No, it breaks SR's internal logic due to the massive, colossal, epic disconnect between the way technology has previously been stated to work in the Sixth World, and the way it is now being stated to work, with absolutely no in-universe explanation given for the change.


I have no idea where he's getting the idea that nobody uses radios, drones, or tacnets. I see posts here on Dumpshock all the time about the awesomeness of tacnets (and they are pretty damned awesome), and my players use drones and comms all the time. Which reminds me, I should really start throwing some hackers at them.

Anyway, hacking enemy comms is super useful in combat. Hacking enemy drones is super useful. Hacking the enemy tacnet... holy shit, the havoc you could wreak. Why in great Cthulhu's unholy name is it necessary for cyberware hacking to be a viable avenue?

I do not know how to move my post!



As written above I get that the metagame explanation is kind of thin, but I'll have JH rather concentrate on putting together a great game than arguing over the in game explanations of that point right now.



Because it could be fun amd make for some awesome stories and runs to happen. I'll give you that - if overdone - it can turn out to be a real pain in the a**. And what part of Shadowrun -besides playing it with friends- is not a pita if overdone? It all comes down to how it will be used at your gaming table, where you have a say in how the game will be played, social contract and whatnot.

btw - great Idea moving this subject to a different thread!

love,
Sunshine

The part with "making sense" should not start at the gaming table and your GM , it should start with the very first sentence in the basic book.



Not really. We are talking about standard combat options - not about plot devices or story arcs. It´s in the same area as "why do I get +1 dice if I aim?"

The official reasoning was "hackers are not combat viable, so all items and cyberware need to be hackable and we achieve that with online bonuses" and so totally ignoring already existing online commlink, online radio communication, online drone remote control, online tacnet and indeed the non-professional enemy using online items/ware because of factory default settings.

If that was not enough to convince the writers of SR5 that a hacker/decker is combat viable, then you should not expect any reasonable ingame explanation except metagame handweaving.

SYL

I don't know how the first sentence in the basic book will read but I am fairly sure it will make sense. IMO the "making sense" part is exactly starting at the gaming table. How should a game designed to be taken as a jumpstart for your and your gaming buddies imagination ever make sense without you accomodating it to your wants and needs. How could something totally "make sense" out of the box that was designed to be used arround gaming tables from arround the world? With multiple emphasis on so many different aspects of the game world that shadowrun is. IMO what you are asking for is impossible.


Are you talking about combat hacking or online bonuses?


I try to use this as an example:

There were always minor things that bothered me considering continuity or plausibility. I have two choices and I am sure we could come up with more. 1) I change the rule to the comfort of my gaming group or 2) when playing with new people I keep consistent in my interpretation of the rules so they don' t get blindsided by the rules.

I can't remember any rpg that didn't need a variation of 1) to suit the people who devoted their time to come together and play that game.

love,
Sunshine

I was just asking to remove strange "online bonuses" and make normal "online and offline bonuses, as usual".You know, as in SR4 for example, where a reaction enhancer could work together with wired reflexes, your vision googles were not able to catch tiny info bits out of the fresh air and where almost everything what was tried as an explanation for the new online bonuses was simply ... a tacnet. Which is everything but "asking for the impossible".

The only thing combat hacking the enemy team (both player and non player) needed was the removal of extended tests - which happened in SR5. Then you could go and have fun with the enemy drone, communication and tacnet. Which was exactly what JH wanted in SR5 - and totally ignored. Instead he gave us wireless chemical seals, reaction enhancers and glasses, and every explanation by both the authors and the community ended in "what you describe is a tacnet".

'Which ended in "yeah well, tacnets could be part of reaction enhancers now".

Do you really think that it is impossible to simply ask for rules and ingame explanations to make sense, based on the universe?

SYL

I think my biggest problem with the matrix bonuses is that they are illogical and contrived. It is especially infuriating that wired reflexes and reaction enhancers need to be connected to the matrix to be able to work together. Wireless bonuses is not inherently a bad idea, but their implementation, even from what little hard information I have gleaned from the discussions, seems to be illogical bonuses, and penalties to things that worked fine without wireless before.

I would be fine if wireless did things like reduce penalties for indirect fire, allow instant communications without needing to expend a simple action, or give bonuses to perception, surprise, and some teamwork tests. Make a world where newbies run with wireless, smarter runners turn it off, and the best runners use it, along with some hefty protections for it.

Heck, here's a basic gameplay example.

What happens with the wireless-necessary systems when you go out into the NAN lands where there isn't anything to produce an omnipresent network?

Is SR intended to be a strictly urban game now?

Well, I hope you use a satellite dish on your reaction enhancer.

SYL

1) The one with DNI - you know, cyberware and stuff. It tells the machine "Hey, dude, I just moved 45 degrees to the right and 10 degrees up, isn´t that awesome"?
2) The one which ... has sensors (the same way your smartphone known if you have it moved upwards or downwards

Now, I don´t know the definition of what wired reflexes and reaction enhancers are in SR5, but let us have a look at the SR4 rulebook (and Ii would bet my money on copy/paste in SR5... )



So, superconducators and adrenalin stimulators work better because they have a homepage now? I mean we are not talking about a tactical network. Or an implanted commlink. Or remote controlled drones.

We are talking about adrenalin stimulators, glasses with binoculars, superconductor material and an airtight construction which works besser if it is online and hackable. Which does not make any sense. A superconductor does not work better because you add a smartphone to it´s surface.

SYL

If that's how you imagine it, fine. Those motion-detecting sensors of today that you mentioned are incredibly primitive and error-prone. Perhaps in the future they will be awesome and guaranteed accurate. But just maybe those extra dice need something more so.

Like a hackable, spam ridden, matrix noise dependable (you didn´t forget the mechanism of matrix noise, did you?) online system, which cannot be in any way be replaced via cable, skinlink or ... DNI ...

Please wear your glowing pink suit to get a +3 bonus to initiative.

SYL

I can just make shit up, too, but that doesn't mean it fits the setting or the two decades of precedent for how technology in it works.

And now I have a new signature, thank you.

I think everybody who thinks "online bonuses" are the steamiest, stinkiest, smelliest, squishest pile of bulldrek that has even been inflicted on Shadowrun should add this quote to their signature, too.

What are we talking about, anyway?

In 5e, What advantage do you get from having your Wired Reflexes with an enables wifi connection? How easy is it to hack?

it all started in the rules thread. wired reflexes don't stack with reaction boosters... unless they both have wifi enabled.

And your chemical seal seals up as an action you have to take, unless its wireless, in which case it's some free, nonwithstanding the fact that literally nothing needs it to have anything but a DNI to you.

I suspect the implication is meant to be that "not connected" also means "non-DNI'd".

And that is a retarded implication, because both datajacks and skinlinks have been a Thing since the '50s.

That would have to represent an in-game change where shutting off one means of connection means shutting off all forms of connectivity, clearly - a change due to the new protocols, perhaps, which are patched across through any available means of connection to any other nodes.

You realize you're now just making up things that are entirely counter to any idea of network security ever considered, right? The stuff you're saying is a literal leap backwards in how devices interact.

I can imagine that it's a manufacture uplink you need. Like all the games and software nowadays "need" an internet connection to work. It's not a necessity to funtion, but the manufacture wants to make sure you're connected and he can keep track of his stuff.
The consequence of this HAS to be, that there is a hardware/software override mechanism possible, that will make the gear work properly without wifi enabled and constant matrix tracking. It will be a 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) upgrade every decent shadow doc or hacker connection can provide and every runner needs.

This is how I'm viewing it too - it's similar to present day Xbox or SimCity nonsense. I'd allow anyone with a Hardware skill and a few hours to make this mod, similiar to the hot-sim mod allowed for the sim module.

Players will still go to great lengths to not be online and vulnerable, so nothing will have changed in the game other than making (large?) portions of the player-base angry at this bad idea.

No, the activation speed is based on "is it connected to the Matrix".

By the text of the rules it it the same whether DNI or not.

And the text gives zero in-universe rationale on any of it.



-k

I'm suggesting that the corps did something in accordance with their interests without giving a damn how it impacted people who don't an alternative anyways. Always Online is good for them for a lot of reasons.

I think you missed the point - I was considering a possible implication that it is not possible to have the DNI operating without other connectivity active, or that it is otherwise assumed that if it is connected in some form that it eventually reaches the Matrix.