How do the new Leadership rules work, RHat?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

And does it get a wireless bonus? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Source: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?top...12554#msg212554

Wow... Interesting!

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Especially since Rally can mean the difference between getting an extra pass or not, or having to sacrifice a pass to use those "initiative -5" actions or not.

You can make a Leadership Face and your team will love you.

How does a player determine the number of knowledge skills that they begin play with in SR 5?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

So first you target one (willing?) target with a complex action for x number of leadership Combat Turns (hits or net hits?). If this has (ever?) failed before on a target, it doesn't work. Then during those turns you can help them with the other three actions by using a complex action and another Leadership + Charisma [Mental] Opposed Test. Am I getting that right?

So the leader can use their complex actions to give minor buffs. This sounds like a great addition for dedicated faces who aren't the best at hacking, fighting or slinging spells. So far it seems a little ambiguous on how it works, unless they've clarified it in another section.

My reading is that Command FORCES someone to accept you as their leader - without Command, they may still voluntarily do so. With Leadership 4+ and Charisma 4+, you'd have to be pretty foolish not to listen to the guy (assuming he's on your side anyways).

Must be some limits as to who it can be applied to, I can not see one being able to command a Red Samurai to accept you as their leader for even a second, unless you have previously fooled them into thinking you are at least on their side (like a visiting VIP) and are just taking charge in a hostile situation.


Rally: Your subordinates add 1 to their Initiative Score for every 2 hits you get.

So will this work with other Initiative enhancing methods, even if said methods explicitly say they don't work with other Init boosters?

Personally I would lean toward a yes in this case as it is not really your own reflexes being enhanced but rather you are working in a more coordinated/efficient manner, but again better to be ask now.

This sounds an awful lot like MMO "buffer" abilities for the face. I'm not so sure I like how this leadership thing looks at first glance. The skill description reads like it's something from D&D4. Which might be fine for a game like D&D, but this kind of ability doesn't fit into a game like SR (imo).

Eh. An effective leader WILL have an effect on the performance of the people he leads,

Again it comes down to coordinating efforts.

Add in a good tacnet or similar and that leadership skill should have some good synergy from it.

There is that, certainly, but that it is limited to that? Not a proposition I think I could agree with.

there may be something else, faith in leader and motivation obviously, but that is treading in a gray area when you want to put rules to it without crossing into quasi-magical effects.

In a sense the face is almost acting like an adept if you go too far out. So the bonuses can not be too big or there will be questions as to how he is getting them....

Psychological impact - nothing quasi-magical involved. Helping people push just that little bit harder, and such. Or from another angle... Where's the far more substantial Initiative boost from Edge come from?

Toss me in the not impressed category. This smacks of the intution 1/logic 1 Elan (of Order of the Stick) using inspire competence bard abilities.... *sings a bard song to make everyone sneak better!*

Though the point you're missing is the applicable social modifiers... those things tons of people kept forgetting.

Now look at the applicable social modifiers on page 140 as well.



But in any case... pursuant to the original question...
That means the infiltrator/face type now needs 3 skill groups if hypothetically leadership isn't the dump skill it's typically been. Acting, Stealth, and Influence. That's a lot of skills leaving little room for marginal combat ability... perception... etc.

Yeah I assume that is what is meant by the if you lead people who accept you as a leader part. It makes no sense to be a dusty team of shadowrunners and then command some people who were just shooting at you to stop and open thr door for you. Without them at least accepting you you can't make any leadership tests even the base command test.

"If you lead people who accept you as their (lone) superior, even temporarily, you can take a Complex Action to make a simple Leadership + Charisma [Social] Test. How this helps depends on what you choose to do."
And then one of the options is
Command: The target Resists with a Leadership + Willpower [Mental] test (With Social Modifiers, p. 140). For every net hit you get, the target accepts you as their leader for 1 Combat Turn.

So yeah there has to be some reaosn they see you as a superior.

I don't really have an issue with the concept of these benefits, my main thing is I'd see it more a s afucntion of a tactics skill not leadership. But game balance wise I can see why they would put in under socail skills instead of lets say logic skills.

Dude only deckers are focussed enough that they can't buy combat ability.

Comparing Edge to anything is like apples and oranges though. It is a game mechanic thrown in to allow for cinematic effect and you could run the game completely without it as some games do.

I can agree psychological impact motivating you to strive just that bit more as well as one leader pointing at an enemy mage yelling 'GEEK THAT SOB' to focus the group fire. Anyone who has played in an mmorpg pvp area and the opposition takes the time to emote pointing at you to designate you for combined assault will know the feeling. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


All I am trying to do is narrow down when it could work and not. Again if the leader rallies us providing a +3 to Init rolls and I already have Increased Reflexes giving me +3 to init would they still stack? It is an important point as it normally can not stack with other Init boosters, plus the cap in game is still +4, but does the Leader Rally fall into this category and thus does not stack or can it stack but just up to the +4 cap total or something else? The Leader will need to know these things so if he is not wasting abilities.

Yeah I know with only two skill groups to speak of!

It sure is hard on them to brick that gear!

Even then most deckers don't bother with the entire skill groups only cherry picking hacking & computer to the max. (remember data search was combined with computer! most relied on stealth over cybercombat and only put a single rank in ewar to make the checks).

What this is really going to do is help your opposition. They'll definitely have a leader already set up.

Also, what kind of proximity are we talking about? Do they need to at least be nearby for the bonuses to work? Also, if it's hits and not net hits, it's kind of all-or-nothing, isn't it?

This could have a big effect on allied NPCs. I am curious about the social modifiers that would apply to the opposed test.

Speaking of Intiative, since the new augmented max is current base attribute +4, (6 + 4) x 2 = 20 max Initiative. You can also increase Initiative by +4, so that would be 24 + the total of 5 dice, which roll on average 17.5 for an average of 31.5 without the Exceptional Attribute positive quality (minus 1 for Dwarves and Trolls). Could lucky rolls by both the leader and a character's initiative push that total to 41 for five meatspace Combat Actions?

Falconer, it looks like the magician face is less viable with the new skill group setup, but how about an Elven aspected conjurer shaman face? I think that would rock! And then have a more focused spellcaster on the team. I think that would work well indeed.

If you get lucky enought on the dice roll you can get it to 50+ for six actions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

With a good leader roll from the face, it's theoretically possible to get 60+ for a seventh, since you can get 54 without the face getting involved. The face would need 12 successes, so it involves some edge on their part.