Precisely. If you have two guys, each with a chem seal, and they both simutaneously press the "seal" button, the guy who has the system connected to the Matrix for some reason has his activate as a Free Action while the other guy takes up a Simple Action.

This is completely independant of the method used to do the activating. If the non-Matrix connected guy uses a speed of thought DNI trigger to activate his Chemseal, and the Matrix-connected dude physically presses an actual "seal" button, the Matrix connected dude STILL has his chemseal activate faster.



-k

So what is the definition of The Matrix in SR5?

What happens in a wifi inhabitating building (your generic research facility, where a poor prototype is being held against his will)

Whats happens in areas without classic Matrix access (deserts, war zones, Z slums etc)

SYL

The Matrix is the Matrix. The definition is less important than the fact that while on the Matrix, hackers can get all up in your shit and screw your devices up nine ways to sunday. If you want to avoid hacker sodomy, you can, at the cost of not getting those Wireless Bonuses.

The answer to your other two questions is "No Wireless Bonuses For You".



-k

If the bonuses were actual bonuses and not basic functionalities in previous editions, that wouldn't even be as bad as it now is.

Sorry to call you out, but you've made this error enough times that you must think it's the actual word you're looking for.

It's "inhibiting."

Does any of the authors (Patrick, Critias etc) can comment on "online bonuses and wifi inhibitating buildings or deserted areas"? I mean that almost all items break down when the runners leave the city is surely covered somewhere in the basic book? Or has been discussed by the authors?

What is the official stance for that? Hackers and item users are screwed because no matrix for you? A satellite dish in your ars*** for your reaction enhancer?

@epicedion: thanks, too much magic discussions over certain spirit types. ^^

SYL

That sums up several pages of us all going into detail rather well, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)


More and more, I don't think I'm spending money on this edition, simply because I won't willingly support bad game design with my limited gaming budget.

Personally, I'll wait out till the core books have been released entirely. In German. Incorporating the first row of Errata, because I trust Pegasus cares about quality like that. I'm more than willing to pay twice the price of an American book (imported and all) for that, too (and yes, Pegasus charges heavily; a splatbook costs $50, the rulebook will probably be around $120). Then I'll see if I convert and houserule or adapt some parts into my games, or just ignore the game system and stay with what I currently use.

Skinlinks are gone, btw

SYL

I wonder what, if anything, is the rationale behind this. Purposely annoying players to shoehorn in the "cool" hackability of everything? Well, houseruling ahead, barring a spark of sanity and a down-graded skinlink in some future book.

Guess ...

(hint, it starts with "hackers must be combat hacking capable, so everything must be wireless")

SYL

That's not what I meant; I just wonder whether the authors really are oblivious how much they are going against what, apparently, many players want with this.

I never particularly liked skinlinks. I'm probably in the minority on that, but they just rubbed me the wrong way for a couple of reasons. First, it seemed like they were must-haves to avoid getting data-raped; either you drop 50 nuyen for every piece of electronics on your person, or you will get hacked constantly. There's no choice, there. Second, and I may be wrong on this, but the science just seems questionable to me.

Having said that, I do agree there needs to be a non-wireless way to connect your gear. My first thought is just to rule that cables are part of your lifestyle, and sufficiently trivial that you don't need to track them individually. You just say, "My shit's wired," and that's the end of it. Having a glitched soak test sever a cable is a good idea, though.

The functionality of skinlinks was really a disaster for the SR4 idea of the hackable PAN. Combined with a nonexistent mechanic (they suggested it could be done but provided no explicit avenues to do so) and the extensive amount of time it required to hack anything, "combat hacking" ended up about as viable as a snowball fight in the Sahara. It could be done, but damn it'd be a lot of work.

Killing skinlinks is not a terrible idea. They'd gotten too good. I'm not overly familiar with them from previous editions, but the SR4 mechanic of 100% effective data transmission over skin made wireless anything, well, stupid. Or at least mostly stupid.

And now you just get data-raped all the time. Is that a better choice? SkinLink was the only way out of the universal hackability of everything. Now? You cannot exist without a decker babysitting you. I fail to see the improvement.


I agree that this would be a better idea than taking away basic functionality and enforcing universal hackability with the prize being "gear still works as in previous editions".


That's because the idea of a hackable PAN is so horrible for most players. That's because combat hacking in itself isn't a good idea because it means you cannot go anywhere without a hacker. Combined with the fact that apparently expensive decks are back (correct me if I'm wrong), this means the team is incapable of existing without a decker constantly babysitting them. Which just sucks.


Downgrading them - say, limiting the number of items skinlinked to a comlink to it's DR or something - is an even better idea. It's a lot less patronizing and feels a lot less like being robbed of a defense you needed out of spite that you didn't like the idea of being universally hackable.

Well. Sidestepping that it is supported by the rules by the nature of the rules, you know, supporting matrix aware cybernetics getting a bonus...

...It seems like your gripe is that in one addition something operated one way. And in another edition, it operated another.

So yeah. I get that: It's not cool that someone retconned our cheese.

But once again, that's a far cry from there being "ZOMG! NO REASON FOR THIS!! *SMASH SMASH*". That's a complaint about the edition continuity, not technical limitations. I was answering the latter.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

It was the way out, but it was a terrible way out. That said:



That's the problem. They've stripped the skinlink and enforced online wireless.

My perfect resolution would be to strip the skinlink but only force people to go online wireless if they don't use invasive cyberware. That is, your Essence-free crap is vulnerable, but your internal stuff is damn near sacrosanct.

(also stupid stuff like your armor needing a wireless connection should just be tossed out)

This would mean that the Street Samurai with his internal everything would scoff at your hacking, but the gunslinger adept who saves Essence by using smartlink glasses might get hacked. Then you can provide a "dumb" version that isn't as good and uses stupid-looking wires that aren't as effective and make you look like a nutter.

Killing established things is very certainly a terrible idea, in my and a lot of other people's opinion.
Sure, there's an edition change. Stuff is bound to work differently.
But removing stuff 'just because' is simply lazy. There are a lot of different ways how such situations can be handled.
Dikote could have been made an option only available for melee weapons instead of adding to everyone's dog and their neighbor's damage, body and armor.
Skinlink, in the same vein could work very well as a commlink upgrade, but only for a small number of linked pieces of gear. This way it becomes a deliberate choice instead of being the no-brainer it is in SR4. This just off the top of my head.

I agree that skinlink was a problem. But why was it a problem?
People didn't like hackable gear. Combat hacking was bleh, because you had no defense against it. This took the control of such a situation away from the player.
A countermeasure was introduced and suddenly combat hacking became really difficult (wi-fi enabling nanites, skinlink echo, e.g.), because players like to minimize their risks.
The realization dawned that maybe someone went above and beyond the call of duty in handling the situation. Skinlink was too cheap and too ultimative.
Just removing it now is the extreme in the other direction. Instead of thinking about how to make it work in a useful way, it's removed, goes the way of the Dodo and is never talked about again, except in hushed whispers around the fires of SR8 players in a broken, postapocalyptic urban wilderness.

I was't a fan either. Felt like a cop-out really to having wires.

I know smartlinks were described and having palm links available, but they were obvious and visible at least.

Well there could be a reason rather than "just because." Maybe they cause cancer. Maybe the quantity of data passing over skinlinks is enough to turn a person's skin into a low-grade wireless transmitter/receiver (thereby negating the security benefit entirely), so the technology falls out of favor compared to just plain wireless. Maybe a change to the Matrix backbone's wireless frequency for better range/reliability/bandwidth has had the unintentional effect (or intentional effect!) of disrupting the ability of skinlinked devices to transmit data cleanly while in range of virtually any matrix node.



I'm not sure I like the skinlink from a physics perspective anyway, so I wouldn't mind it becoming a dodo. What sort of power requirements would it take to push a coherent signal with any bandwidth across a meter or so of someone's skin? How much heat would that generate? Wouldn't it basically require electrocuting the person?

You mean...like most gunfights?

Last I checked "big scary trolls" were quite the lead magnet.

And maybe, just maybel, they just want to force everyone online to be hacked without even breaking a sweat about such ... things like an ingame justification. You know, just like they did it with the online bonuses.

SYL

@Epicedion:
Making up a fluff reason for it going away is a little less lazy, but still lazy, IMO. Tweaking it, so it becomes a choice instead of a must is better in every case I can imagine.

The real problem is, that for all we know, it's also impossible to use wires. And you will quickly arrive in WTF territory for every moderately modern person (meaning: not Amish or 90) if you try to explain those away.

For the record: I am not a big proponent of skinlink. I do realize that it's (in its current incarnation) a problem. I also don't think that it was very well explained. It's basically a macguffin that works somehow, just in the same way a Heisenberg compensator works (which is "Just fine, thank you").
But it was, as a matter of fact, in the core rulebook.
I'm not saying "The stupid is in for so long now, we should just run with it". I'm saying: Reign in the stupid. It's a good time for that.

Deleting the stupid on the other hand? Sends the wrong signals.

Except that the skinlink is the PAN security equivalent of a thermonuclear hand grenade. Even if you reign in the blast radius considerably it's still poorly conceived.

Extreme hyperbole.