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> /dev/grrl's development..., Because we don't want to thread-steal from a publication announcem
Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 26 2013, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Mar 26 2013, 05:24 PM) *
Last I checked shock weaponry and injection darts are both more discreet and less lethal then full-metal jackets.


Last I checked they were alot less effective when the other side is USING heavy weaponry, and wearing armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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hermit
post Mar 26 2013, 09:55 PM
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Again, I gotta ask what kinda shadowruns you guys play. What are all those dozens and dozens of guns for? The books just on guns.

For me: The kind where planning and care is a better choice over roaring guns.

As for the books: pretty much nothing, if you ask me, save as porn books for gun nuts maybe. I mean, some guns there are okay, but ... nothing to fawn about really. Most are actually rather crappy.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 26 2013, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 26 2013, 05:55 PM) *
For me: The kind where planning and care is a better choice over roaring guns.

As for the books: pretty much nothing, if you ask me, save as porn books for gun nuts maybe.


And again, I point out, that 'going in guns blazing' is very seldom the plan. (( Well Infrequently is that the plan. lol))

Still, what the plan 'starts off as', seldom ends up matching what actually happens. The old addage "No plan survives contact" is pretty true. All our groups plan and research, take care as best as they can. They still bring the guns for when something goes wrong. As it so often does. (( As that's part of the game)).

Do groups sometimes get in and out clean? SURE!! Does careful planning reduce the usage of guns and death? One can surely hope.

Still.... maybe it's just the groups I play with, but sooner or later the guns come out. And people die. It's pretty standard. Those that don't have the stomach for it, aren't good runners. Doesn't make you a psycho, but it's part of the job. These people (Shadowrunners) Aren't even military protecting their country or families from hostiles. They willingly choose the Shadowrunning life. Part of that life is "Corps or the Cops are going to try and inprision you at the very best. Kill you being the norm. Sometimes you have to shoot your way out. Regretable? Yes. Something you do your best not to have to do? Yes. Something that happens on a routine basis? Yes.

I've never had a group playing shadowrun where noone brought guns on their runs. Where everything goes exactly as planned and the runs are always perfect and you always get in and out clean and noone gets hurt. Those sorts of runs are few and far between and you tend to remember them because... of how few and far between they are, where everything goes right and there's no hostile contact at any pont along the way. "Wow!! Darius didn't shoot or head butt anyone on that run!" "I know! I was standing around with nothing to do. it was weird!" "Yeah we didn't even have to steal get away vehicles when ours was shot up!!"

Do runs like that happen? Yep. Maybe our GM's are stricter, or more inventive or something, but we very seldom get in, out, with what ever we're after, and never in the entire run does something not happen where the stuff hits the fan. My 'good guys' often have to kill. Even when it's unpleasent. They usually don't like it. (( I've played some 'bad guys' before too)) But it's part of the job. If you don't ever wanna have to hurt or kill someone, you need to --seriously-- reconsider being a shadowrunner.


A small aside: I actually agree on the 'gun porn'. I don't need that many guns myself. And I'm a gun guy IRL. Most of my people end up picking the same guns, because I like that gun in the game. I have the gun books, of course, but I don't 'want more guns'. Nor do I think we 'need' as many as we have. My point was that in the setting and from the writers and company, there's BUNCHES of guns out there and they are used.
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hermit
post Mar 26 2013, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE
Do runs like that happen? Yep. Maybe our GM's are stricter, or more inventive or something, but we very seldom get in, out, with what ever we're after, and never in the entire run does something not happen where the stuff hits the fan.

"Shit hits the fan" isn't automatically a situation best solved with gunfire. In fact, in my group that tends to be punished as a solution more often than not.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 26 2013, 10:27 PM
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A better question to me would be... why would she ever be in the position to need to kill someone herself? Just ask Uncle Kane instead...
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 26 2013, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 26 2013, 06:27 PM) *
A better question to me would be... why would she ever be in the position to need to kill someone herself? Just ask Uncle Kane instead...


lol Maybe Uncle Kane is off playing with the FMC again or being a Pirate?

Dev is still "The Decker" ( Yeah yeah hacker, whatever. It's Shadowrunners. They're Deckers to me. I'm with Bull). I see her soon to be going on Runs with teams and what not. Again I just don't see how MUCH/OFTEN that tutorage from Kane is taking place. Here and there, sure but not like long stretches.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 26 2013, 10:38 PM
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Given the numerous charges most deckers face anyhow, I would think tacking murder on top of it wouldn't help them any. Even the Jackpointers tend to murder-shame certain runners who have... mutable morals. Personally, I just don't see it likely to happen outside of cybercombat with a techno. <edit> and in self defence at that.
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Angelone
post Mar 26 2013, 10:40 PM
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How do we know she hasn't killed anyone already? I doubt Kane is a shoot at cans or bottle type teacher.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 26 2013, 10:44 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 26 2013, 06:38 PM) *
Given the numerous charges most deckers face anyhow, I would think tacking murder on top of it wouldn't help them any. Even the Jackpointers tend to murder-shame certain runners who have... mutable morals. Personally, I just don't see it likely to happen outside of cybercombat with a techno. <edit> and in self defence at that.


It's not that hard to conceptualize. "You're on a run, with your team. Corp-sec opens fire. options are "Give up and get killed, or go to corp jail for life" or "Shoot your way out." What do you do?"

Jackpointers tend to look down on flat out assassins. But people that end up trading bullets with corps, or are full out Mercenaries aren't looked down upon. Shooting/killing cops or Corps trying to stop you on a run is par for the course.

You plan your runs to --not-- have to use that option, but all those guns aren't just to brag about online. They're used in the game for the purpose they're built for. Killing people.

I doubt Dev would just go full assassin. She's not Nat Portman in the Professional. But if she's on a run and they're taking fire and bullets are thick in the air, yeah. I think she'll return fire. I think she'll shoot "Like uncle kane taught her too". I don't see her as just laying on the floor with her hands stretched out infront of her and waiting for cuffs.

I really hope she wouldn't.
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Pepsi Jedi
post Mar 26 2013, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (Angelone @ Mar 26 2013, 06:40 PM) *
How do we know she hasn't killed anyone already? I doubt Kane is a shoot at cans or bottle type teacher.


While you have a point. 1) I don't see her training on "PEOPLE"... maybe seaguls off a ship (( Which is still not cool!)) but shooting people to train is a bit out there. and 2) I think if she HAD taken a life via violence (Not the Matrix) We'd have heard about it, or seen some indication. I think she or others would have mentioned it in some fashion. "I'm a kid but even I've killed a guy" or "People look down on Dev but she's killed on runs. She's not a joke" type thing somewhere.
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RHat
post Mar 27 2013, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 26 2013, 09:14 AM) *
They apparently didn't want to go with a "Spec Ops: The Line" version of Lara who suffers from crippling PTSD.


PTSD takes time after the event to actually occur - so, she'll probably suffer from it, but it just hasn't happened yet.

As an aside, the way it's handled in the new game is, in my opinion, very well done. She freaks out about it, but picks up and keeps going because she has no other choice.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 27 2013, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 26 2013, 03:48 PM) *
Last I checked they were alot less effective when the other side is USING heavy weaponry, and wearing armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I had a character the relied upon Narcojet Capsule Rounds. Unfortunately, even with the Less-than-Lethal option, he still killed people with it. On Many more than one occasion. Sadly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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ShadowJackal
post Mar 27 2013, 04:20 PM
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It's rather pathetic that this thread inevidably questions her ability to emotionally handle a first kill when this question would have never been brought to light for a male character.
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Patrick Goodman
post Mar 27 2013, 04:35 PM
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Funny you should say that, since I'm working on a piece dealing with a male character's first kill, and how he handles it. Granted, his situation is exacerbated by several factors, but the question does come up occasionally. I'm not sure whether or not to resent the implications you're making, but it's been a rotten morning so I'll shrug it off.
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Lionhearted
post Mar 27 2013, 04:46 PM
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Not to much to do with her gender as her age, background and general attitude...
To me, she's a bratty kid playing with fire, it's all fun and games neh?
Then again I haven't had the chance to see this supposed growth she've been having these last few books.
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ShadowJackal
post Mar 27 2013, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Mar 27 2013, 04:35 PM) *
Funny you should say that, since I'm working on a piece dealing with a male character's first kill, and how he handles it. Granted, his situation is exacerbated by several factors, but the question does come up occasionally. I'm not sure whether or not to resent the implications you're making, but it's been a rotten morning so I'll shrug it off.

It wasn't a direct response to you so I'm not sure why you'd resent it. Frankly I find it refreshing that you're taking a look at the "softer" side of the male psyche rather than assuming that due to genitalia a male is more likely to be able to "handle" a situation.

I am just exhausted of the attitude both here, in Shadowrun and gaming in general that women are somehow more fragile creatures than their male counterparts. I realize that women are less populous in many circles of the gaming hobby but it doesn't mean that archaic patriachal ideas and ideals of women should be accepted.

On topic, there are not nearly enough females in Shadowrun that are in any way "Bad Ass" which makes me sad. I'm mildly interested in Dev's storyline but personally I find her to be trite. What CGL could really use is a female writer or two to introduce some strong female characters into current canon. That's a personal peeve of mine though.
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ChromeZephyr
post Mar 27 2013, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowJackal @ Mar 27 2013, 09:20 AM) *
It's rather pathetic that this thread inevidably questions her ability to emotionally handle a first kill when this question would have never been brought to light for a male character.


I disagree, to me her being female has zero bearing on the aftermath of the first kill. I was thinking more about her age and upbringing (sheltered corp kid vs. a Barrens rat).
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bannockburn
post Mar 27 2013, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowJackal @ Mar 27 2013, 05:49 PM) *
On topic, there are not nearly enough females in Shadowrun that are in any way "Bad Ass" which makes me sad. I'm mildly interested in Dev's storyline but personally I find her to be trite. What CGL could really use is a female writer or two to introduce some strong female characters into current canon. That's a personal peeve of mine though.

Striper (*shudder*), Black Mamba, Sally Tsung, Hard Exit, Hestaby, NetCat ... I could go on if I wanted to actually open a book instead of remembering off the top of my head.
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ChromeZephyr
post Mar 27 2013, 04:57 PM
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Pistons, who was Elissa Carey's character. Though she doesn't write for CGL anymore.
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X-Kalibur
post Mar 27 2013, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 27 2013, 09:52 AM) *
Striper (*shudder*), Black Mamba, Sally Tsung, Hard Exit, Hestaby, NetCat ... I could go on if I wanted to actually open a book instead of remembering off the top of my head.


Picador.
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ShadowJackal
post Mar 27 2013, 04:57 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Mar 27 2013, 04:52 PM) *
Striper (*shudder*), Black Mamba, Sally Tsung, Hard Exit, Hestaby, NetCat ... I could go on if I wanted to actually open a book instead of remembering off the top of my head.

I will give you NetCat. I like NetCat a lot.

Hestaby? I could write a novel on how Hestaby being exiled is basically a distillation of everything wrong with female characters in role playing games but I've been trying to restrict myself from that.

Oh and nobody even think about bringing up Nadja. Any character known for her nipples by fans is another example of what is WRONG with the game.
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ShadowJackal
post Mar 27 2013, 04:57 PM
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Whoops. Double post!
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Patrick Goodman
post Mar 27 2013, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowJackal @ Mar 27 2013, 11:49 AM) *
It wasn't a direct response to you so I'm not sure why you'd resent it.

Like I said, rotten morning, so my skin's probably more tender than it needs to be.
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ChromeZephyr
post Mar 27 2013, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowJackal @ Mar 27 2013, 10:57 AM) *
Any character known for her nipples by fans is another example of what is WRONG with the game.


Okay, I must have missed something while I was walkabout for most of 4th. What caused this?
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bannockburn
post Mar 27 2013, 05:01 PM
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The point was: There have been tons of strong female character in SR. There have also been female authors. There may be an oversight, due to percentages but there is no agenda to put women in their place.
You specified badass.
Badass can be standing up to your loremaster.
Badass can be wtfmurdering everyone who's in your way.
Badass can be being a working mother.
Badass can ALSO be working in an executive role and as vice president. The nipples thing is embarassing, though, but at least in my environment it's people laughing at bad writing rather than an otherwise very strong character.
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