All of which might be fair complaints, but they have nothing at all to do with what CanRay's talking about (so I'm sorry if I sound defensive, but it seems really bizarre to me that his light-hearted comment, made to poke fun at himself, if anyone, is dredging up this kind of hostility).

His "character development" comment was about a thread right here on this very forum, which quite a few posters took part in. It's not some shadowy reference to secret material we all chortle about behind our sinister NDAs, or a smug joke being told at someone's expense. It was a reference to a thread from, like, five or six weeks ago right here on Dumpshock.

And the pdf version that's sold doesn't need bleeds and cutlines.

~sigh~ I must be speaking some uncomprehensible language again ... or did I mention CanRay's joke (or the thread in question) in particular? Did Samoth do so? No, we both expressed a more general feeling and mine was given as a direct answer to RHat's comment concerning the value of "your" input to him.

Did CanRay receive an unwarranted reaction in said thread? Most likely ...
Does bringing it up in this thread again serve any other purpose than once again raising tensions? A definite "No" from my side.

Then skip their posts? Or avoid spoiler threads? Use the ignore function? (Is there an ignore function?)

I don't think they are "hiding behind their NDA". I'm sure if they could spoil more, they probably would. They skirt their NDAs fairly regularly so they can spoil stuff. It's not in their best interests to break their NDAs. It is in their best interests to tease and spoil bits of info because it generates interest. In the gaming community, word of mouth does an awful lot of advertising.[citation needed] I certainly appreciate the bits they drop. It serves to fuel and direct my imagination instead of stifling it.

I'd also much rather that the freelancers and developers joke and stuff on forums. It makes them human and relatable instead of monolithic unfriendly ivory tower "professionals". (Even if I don't get the joke. I sometimes wonder if the sheep does, though.) Dealing with people is a lot easier when I can relate to them. So this is a BIG plus for me.

Finally, I'd like to say I enjoy their posts when they explain their thought processes. (For example, Bull had an awesome post on the Catalyst forums explaining how they settled on the priority system.) Even if I don't agree with their conclusion, being able to see how they got there is much more important. For me, it makes the opaque development process far more understandable. In turn, I learn and learning is awesome. Sounds win/win to me.

But as you said, your mileage may vary.

-Temperance

CanRay made a pithy comment. Someone asked what the comment was about. I said he was referencing a joke. Samoth went off about how freelancers shouldn't make jokes, and probably shouldn't post in these threads at all.

So it may not have been mentioned in particular, but to me (and apparently at least one or two other people) there was a pretty clear line of cause and effect going there. I'm sorry if there were some conversational leaps (or backtracks, or sidesteps) that I missed, but to me, it felt like this whole new thread of "those guys shouldn't make smug jokes and post here and stuff, grr!" came about because of that one comment of Ray's. Instead, I guess, it came totally out of nowhere. Which is...better?


Maybe next time Ray says something you don't like, you can use the report button, or PM him about it, or even just talk to him about it (specifically) in a thread, instead of joining in with another poster who's insisting that, essentially, once someone starts to do a little freelancing, they shouldn't be allowed to hang out with everyone else on their old forum any more.

Especially if you're so concerned about conversations not serving any purpose but to raise tensions.

/me still does not know what the hell is going on here . . .

Don't worry, it sounds increasingly like we're talking about two (or more) different things, with wires crossed, which is no doubt adding to the misunderstanding.

I didn't "go off," and I didn't reference anyone or any comment in particular. You guys may not see it from our side since you've been involved with production of SR5 for a year+ at this point, but we're excited for any scrap of news that trickles down, and the "hehe you'll LOVE this but I can't tell you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) " posts don't help. Of course I appreciate the posts that actually help and provide clarification, but a lot of stuff I see from freelancers is the taunting "I have a secret" stuff. I don't post much here, and it's because of that type of thing which is far too common, but like I said, those who do it probably don't realize it.

So...to drag this back on topic before it spirals even further out of control...how about that preview, eh? I'm told I should pimp my fiction, so...how about "Girls With Guns," eh?

Someone said it was "okay," but I can't recall who. Prime Mover, I think. What kept it to just "okay" for you?

I am too stupid to understand the new character generation system, so I can't use it.
Why does the part on choosing metatypes say anything on what special attribute points are, and where they are listed? Why does one have to guess from the examples used whether special attribute advances purchased with the metatype sum up with the ones purchased with Awakening/Emergence? Who won't go for Exceptional Attribute(Magic) or (Resonance)? Does Ambidextrous really cost 4 Karma while an adept Power Point for a mystic adept cost 2?

I enjoyed it. In fact I am going to go back and reread it here in a few. I liked how it showed more depth than just the next run. The nod to pink mohawk got a laugh out of me.

Personally, I'd much rather continue to have them respond to what they can, "hide behind NDA" when they have too and make whatever jokes whenever they want vs for them to say nothing at all.

Thanks. I'm glad it turned out as well as it did; I wanted to have at least one piece out there to prove that I can write something without vampires in it.

Admit it. Everyone in it is a vampire. THey''re just in the closet about their fangs, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The number in parentheses by metatype is the number of special Attribute points you get, and they do sum with the ones you get with Awakening/Emergence (as the technomancer example showed). Just as the skills you get with Awakening/Emergence are in addition to any ones you might get with your skill priority. Exceptional Attribute for Magic or Resonance is indeed a bargain - I don't have many other qualities to compare it too, so some of them may be equally good. The mystic adept's ability to have full mage abilities (minus astral) and buy a full allotment of adept powers does seem a bit too powerful at first glance, but I will reserve judgement until I see the full set of rules.

At 14 Karma, the Exceptional Attribute quality costs more than half your bonus Karma. Just keep that in mind...

But why is neither of this in the actual rules?

I'm okay with mystic adepts being mages, but a PP costing half as much as ambidexterity kinda puzzles.


Yeah, but how long will it take you to get to attribute 7 otherwise, between initiation/submersion and raising it with karma?

Because you're not seeing the full rules, you're seeing a preview, probably. It's, I dunno, maybe half-or-so of the actual full chargen chapter.

Playing a game with a rules system at all takes away freedom, in the abstract. It's not terribly relevant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

The preview only has about the first 1/3 of the chargen rules. It doesn't cover skills, resources, freebie points and costs, nor most of the Qualities. So there's lots missing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But the section (or at least A section) on Metatype Priority is there, and it makes a pretty direct reference to consulting the priority table to see how many Special Attribute points you get - it's a little surprising to see the explanation of that notation being excluded from that section.

It's probably (as in pretty much every other character creation chapter ever published in an RPG) listed later in the chapter in the step of character creation you actually spend them in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Your aside on how "the same" priority selection is pretty much is meaningless. If you want to build an archetype, you're going to build an archetype. They're standard models, which is why they call them "archetypes." If you want to build a variation, you'll be looking at a different priority set with different decisions made with the points in each category. The number of viable Priority builds is going to rival the number of viable Point Buy builds, because Priority isn't that much different, it's just leaner.

Priority is simply not a rigid system. Compare an actual rigid system (ie, D&D) where a single simple choice (character class) automatically fills most of your sheet. Priority still totally allows you to build a weak nerd troll decker or a charismatic weaponsmith dwarf shaman, it just removes the stupidly high-resolution decisions (do I spend 1BP on resources or do I lower my attribute by one and combine that with a lower Awesome Dude quality rating and use the points to increase my social skill group by 1 and add a specialization et cetera) in favor of flatly determining chunks of what your character is focused in and then fine-tuning with the available points in each category. It's really the most effective at separating out the different parts of character building and balancing them against each other.

And now, some of my own little quibblings, this time mostly around the Sprawl Ganger pre-made sheet.

-Dude's got an awful lot of skills at rank 1...which seems kind of odd for a ganger. I get that the aim might have been to make this guy have as many skills as possible, and I personally do not consider myself to be of the mindset of the optimization guys that frequent DS, but why in the hell would a ganger do with Computer, Throwing Weapons, and Performance? I would rather stick more points into upping Pistols or Automatics (nvm that his highest skill is Intimidation).

-And speaking of which, Performance...I assume this is the new SR5 version of the Artisan skill? Or did Artisan get broken up into several other skills? If it's the latter, then that would make a whole lot of sense, since I did feel like just Artisan was WAY to broad and abstract as it was in SR4, and the potential silliness that someone with Artisan could play the piano, cook gourmet French meals, paint the next great Impressionist art piece, AND sing like a choir of angels.

-Wee error regarding the Physical CM for our ganger, as well as for one of the qualities listed: it lists his CM as being 13, but if we take the formula for deriving it (I'm going to go ahead and assume that it'll be the same for SR5) of (Body/2) + 8 (round up), which in this case is (7/2) + 8, that would mean it would come out as 12, not 13.

I THINK what was supposed to happen is that he was supposed to have the Tough as Nails 1 quality, which would have given him that extra +1 box to his CM...but it's not there. Or, more likely, someone got it mixed up with the Guts quality. And all that does (in SR4) is give the character a bonus to resist Intimidation or Fear-based attacks. So unless if Tough as Nails is now called Guts.....don't think so.

-The damage code for the Sprawl Ganger's weapons are...well, scaring me. A lot:



I mean...by the Nine, that's a little bit much!

An SR5 Warhawk can do a base amount of 9P? And with AP -2? That's more than what a base SR4 PJSS Elephant Rifle could do, outside of how the Rifle can hit from farther away than the Warhawk without incurring Range Modifiers!

I'm going to assume this is what the very first announcement meant when they promised for SR5 to be "more lethal"...and if it meant upping the DV of each weapon, that is...not really the way to go. Now it could just be that the Damage Resistance rules might work differently in SR5 to address this, but even then, with most characters averaging at about 10-11P CM, now the likeliehood of a character dying (NPCs, and PCs) in one shot just went up a lot. And honestly? At least at my table, SR4 was still lethal as hell as it was. I would see it happen a lot where characters would die in 1-2 shots. I constantly stressed to my players that in SR, you REALLY really didn't want to get hit with bullets, since there's a good chance you could die in just one attack. But, there was still that leeway where characters can make it out with a bunch of dings and scratches (and damaged 'ware), but still be alive. Here though.....well, it's gonna kind of suck if it's going to be even more likely for starting characters to die on their first run.

-And then there's the fact that: this is the Damage Code for JUST Pistols! If the DV for Pistols are going to be this devastating, what the hell are assault rifles, shotguns, and sniper rifles going to have?

Otherwise, going one-on-one with a GD suddenly got a lot more plausible...

-Last issue that I'll bring up, and this is actually something that has bugged me with all three previews, is that there seems to be a disconnect with the artwork and the text of the previews.

Now, don't get me wrong, the actual artwork is fine and I really really dig the style of it and hope to see the rest of it when I have the book in my hands...but some of it just doesn't really match with the text that's right next to it.

This has been more glaring to me with the artwork preceding the short fiction. In this preview, in "Girls with Guns", our main hero Frank is described as male dwarf (I'd wager in the 40's-60's age range). And that the bulk of the action in the story takes place at a diner, where Frank is fighting off some gangers. The artwork that accompanies this does not reflect this. At all. Instead, it looks like we've got five random shadowrunner-looking people, fighting it out in what seems to be a strip mall. No diner, no old looking dwarf trying to fight off a couple of gangers. Da hell?

Similar problem in the first preview: the artwork for Another Night, Another Run, who are supposed to be about the runners that are going to be on the front cover, and who, according to the fiction presented, are going on a run against an Ares facility when drek hits the fan. Yet the artwork that accompanies this reflects none of that. Instead we get a troll firing a Panther (...ok, this aspect WAS in the fiction, but this one isn't being backed up by Ares Security) at a rogue spirit, being backed up by his male elf spellcaster buddy. In what looks like a dirty alley way. Certainly not the rooftop of a an Ares facility. Now I THINK this is actually supposed to go with the intro chapter of this section, since it mentions about what you would do if a malevolent spirit just sprung up from the ground in front of you, but what's it doing with the fiction and not the section of the book that it's supposed to be in?

Also, the gun that the Sprawl Ganger is carrying...that is not any of the guns that his sheet has in his gear section. That gun is the freakin' Barrens Special from Gun Heaven 2.

I'm starting to get a bit worried if the artists making these pieces had no idea what section of the book they were making them for, or had no context to the text that the artwork was supposed to be accompanied with.

Realistically, an awful lot of people should have Computer at 1 (so they don't fumble around with their commlink like a dummy). Throwing Weapons 1 seems like a likely skill for a ganger to pick up, because, well, throwing things is cool? I mean, he can whip a knife at a dude, not totally botch if he lucks into some grenades, whatever. It's a 1! It basically just means he's not all thumbs when it comes to tossing something (hell, maybe he just likes basketball). And Performance 1 could just mean he idles away his time on a street corner spittin' rhymes or doing stand-up for his buddies or something.

Is it so weird that a character picks up a couple of 1s in the course of growing up in the Barrens and stuff? He knows the basics about how to take care of his weapons, he's able to fumble through picking a lock and lies and some other unsavory skills, he's fired automatics a few times but is better with a pistol, he's got a little luck at putting stuff together (including people)...he's not an archetype I worked on, so it's certainly possible I'm totally making my own assumptions, but to me it just seems like a guy that's stumbled across "I'm not awesome at this, but I've done it a few times successfully" on a lot of skills, from growing up where and how he did.


Worry not! It is not an error, and it's not a change in Tough as Nails or Guts. There is something else on his character sheet making it happen, but blah blah blah NDA probably not allowed to say and I don't want to lose my job (especially this year). I'll just say "no, it's not an error," and hopefully that makes you feel better about the ugly bastard. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


The artwork that "Another Night, Another Run" corresponds to is the cover itself of SR5, and I think you'll find it matches up pretty well. The interior artwork is there largely for spacing issues, and because, well, there was some cool artwork lying around.

ETA (more explanation, to hopefully make some sense): And, not for nothin', but I think your core assumption is kind of backwards. Most of the time (especially recently), it's been a matter of us writing a story (or building a character) to match some artwork (or more often, some art notes). The freelancer writing something and the freelancer drawing something aren't a duo working side-by-side on a comic (more's the pity), we're folks who will probably never ever talk directly to one another, both with folks above our pay grade doing the communicating, as one of our bosses writes art notes and his boss relays them to him, etc, etc. So sometimes you take a few liberties to try and get it all to match up, sometimes you buy gear and just figure "well, one shitty cheap pistol is as good as another" because you make due with what you've got stats for, etc, etc.

We don't write short fiction and then have some artist read it for inspiration. It's far more normal to pitch an idea for a story, have someone approve it and write up art notes, relay art notes to the art director, art director relays them to an artist, yadda yadda yadda. Then the final versions both get submitted (from different people and TO different people), and you make what edits (and so does the artist, hopefully) to try and make things match up.

End of the day, getting what so many people call "fluff" to match up with what so many people call "pretty pictures" isn't, and can't be, the top priority of putting together a sourcebook. Unfortunately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)