I am trying to figure out what the point of Grids is. They feel like an extra hurdle to understanding and visualizing the Matrix, and they have strange interactions with the rules.

From what I understand, if you and your target are on different grids, you take a -2 on Matrix actions against him. To fix that, hopping across grids is a Complex action unless you don't have access to the target's grid. In that case, you need to Hack on the Fly or Brute Force to grid hop. If you fail, nothing seems to happen besides wasting your time. There's also a technomancer complex form that lets you simultaneously be on all grids at once. Cool, I guess.

Okay, so there's whole slew of grid hopping actions necessary to avoid a mere -2 penalty. Maybe that's okay or interesting or whatever, but what about public grids?

If I'm on a local grid trying to mess with some corporate guy on a global grid, I take a -2 penalty. If I grid-hop (or hack/brute my way there), the penalty is erased. Worst case -2, best case +0.

However, if I'm on a public grid, I take -2 to all Matrix actions. If I'm on a local grid trying to mess with some punk on a public grid, I get a -2 to all actions since we're on different grids. Hypothetically there could be two public grids, in which case I could be using a public grid (-2) to mess with someone else on a public grid (-2). Worst case, -4, best case, -2. His defense tests are unaffected since defending isn't a Matrix action.

So why are public grids--the garbage tier of Matrix access--also the safest place to be as a non-hacker? I'm puzzled.

Would I lose anything if I simply ignored grids entirely? I don't see how the added complexity makes hacking any more intriguing, other than adding extra useless tests.

EDIT: rephrased some stuff.

It's safer, but it isn't just penalizing the hacker's hacking, it's penalizing all Matrix actions. Joe Idiot with Logic + Computer 4 trying to data search the nearest pizza joint gets the penalty too.

My concept of the Matrix is that a corporate grid should be safer than a public grid for its users. The example on p228 with Tesseract and the "mean-looking ork" make no mention of grids, but I'm guessing the alley-dwelling ork was using a public grid. In that case, Tesseract should have a nasty -2 penalty on the roll. I realize it's just an example and doesn't include every possible modifier under the sun, but why should bricking the street punk's gun be harder than bricking a corpsec's gun?

It's just weird to me, maybe should be errata'd. For instance: you never suffer a penalty for attempting Matrix actions against targets on a public grid. So pub vs. pub is -0, local vs pub is -0, pub vs local is -2, etc.

Well, just making the attempt is sufficient to get your Overwatch Score ticking...

If it were ALL Matrix actions, that could at least be read as "when both attacker and defender are on the public grid, both get -2". However the wording is quite clear "When you’re attempting a Matrix action against a target on another grid, you take a –2 dice pool penalty" (SR5, p 233). In other words, best practice for every corp's Department for Unethical Research is to put their super secret host on the public grid. Any intruder will get -2 by virtue of either being on the public grid or hacking across grids, while the host rolls its full defense pool.

But the real problem is that the -2 modifier (very worst case -4, if you're public and hacking something on another grid) really represents all there is to the grid concept. All the talk about making the matrix more secure, several pages of rules text, and the extra bookkeeping for players and GMs boil down to nothing more than the Matrix equivalent of getting a Smartgun bonus or not. And then there is the name "grids", which is so totally not evocative of what it represents, namely an ISP.
After wireless reflexes and batons, grids clearly take the second place of the "special" rules so far.


PS: TMs can use "Transcend Grid" to ignore the penalties for hacking across grids and being on the public grid, but again, why bother with all the rules attached for a lousy two dice?

I think it fairly certain that the overall security is going to be tougher on the Regional grids, and then even tougher on the Megacorp grids. I'm not sure what form that would take in the short term, since GOD scores and conversion seem to work the same everywhere. Part of it might be roving spiders, like security guards. (Where as the public grid will probaly have more nuisances, such as gangs and tribes of hacker kidz)

In the long term, it means more G-Men resources tracking you long after the crime is over and you've jacked out. If you hit the Corp grids, they probaly take it pretty bad. And it's a grand old tradition for Aztechnology and MCT to be ridiculously vindictive and ruthless, so hitting those is probaly the worst. Although a GM may have to create these rules themselves until the Matrix book is out. I'm not sure yet if it's in this book, as I'm still digesting it.

There's other ways to solve crimes as well, besides the Matrix. Shaking down info brokers for example, just like the cops shake down pawn shops. Depends on how mad the corp is and what resources they put into it.

One of the things I really liked about the SR1/2/3 matrix rules was the Grids. You had LTG's (local grid) and RTG's (regional grid) which were separated by SAN's (System Access Node) and then Corps and other groups could have their own grids with several systems on it. Grids gave the matrix a true sense that it was a separate world that you had to journey through. Sure, you can risk accessing that corporate grid across several RTG's, but you risk bringing the really powerful security forces down on your head.

SR4 threw most of that out and emphasized Augmented Reality. AR is conceptually a completely different experience for the end user. Yes, there was still VR, but all of the fluff text and game mechanic emphasis was on AR. Hacking was less of a journey. I really liked how streamlined it was, but it always felt like a lot was missing.

Now, add to that the formalized GOD and Overwatch mechanics, and this is, IMHO, one of the best matrix implementations around. It catches a lot of the spirit of SR1, but has the streamlining that I liked about SR4.

You guys seem to be running into the trap of thinking that grids are what they used to be, namely subdivisions of the Matrix. They are not, the new "grids" are nothing but ISPs for the one, huge, undivided Matrix. There are no spiders patrolling a certain grid and "no sense of a separate world", all there is are ISPs and a -2 DP modifier if your target happens to use another ISP.

Just read it again, and yes I see what you mean. Each grid does have it's own demiGod though. It's not clear how automated this is though. One question I have is can the demiGOD purposely choose not to boot the decker? Because that might give physical security forces time to reach the decker's meat body, especially if it's like the bank example and he's close. Giving the hacker the boot might help him escape into the crowd ahead of security forces.

One possibility is the reason they build on their own Corp grid is their grids are given bandwidth priority. So it'd be too huge a business disadvantage to move everything onto the slower public grid. But certain black sites might go on the Public grid for the very reason you mentioned. It's the old war of security versus access.

Or they made a glaring mistake, but if so I'm sure they'll have some reason by the time the Matrix book gets here. The problem is how to kill some hackers in the meantime. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The possibility does remain that the G-Men will hunt you harder for hitting say a Renraku grid target. They are something separate from the somewhat automated Overwatch and Convergence system.

...but they all share the same OS (overwatch score) and response once the OS hits 40, so which grid you are on is totally inconsequential. Again.

The way I'm seeing it from what I've read is that Grids by and large don't really matter in the way that the old LTG RTG system did. They are essentially ISP's and yet again they're not.

Here's how it breaks down to me.

Overwatch tally increases for both Illegal activity and for the time you spend logged into the Matrix Illegally.
Public Grid has no such thing as an Illegal Login, ipsofacto you can be a hacker and just sit there as long as you want without accumulating Overwatch tally. However trying to do anything on the Public grid (except defense) gives you -2 Dice penalty. Not a huge deal for Deckers but a bigger deal for Average Joe (with his stat of 2-3 and his skill of the same and no Cyberprograms). Not to mention it's just that bit harder to get into some hosts from the Public Grid anyway (hosts still acting like hosts used to in many regards) inflicting a -4 penalty to access in some cases (Public Grid + Cross grid).

The Global and Local Grids, well, they are a lot easier to work on for Joe Average and everyone else. The Grids all layer and intersect (which is why you can see Hosts and icons across grids) but their real function is to provide better access to certain hosts (No Cross Grid problems for example) while making it difficult to visit others. Trying to get into a Renraku sponsored host from the Shiawase Grid? That could be tricky. may be easier to use a Renraku public gridded Host and then hop from that Host to the Renraku Grid before heading for the Host you're after. Hosts are where the real work gets done after all. But why bother? why not just go from Shiawase Grid to Renraku Grid? Or just to the Host direct? Because it mentions legitimate access to a Grid and that does follow some of the old logic pathways. To go straight from Shiawase to Renraku is an illegitimate access, but to hop through Hosts etc. Well it's a hole in the system for deckers to exploit.

Don't forget that spotting the Hidden stuff too suffers the cross grid penalties. So that's a good reason NOT to put your stuff on the Public Grid. Your security is also at the -2 (because everything that isn't defense is) and duration matters nothing to the Overwatch tally out on the public. Better to keep your stuff on your grid with your security (Grids are Extraterritorial dontcha know).

Sorry, no taking hosts as shortcuts. When you leave a host, you return to the grid from which you entered. (p. 239)


And your firewall obviously is defense. If your host is on the public grid, all attackers get -2 to their DP, while you roll the full pool to defend. If somebody still manages to hack his way inside, both the intruder and the IC get -2. Ergo, at worst the -2 affects both sides equally and at best it only affect your opponent, that sounds like a great deal to me.

Well pointed out Sengir. A sentence I had missed and will be house ruling away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Although for your second point, No IC on the Public Grid (or any Grid allegedly) you only get that in Hosts.

I was talking about securing your host (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
As long as the attacker is outside, he gets -2 and your firewall is unchanged. Once he is inside, both he and the IC get -2. Ergo, public grid is better for highly secure stuff.

Just been nosing through and it looks like we weer wrong. ALL Matrix actions suffer a -2 penalty (pg 234) on the public grid.

I'd also be very tempted to rule that since the Public Grid is the Barrens of the Matrix World that out there in that low priority, low resolution, cesspool of cyberspace there is no GOD. Unless they send G-Men in there after you. Sure it can see and track you but because of it's open access nature they cannot Converge on you. Makes the G-Men thing a little more interesting.

Hmm, I'd say rolling defense dice is not really an "action"...on the other hand it's clearly worded differently from the hacking across grids...

True, but it does mention the defense test under the Matrix Actions red header before the actions list. So while you;re not Making an Action as such I'd certainly consider the roll to be a Matrix Action for the purposes of the Public Grid modifier.

I'm not exactly convinced, as actions are either free or simple or complex...but hey, if both get the modifier (and putting a host on "real" grid is better) we're back at my major criticism from above: All there ever is to grids is losing 2 dice or not losing them.

Sengir is arguing my point pretty effectively, but I don't think a defense test is a Matrix action. It's more of a reaction, and the part where it mentions it before the red header just explains that the opposition may be rolling even if he's not even logged on. Only a full defense test is an action, an "interrupt action" to be precise, which may or may not be considered an action--arguable either way I guess.

If the public grid penalty said "-2 to all Matrix TESTS" then I would agree, but it doesn't.

So for the sake of the one time a day some hyped up decker clot decides to sleaze or hack their way into my Host and do some mischief, I need to gimp my entire organization and all my customers for the 99.99999999999999% of time the Decker isn't there? The 99.9999999999999999% of the time I am pitting my organization against other bigger meaner smarter organizations?

And GOD is on my side too?

On another practical note you need to consider the Noise modifiers that will additionally impact the Decker who sticks to the puiblic grid.

Was the chapter clear on what kind of noise you'd get on the Public grid? The way I read it, you get the -2 on Matrix actions on the Public grid due to lag, because the corps are prioritizing their own and rich customer's data. Noise seems a completely separate issue not based on grid, but on distance to the host and physical location. (Like the spam zones mentioned)

I do think there are plenty of reasons for the megacorps to stay off the public Grid though. One, as mentioned, profit. They went to all this trouble to set this up specifically to be able to prioritize their data. A small bonus against rare hacker attacks isn't worth the reaction speed lost in operations generally. Two is the GMen will pursue more harshly hackers that hit Megacorp Grid sites, we just don't have the mechanics for it yet and will have to make it up. And this may not matter because the Megas may not be worried enough to care, but being off the Public Grid protects them from every two bit hacker who doesn't have the skill or nuyen to leave the Public Grid.

Something Bull posted tells me we are going a bit off the deep end though. There's some ambiguity because they focused soley on giving us what we needed to make shadowruns happen. The book already had a big enough damage code, thus perhaps some things were left out or not fleshed out more. I'd really have liked to know more about the G-Men though. Maybe J Edgar Hoover will rise from his grave and pursue our Deckers.

Maybe in a manner similar to this:
Gozer: Choose! Choose the form of the Destructor!
Peter Venkman: Oh, I get it. Real cute! [to the others] Whatever we think of– if we think of J. Edgar Hoover, J. Edgar Hoover will appear and destroy us, okay? So empty your heads, don't think of anything. We've only got one shot at this.
Gozer: The choice is made!
Venkman: Whoa! Hold on!
Gozer: The Traveller has come!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I disagree. I think there are some very good in-story and mechanical reasons why no one would want to use the Public Grid for their high security hosts:
1) A major corp won't put their facilities on someone else's grid. They get to staff their own demiGOD on their own Grid, and you really don't want your high security host or devices on someone else's grid with someone you don't know having high level access to it. DemiGOD agents are considered to have owner like privileges on everything in their Grid, so that's a security issue. This is less of an issue inside Hosts, where demiGODs don't have access, but do monitor traffic (Overwatch Scores). It also doesn't apply to minor corps that don't have their own grids. I suspect they are on local grids, where they don't have demiGOD status.
2) More importantly: Public Grids are considered slow and weak, hence the -2 penalty, and that penalty applies inside hosts too. That means anyone working at your public grid connected facility will be taking a -2 penalty to everything they do Matrix wise. That's hurting your staff and your operation for a small penalty applied to hackers, but worse it's a penalty your corporate spiders and IC will also have to deal with (the host is on the public grid and -2 penalty applies to anything inside a host too... IC and Spiders are in your host and they take matrix actions, so -2 dice pools.)

Great, just what we need, a 200 foot tall J Edgar Hoover running amok on the Matrix.

I agree with the idea that a corporation certainly wouldn't put its host on a public grid for fluff reasons, and probably wouldn't for mechanical reasons. That said, it's troubling to me that non-Matrix users (like street samurai) with Matrix vulnerabilities (wireless guns, cyberware) would want to sign up for the public grid for better security.

If you NEVER intend to perform any Matrix actions, and your only presence on the Matrix is defensive, then the public grid is your friend. Your enemies take -2 if they're on a different grid or -2 if they're on the public grid. It's win-win for you. I think this was a rules oversight.

Anyway, besides those penalties, I don't see any reason to care about grids. Some other poster mentioned a failed test would trigger your Overwatch score, but the rules for Brute Force and Hacking on the Fly explicitly say the opposite. I'm sure an upcoming book plans to flesh them out, but now we could ignore them entirely and the rest of the Matrix game would be pretty much unaffected.