That's very likely.

Didn't Aztech purge the Gestalt's remains and have them flee to MCT's Unit 13?

Also, Aztech seems to become Neo-Thera more and more. Love of stepped pyramids, massive blood magic, bizarre but victorious military operations ...

Blood magic is supposed be dark and evil and very, very bad. unfortunately SR4 kinda watered all magic down into a soupy, bland, generic "unified" mess.

One man's mess is another's utopia. *shrug*

Bull, the Toaster doesn't have a setting as dark as you want things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Bah. Bad guys are supposed to be BAD. You need dark to contrast the light. (And in between, get plenty of grey). Blood Magic, Insect Spirits, and Toxic Magic are all areas that are supposed to be VERY powerful, but very BAD.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa now?

...

There's light in Shadowrun?

Yeah, this has been eating at me for ages. Blood Magic is bad enough that Dunky put out a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1 million bounty on blood mages openly in his will, and noone said shit. Same with toxic shamans.

Some shit is inherently bloody bad, and if anything some of the newer (in terms of release date) magical traditions should have been added to that list.

Blood Magic thins the veil between the physical plane and the plane where things lurk that will kill everyone. It is not, by itself, evil, but it is extremely selfish and short term gain to use it. Carefully used, it is not much more of a problem than regular magic though (only thread magic is truly safe). And some bads have already crossed over - Shedim, Imps, and Wraiths - and at least one came as a direct consequence of one dragon's selfishness and arrogance.

Toxic magic is changing the plane we live in into something we cannot live in. Same problem, but the destructive potential is more immediate.

Insect spirits, being invaders, are the plainest threats of all.

YMMV. A lot. This is exactly the reason why Harlequin and Dawn of the Artifacts completely fell flat with the groups I played them. Nobody knows. The level of powers openly displayed by NPC makes it obvious that the PC cannot achieve anything significant. They're not playing a part, they're spectators. The players cannot understand the reason why they're there, since the gamemaster and the author don't know either (to be fair, Harlequin does actually give a reason for runner to be involved ; it's just that "It's a cultural thing that us immortal elves do." equally fell flat as an explanation).

This is like having the PC flying a WW2 aircraft to bomb a single factory in Hiroshima at 0730 on August 6th, 1945, and then see another aircraft dropping a bomb that raze down the entire city.

There was an intent during the third edition to downplay blood magic at Aztechnology. In Corporate Download, only a small number of blood mages were supposed to remain within the corporation, most of them hiding from the management purge after Oscuro's demise. There still was a mysterious player with a hidden agenda, only not relying any longer on the use of blood magic to advance his plan. I don't remember anything about MCT Unit 13, but in Loose Alliances, the head of the Apep Consortium was a former Aztechnology blood mage that departed.

Of course, few people pay attention to details (especially those who doesn't fit their views), and Aztechnology was too good as an enemy, so gamemasters kept having Azzie blood mages around. Corporate Guide officially brought back the blood mages. There an elite military unit of blood mages in War! and other things that means the blood mages status within the corporation has been restored.

In my experience, Harlequin II is received much worse, and that's despite the players actually having a purpose there - to kick Harle's ass into action. However, running around with an all-powerful NPC always winking at them made most players feel ... unnecessary. Which is about the worst thing a GM can do. And which is what all of the chapter is leading up to, Pepsi.


How many players would rejoice at having done -10 HP damage on an enemy and then stood by to watch a vastly more powerful NPC finish the battle in auto mode?


Yeah, you're right. I tried to foget that crap from War!. Sometimes, the authors don't spend much attention on the details either, though the blood magic/azzie connection seems to be popular demand also.

I think you're missing the point of 'Being a part of said event' and 'being the hero of the world and the biggest and baddest person in said event'. Your team isn't supposed to be the ones in a fist fight with Ghost walker, but you can be part of the event and help to influence the out come.

It's not that the events are broken, as much as how you're looking at YOUR PART in them. *shrugs* our groups don't save the world on a weekly basis. We're not the Avengers. Being part of the events makes it feel like you're in the world and a part of what's going down though. That's pretty big, in and of itself.



To be fair, it was the other way around. The enemy was whupped and tore up and almost dead, but the killing blow was handed to metahumanity. So you very well COULD have been the one that put that final HP damage on the great dragon.

The difference between 'handed to' and 'taken by' is the difference between players and spectators.

And I reiterate. Being part of something doesn't invalidate it. You can be a part of the battle with out being the biggest baddest guy on the field or 'saving the day'. Shadowrunners aren't meant to be super heroes. If you want to be the one that stands up to Loki on top of Stark Tower, you need to be an avenger. If you want to pull shadowruns and be parts of things above your total control. That's Shadowrun.

I mean the stereotypical shadowrun is a group of runners, hired by a Mr Johnson, to make a run against a corp asset, being used as deniable assets. You don't run the Megacorps. You often are mislead about what your mission is actually for and if you're caught, those that hired you never heard of you. The entire premise of the game is that you're not on top of the world, but towards the bottom swimming with sharks that could gobble you up at the drop of a hat.

Most every chapter in this book has options for shadowruns in and around the events happening. Stuff like, the Dodger chapter, not so much but those aren't thick.

It's looking like many people are saying "I dont' get to kick Sirrurg out of the sky and rip out his spine.. so there's nothing for me to do!" or "I don't get to single handedly put an end to the war in Bogata, so there's nothing for me to do! or "I can't grab Ghostwalker by the tail and ride him like a surf board so I'm just watching!" Would you be IN the fight with Ghostwalker and Harle? Not if you're smart. Could you be doing things all through Denver as the build up is happening? Hunting down leads, trying to stop some of the killing. Trying to spring the dragon that was locked up. (Rumor has it that this will actually be a mission in the next season?) Such as that. Do you get to stop the Dimi-gods? no. But you can affect the story as it's told and --be a part of the story- as it's told. Your runners won't say "I was the one that killed Ghost walker last year in his fight with Harle" but they could say "our team put a stop to one of Puck's plans to kill a second jet liner full of passengers, during the rampage" or "We were the ones that smuggled Frosty into the city and kept her alive long enough to get to Harle to put a stop to the battle."

There's plenty to do, and be involved in these events with out single handedly saving the world or ruling the event. That sort of stuff is in different games.

You realise this makes players extras in this? The people who also were there? Which is decidedly NOT what this game is all about? Much like a novel about a guy who also was present at the battle of Helm's Deep (but didn't really do much besides mash some orks) would be boring, a game where players can watch in awe as history happens is ... a bad game.


It can be handled better than the authors of the Game Info to the crap chapters of Storm Front want it. You can do intelligence missions where something crucial is discovered, you can do before- or after-battle stuff ... the key is that in your story, the players are the central element and not some all-pwerful scripted storyline NPC or a battle where players can watch the GM rolling insane numbers of dice against himself.


No. It's people saying "The only way to use this as a run hook is to have my players either watch NPCs duking it out ot having them kick Sirrirg out of the sky and rip out his spine. What a load of shite."

To clear up things, by "Harlequin II", hermit was rather referring I think to the Harlequin's Back adventure (I guess you could label the story arc on Harlequin feud with Ghostwalker as "Harlequin III," instead of what was proposed at some point as Harlequin's Gambit and never was carried out). But we were originally discussing this in regards to Storm Front chapter "Fall of Dragon."

I can't speak for the other, but I never meant PC should take down a dragon. I said they should "achieve something significant" and "play a part." The musical metaphor of playing a part, and not just being a part, has a sense: if you fail, it should be noticed. If the PC are dead when they should deliver the coup de grâce to Alamais, nobody will notice because they are dozens of other mercenaries around at that point. It'd be somewhat telling if the only significant thing that could be achieved in this story was to win a fistfight with a dragon. We both agree that Shadowrun PC shouldn't do such thing.

You consider this means my expectation of significant achievement cannot be fulfilled. I consider this only means "Fall of a dragon" is not a good story.

If it actually gave a reason for Lofwyr to hire an army of mercenaries and shadowrunners, like securing Alamais lair and preventing his drakes from dispersing and fleeing, while the great dragons open the way and engage the opposition, then yes, a single team of runners could achieve something significant, like preventing an Alamais follower from escaping with a precious artefact, finding data on the bank accounts Alamais used to fund terrorist organizations, or killing an Alamais drake they've been encountering all along an epic campaign. But if that's something I, as a GM, had to come up with, then the author only did half his job, and I have actually to undo a part of his work.

I disagree. Contributing to an event or being 'part' of an event doesn't make you the extras. The game you're playing in does revolve around you and your part of the world. You just don't get to be Superman or Thor. You can still make a difference and do your shadowruns, complete your jobs, help people, or not.

There are big things happening in the world and when you have things like Mega corps and Great Dragons, your PC's don't get to take them down left right and center. The focus is smaller, more personal. "Your contribution" to the big events. Not you dominating the big events.

I disagree with this too. The Authros of Storm Front wrote the chapters, they're there to inspire and give you the option of being a part of them, or hearing about them as the world is being prepped for SR 5. It's not ann "Adventure book" in that you're handed 20 adventures to run. It gives you the events and yes, you as a Gm look at the events and decide if you're going to have your groups be a part of them or not, and if so, what part. High or low. It leaves the option open. Yeah. GM's have to do a little work. To be honest I skimmed the 'stats' section in the back because most every chapter easily has 20 to 50 runs you could think up with out half trying or going for anything handed to you. Stuff you tailor to your group's nature, the characters, what kinda jobs they like and want to do vs 'here's an adventure, shoehorn your group into it'. Types.

I dont' think this book was supposed to have any stats in it. That's what a few of the authors have indicated if you read back through all the pages. Then when it turns out there were to be some stats and stuff it was added on quick at the end. It was supposed to be all story and fluff.

I'm aware MANY gamers don't like the fluff and love the crunch. 20 books of Guns and they'll want 21. I'm the other way around, so a book like this that's mostly fluff is great, as it gives so many options on what to do and how to use it. I get much more use out of books like this that show you things going on and laying out the world, than an adventure where you run it once and you're done.

Sorry if this is off-topic (I'll put it into a different thread if needed), but looking over the list that Bull's picked out, I've never gotten the impression that any of these three veins of magic have ever been "acceptable". Granted, I'm not really familiar with how they're described in editions before 4/4.5 (I've read the Aztlan book but that's about it), but to me it's always seemed to imply "blood magic, bugs and toxics are REALLY REALLY EVIL and the only reason we gave them mechanics was so GMs could stat them out without breaking our own magic system". Was there something I missed in a book somewhere? Not trying to disagree, Bull, I'm genuinely curious.

(edited because I was randomly skipping words mid-sentence)

The key word here is "contribution". That is, giving something that adds to a larger whole. In this case, the player wouldn't feel they're adding anything. There's no visible difference between what Lofwyr can do alone and what Lofwyr and one hundred mercenaries and shadowrunners can do. As you said it yourself, even those the GM who read the book don't know why Lofwyr hired them.

If that chapter mainly result in either leaving GM uninspired, or unwilling to have their group be a part of them, or choosing to design their own adventure and finally playing a shitty game with dissatisfied players, then it's difficult to call it a good product.

Shadowrun is role-playing game. The ultimate purpose of every book ought to be helping either the gamemaster and the players to play and have fun. It can be stories, background, plots, adventures or stats, to be directly used during a game or intervening at an earlier stage of either character or adventure design.
It happens that authors forget this part, and turn wannabe novelists instead, handing us useless trivia and accounts of their favorite NPC. That's not to say that every RPG short story or novel is inherently bad: they can provide great background and ambiance elements. But this rarely happens by random chance, and most often requires the author to know what he's doing. The debate could be opened on books that are a pleasant reading but ultimately useless for actual playing, but this is more theoretical question than anything else (I can't think of one examples at the time... SR books either were not so good to read, or have at least a minimal use for playing, besides the actual as novels who were sold as such).

Another Rainy Night would qualify, I think. It should have been sold as a novella, like Neat, instead as an adventure like 99 bottles.

I guess the main point where we disagree is at the inspirational part. You said 'If that chapter mainly results in either living the gm Uninspired or unwilling to have their group be a part of them"

I pointed out that most every chapter in the book could give loads of inspiration. Does it type out 50 adventures or shadowruns per chapter? No, but the information and shadowtalk is presented in such a way that countless shadowruns can be created having to do with the chapters at hand. There were a few that were clearly flavor but the rest were chock full of possibility.

I'm sorry if you can't find inspiration there.

I wouldn't call it a failure of the book or writers. I found plenty. Most every chapter gave me enough tto plan months of Shadowruns if I so chose.

Not really. But 4th edition really dialed back the "these are EVIL BAD NASTY" factor of all of these, as far as the fluff and fiction goes. Look at the one comment about blood magic being "just a power source" earlier in the thread. And there was a strong push at one point by a segment of the fanbase and a couple of the authors to actually make some of this stuff playable by PCs, but fortunately that never happened. AI's, Vampries, Free Spirits, and the like also fell into this category, and never should have become PCs either, IMO.

I'm a firm believer that some toys should never leave the GMs toybox.

I'm not discussing here Storm Front in it entirety, but only the chapter titled "Fall of a Dragon" (as shown by the use of the word "chapter"). Then, I did not said that it was impossible to find inspiration in there, but pointing in that last part of the sentence that using it as a source of inspiration could lead to a bad game and dissatisfied players.

Not all inspirations are good. I've seen enthusiastic gamemasters clinging on an idea they saw and running a terrible game. I did it myself way too often when I was younger. I consider an author writing fluff has the same responsibility than an author writing rules or NPC stats. There are gamemasters and players outside who didn't master every subtlety of game balance, Earthdawn lore, or Interactive-Narrative Structures. It is also their job to help those people have good time with their friends.

If you choose to design your own adventure and play a shitty game... isn't that on you for your design? The writers can't do it all for ya man.
I'm --not-- saying that the book is perfect, but there's plenty you can do in the Fall of a Dragon chapter with out it being a shitty game. It's up to you to make it fun, like it would be with any shadowrun/game.