemy unless the point is somewhere tickling his kidneys !! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ Mar 19 2013, 04:19 PM) *
giving that bonus because you have to be within a meter of them to be able to hit. If it only applied to those unable to defend, then the -3 for engaged in melee wouldn't apply (and wouldn't be specifically referenced).

hang on, the -3 for being in melee does NOT mention any range .. it just says engaged in melee not within 1M ...

anyway I digress, yes the +2 point blank in all it's ridiculousness.
QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ Mar 19 2013, 04:19 PM) *
Now for Knockdown... it is on page 161 of the SR4A, Other Factors in Combat section. It is also where it talks about making a Subduing attack, which is also something only melee can do.

Attacking to Knock down doesn't deal any damage, if your Strength + net hits on the attack exceeds the opponent's Body, then you successfully knock them down. You can choose to go down with them, but if you glitch you fall no matter what (worse with a crit glitch, you fall, they don't). Based on the wording, you might be able to aoid falling if you glitch but fail to successfully knock them over. But expect something else bad to happen.


does that specicy unarmed Melee ? or include armed .. and if so, has Thorya missed that an attack to knock down is a specific action that Does NO damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

which would be crappy as I had gotten my hopes up there of some sort of bonus for wielding a bladed weapon
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bannockburn
post Mar 19 2013, 04:37 PM
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It's only unarmed melee, unfortunately, just as subdual combat is.
Yeah, weapons are very meh.

But at least they look cool!
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thorya
post Mar 19 2013, 04:43 PM
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So there are two ways to knock someone down, both are on 161.

First, any time a character takes damage, there is a chance that they fall down. If a character takes damage equal to or above their body they are knocked down. No roll to resist at all. In ranged combat this is actually a pain since people should be falling over all the time and most people ignore it, because if a defender is prone for a ranged attack it only matters within 5 meters. But for melee it makes a huge difference, because it adds to the attack (pg 157 +3 for opponent prone) and it subtracts from the defense (pg 159, -2 for defending while prone).

The second is just to knock them down and that is what Kiirnodel is referring to. It is a separate action that is explicitly to knockdown.




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Mach_Ten
post Mar 19 2013, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 19 2013, 04:43 PM) *
So there are two ways to knock someone down, both are on 161.

First, any time a character takes damage, there is a chance that they fall down. If a character takes damage equal to or above their body they are knocked down. No roll to resist at all. In ranged combat this is actually a pain since people should be falling over all the time and most people ignore it, because if a defender is prone for a ranged attack it only matters within 5 meters. But for melee it makes a huge difference, because it adds to the attack (pg 157 +3 for opponent prone) and it subtracts from the defense (pg 159, -2 for defending while prone).

The second is just to knock them down and that is what Kiirnodel is referring to. It is a separate action that is explicitly to knockdown.


BOOM!

that right there is pure genius ! +1 karma to infinity, to Thorya . for reinstating my faith in the SR universe.

thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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bannockburn
post Mar 19 2013, 04:59 PM
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Hu? You weren't aware of automatic knockdown?

To add to this: It isn't only when you take damage that's equal or higher than your Bod stat (no matter if S or P, btw), it's also automatic if you take 10 boxes of damage, so no cop out for trolls with Bod 11 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Mach_Ten
post Mar 19 2013, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 19 2013, 04:59 PM) *
Hu? You weren't aware of automatic knockdown?


newp, only started playing SR4 when I joined here a few weeks back and joined in some PbP's ... trying to catchup as rapidly as possible, so I'm not a perma-n00b

so .. be aware I'll be bothering y'all for more rules advice .... well ... ALL the time ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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bannockburn
post Mar 19 2013, 05:15 PM
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It's not so fun on the flipside, either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Getting up in that situation requires a not quite that easy test, too.
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 19 2013, 05:17 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 19 2013, 05:37 PM) *
It's only unarmed melee, unfortunately, just as subdual combat is.
Yeah, weapons are very meh.
That is plain wrong. The only two things you cannot do with armed subdual is improving your grip and defending against a subdual technique. There is no rule against initiating the grapple with an armed melee attack roll and later improving it with unarmed combat, nor are there rules against using unarmed combat when one or more hands are equipped with weapons.

Attacking to knockdown has no restriction for weapons whatsoever.

@Automatic Knockdown: Just to clarify, for an automatic knockdown you need to mark BOD or more boxes (or 10 boxes) on the opponent's condition monitor. Just inflicting DV 10 is not always enough. A troll with BOD 11 is highly unlikely to leave 10 boxes after soak.
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bannockburn
post Mar 19 2013, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Mar 19 2013, 06:17 PM) *
That is plain wrong. The only two things you cannot do with armed subdual is improving your grip and defending against a subdual technique. There is no rule against initiating the grapple with an armed melee attack roll and later improving it with unarmed combat, nor are there rules against using unarmed combat when one or more hands are equipped with weapons.

You're right, sorry. I hadn't bothered to look it up, and I remembered the test as Unarmed Combat. Actually it's 'melee attack as normal'

QUOTE
@Automatic Knockdown: Just to clarify, for an automatic knockdown you need to mark BOD or more boxes (or 10 boxes )on the opponent's condition monitor. Just inflickting DV 10 is not necessarily enough. A troll with BOD 11 is highly unlikely to leave 10 boxes after soak.

Yes, the damage TAKEN must be equal or higher or 10. Not the damage before the soaking roll.
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Kiirnodel
post Mar 19 2013, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 19 2013, 12:34 PM) *
no, it's horribly implicit. the text says within 1m but doesn't include or exclude any situational text (i.e. defender unaware etc.)
and reach doesn't include any clarification if you are within 1M when fighting

Right, it's reach that is vague, not point blank. It's a flat +2 if target is within 1 meter. It's kind of hard to miss... There aren't any situational modifiers because those are other modifiers. If the target is aware and abe to fight back, that is why it mentions "Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier." Otherwise it's a one sentence statement, not much to confuse. Like I said, explicit.

QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 19 2013, 12:34 PM) *
as a human, I hold a sword for example about 15 -20cm from my body and the blade is about what ? 70 -90 CM .. and it's not permanently against my opponents chest, it is at striking distance

Not sure what kind of sword you're using, most katanas have a blade 60-75 cm in length, you might be thinking with the handle. Add those numbers up and more than a meter away and you're swinging at air.

QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 19 2013, 12:34 PM) *
there's no way I am ever within 1M of my enemy unless the point is somewhere tickling his kidneys !! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

hang on, the -3 for being in melee does NOT mention any range .. it just says engaged in melee not within 1M ...

anyway I digress, yes the +2 point blank in all it's ridiculousness.

This was mentioned in the previous thread, you don't hold or fight with a katana pointed straight away from you, you strike with the blade, not the point. And yes, the goal would be for the outstretched katan to pass completely through your target (point past his kidneys).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and both of my other points were ninja'd above...

QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Mar 19 2013, 12:34 PM) *
does that specicy unarmed Melee ? or include armed .. and if so, has Thorya missed that an attack to knock down is a specific action that Does NO damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

which would be crappy as I had gotten my hopes up there of some sort of bonus for wielding a bladed weapon
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 19 2013, 12:37 PM) *
It's only unarmed melee, unfortunately, just as subdual combat is.
Yeah, weapons are very meh.

But at least they look cool!


Far as I can tell, the knockdown attack (melee only) does not specify a weapon. My guess you could use a blade to knock down an opponent by using the flat (or something) so you can apply more kinetic force. Or hook their foot or something, it's a vague maneuver, not a set form of attack.

Subduing however doesn't mention Unarmed Combat until the third paragraph when it specifies how a defender tries to escape. Before that it only says "resolve melee combat normally". At the end of the second paragraph it does say that success means that you start grappling, which would imply Unarmed Combat, but it is kind of vague. I could see arguments that you can start a subdue (grapple) using a weapon and then switch to Unarmed Combat to get a better grip once you've got hold. Think using a staff or club to get a choke hold on somebody...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 19 2013, 12:59 PM) *
Hu? You weren't aware of automatic knockdown?

To add to this: It isn't only when you take damage that's equal or higher than your Bod stat (no matter if S or P, btw), it's also automatic if you take 10 boxes of damage, so no cop out for trolls with Bod 11 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Also remember, it is damage boxes taken, so, after you resist. If you manage to resist the damage it also helps you stay up.
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Mach_Ten
post Mar 19 2013, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ Mar 19 2013, 05:22 PM) *
snip


cheers Kiirnodel, still learning (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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NiL_FisK_Urd
post Mar 19 2013, 05:40 PM
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A simple houserule would be to allow to defend against a ranged attack with REA+Skill (like defending against melee) if the attacker is in melee with the defender (if i can deflect a monowhip attack with my hand, i should be able to deflect a hand with a pistol too)
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Draco18s
post Mar 19 2013, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 19 2013, 11:59 AM) *
To add to this: It isn't only when you take damage that's equal or higher than your Bod stat (no matter if S or P, btw), it's also automatic if you take 10 boxes of damage, so no cop out for trolls with Bod 11 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Or dragons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Knocking down a dragon is simply an "explosion"* type spell. At Force 5 or 6, it becomes neigh impossible to not be knocked down. At Force 10, it's automatic, even if you resist the spell completely.

*I think it's the explosion type. There's one that "force of the spell adds to boxes taken for knockdown tests."
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bannockburn
post Mar 19 2013, 06:00 PM
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What you mean is the Blast type effect (Street Magic p. 165) and it says 'add the Force to the damage inflicted when comparing to the defender's Body'.
As you only compare damage inflicted to body when there is actual damage inflicted, it still requires the dragon to take damage. So no, no free knockdown unless you damage him.
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Kiirnodel
post Mar 19 2013, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Mar 19 2013, 01:55 PM) *
Or dragons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Knocking down a dragon is simply an "explosion"* type spell. At Force 5 or 6, it becomes neigh impossible to not be knocked down. At Force 10, it's automatic, even if you resist the spell completely.

*I think it's the explosion type. There's one that "force of the spell adds to boxes taken for knockdown tests."


Blast Element, yes. It has the clause: "add the Force to the damage inflicted when comparing to the defender’s Body". One could argue that it only applies to "when comparing to the defender's Body" and not the automatic at 10 boxes part, but without good reason I see no reason why a Force 10 Blast spell wouldn't knock somebody down, no matter what.

EDIT: ninja by bannockburn again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Draco18s
post Mar 19 2013, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Kiirnodel @ Mar 19 2013, 01:09 PM) *
but without good reason I see no reason why a Force 10 Blast spell wouldn't knock somebody down, no matter what.


Pre'much.

I could go either way, but my preferred direction is "that way" towards where such shenanigans don't happen (i.e. I'm fine with elemental variations, some of them though are just retarded).
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Falconer
post Mar 19 2013, 06:17 PM
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While I agree making melee a 'simple' action is a bit broke and smacks of a DnD'ism... (melee uber alles!). Sorry there's a reason bayonets are rarely used on the battlefield....


I do think there's a good case to be made for making melee into a simple action akin to a long burst... long bursts... you can only make one per initiative pass even though it is a simple action.

That would allow the 'buckaroo' swashbuckler with the sword and pistol... swings over the deck... pops off a shot into one pud... then casually stabs another....

It would also allow for things like readying a melee weapon and attacking with it in the same turn without things like martial powers.
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bannockburn
post Mar 19 2013, 06:21 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 19 2013, 07:17 PM) *
I do think there's a good case to be made for making melee into a simple action akin to a long burst... long bursts... you can only make one per initiative pass even though it is a simple action.

That would allow the 'buckaroo' swashbuckler with the sword and pistol... swings over the deck... pops off a shot into one pud... then casually stabs another....

It would also allow for things like readying a melee weapon and attacking with it in the same turn without things like martial powers.

I like this suggestion, sounds very cinematic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Mar 19 2013, 06:29 PM
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on the other hand it opens up the way to first shooting somebody then stabbing them, or the other way around..
no clue on the math, but that also has the potential to be a game breaker.
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bannockburn
post Mar 19 2013, 06:30 PM
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A stylish game breaker, at least! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Stahlseele
post Mar 19 2013, 06:36 PM
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point.
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Falconer
post Mar 19 2013, 06:54 PM
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Stahl...
As opposed to just shooting the guy twice like you do now?!

I hardly find that any more game breaking at that point.


The biggest problem with that one though... is the multi-attack split dice pool problem. If I'm attacking multiple's or multi-attacking with melee weapons probably best to keep it a complex action and split the pools.

As the real problem with the whole idea is if you allowed a second attack with an off-hand as an extra simple action... especially for the unarmed types this is a real terror. left cross... right cross... knock-out...
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Dakka Dakka
post Mar 19 2013, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Mar 19 2013, 06:40 PM) *
A simple houserule would be to allow to defend against a ranged attack with REA+Skill (like defending against melee) if the attacker is in melee with the defender (if i can deflect a monowhip attack with my hand, i should be able to deflect a hand with a pistol too)
If you are unarmed and the opponent has a gun, the first thing to do should be to get the gun, or at least remove it from him. So go first (possibly with Edge) and disarm make a called shot to remove the firearm from his grasp. The disarm maneuver from Arsenal unfortunately does not work against an attack with a ranged weapon.

As has been pointed out before, you are not deflecting the monowhip with your hand, you are moving in such a way that the monowhip does less or no damage to you. That could be blocking the arm and ducking under the whip and all sort of other movements. It most likely will not be positioning your hand in the trajectory of the whip (unless it's a critical glitch)

@Falconer: You cannot make more than one attack per Action phase against a single opponent with Unarmed combat unless you use one of the melee weapons that use the Unarmed Combat skill.
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Umidori
post Mar 19 2013, 07:23 PM
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The one thing that really bugs me about this argument is that people keep getting the real-world comparison of lethality and damage of melee weapons versus firearms wrong.

Melee weapons are in fact BRUTAL. I'd much rather be shot twice than take a katana to the chest or a hammer to the head, particularly if the person wielding the weapon is 2.75m tall and weighs 225kg. The amount of force behind even just a punch is simply staggering compared to the amount of force possessed by most bullets. Add in the mechanical advantage of a weapon acting as a lever, as well as the focusing of the energy into the edge or point of a blade, or into the head of blunt weapon, and you've got a recipe for pain.

Why are bullets more effective in modern warfare? Because of tactics and logistics. When you can deliver smaller packets of force to a target from a greater range and at a greater rate, it doesn't matter so much that each individual "attack" is weak - you overwhelm with numbers and with speed. But when it comes to a direct comparison of power, blow for blow? Melee wins every time.

This is already reflected in the mechanics of SR. If you're 50m away from a foe, he can shoot you numerous times before you ever get close enough to make an attack. But if you somehow manage to close the distance and start trading blows? Every one of your melee strikes should be FAR more damaging than any single bullet.

I will readily concede that bullets do have one other benefit - they pierce. Against unarmored foes, bullets are nasty because they can strike deeply and damage internal organs. Indeed, most casualties of firearms die from organ failure of one form or another. But once armor enters into the equation, bullets lose a lot of their lethality. They still hurt, but you're gonna end up with cracked ribs and deep tissue bruises, not perforated lungs and a shredded heart.

In my view, the best way to model this in SR would be to increase the base damage values of melee weapons, but at the same time reduce their armor penetration. The DV should be roughly representative of the amount of force a blow is able to inflict, while the AP should be representative of how easily the blow penetrates. Ballistic weapons should inflict low damage with high penetration. Blunt weapons should inflict high damage with low penetration. And bladed weapons should fall somewhere inbetween, with a sliding scale between slashing weapons and piercing weapons.

~Umi
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