No, different rules. ANYTHING involving the Sleaze or Attack attributes on the Matrix, the new security protocols kick in immediately. You can run stuff off Data Processing and Firewall all you want, but the SECOND you do anything with the Sleaze or Attack attributes, you're on the clock. Every 15 minutes, you get 2d6 extra OS and so on leading to Convergence once it hits 40. It's one of the single nastiest things this edition does to hackers/deckers.

So...like Stealth tags which use Sleaze?

To be fair, there's a difference between having Sleaze and using Sleaze.

Just because a player finds and exploits a loophole in the rules doesn't mean they're taking a player vs GM stance. There could be lots of valid reasons why they're pulling this trick-- for example, a diversion. I'm already thinking about having my characters get more than one smartlink system, so the odds of being bricked are reduced. (As standard procedure, I always have characters buy extras of certain gear, like guns. You want to hack my Predator? I'm carrying three. Call me cheesy, and I'll bean you with 24 years of Shadowrun character sheets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

You call it cheesy, I call it redundancy. There's a reason systems have them.

I call it common sense. I always buy extras of everything I can, and keep them stashed somewhere so if my gear is taken, I have backups. In the case of gun bunnies, I've been known to carry multiple guns, each loaded with different specialty ammo depending on my need. Even my non-gun bunnies carry more than one pistol on them.

So, in SR5, if someone wants to brick my gun, they've only got a one in three chance of finding the right one. Going nuts with stealth tags is the same trick, just magnified. You don't need 50 tags when 5 will do, though.

Turns out, you don't need B/R skills for this.

p. 421: Throwbacks



Of course that makes you loose the Wireless Bonus, but hey, it's rather secure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ah missed that, thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I don't mind the wire myself, I can always switch off. However I figure there will be those who want it ripped out entirely and a little paywork on the side is never a bad thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Redundancy is one thing. That's just playing smart. But the 50 stealth tags trick is purely just exploiting a rules loophole to get around a weakness of a character design that was specifically put in place for balance. Or as it's more commonly known, being a munchkin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

It hardly counts as being Munchkin when it is an action that sees totally plausible within the framework of the matrix as presented within the setting. And since every Stealth tag is now apparently generating Overwatch Score every time someone looks for it, how does GOD get anything done when they spend all their time acknowledging alarms generated when people look at a Stealth Tag?

Being a munchkin is doing it in such a way as to suck the fun out of the game for everyone but the munchkin. What you're describing is power plays, which is fine.

You gotta admit, it's a viable tactic for shadowrunners: seed lots and lots of stealth tags around a facility to confuse the security deckers. It's a cheap and effective diversion. If I ever get to play in a Shadowrun game, I'll have my character do a free hot dog giveaway, each dog loaded with stealth tags. While the security deckers are busy sorting everything out, I'll waltz in and do what I need to do.

Is that a power play? Most definitely. But more importantly, will it make for a fun game? Since the answer is also yes, it's not a munchkin move.

Plus if its a run on Azzie property and you had stolen those same hot dogs from another Azzie facility to feed to those guards, its just double delicious (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As I understand it, you start getting OS for using Wrapper on the Stealth tags, not the tags themselves. Which makes sense from my POV.

Stuff like Wrapper should only be used for short periods of time, otherwise it would be one of the things you would expect from every self-respecting NPC and then you would end up rolling so much Matrix Perception it would not be fun anymore.

It is mighty powerful on short notice, precisely because it is not the thing you expect. Kind of like Mask, which stops working when go want to go through a ward or Nanite Cream, which... Wait, where is nanite cream?!? The complete game changes without this. Where did it go?

Has anyone seen Nanite Cream?

Wrapper doesn't generate an OS score at all. Wrapper itself allows you change Icons to non-standard looks, but the action you take to do that is Change Icon, which is not a Sleaze or Attack action. Note that the icons only remain in an illegal look while Wrapper is running. If you close Wrapper, the icons will apparently change back.

Also, Stealth RFID tags don't generate OS scores because they don't take matrix actions. Just having a Sleaze score on a device or icon isn't an issue. All Decks, and Hosts, have sleaze. More over, running in silent mode isn't an OS generating action, and any device can do it... it's just that they aren't very good at it without sleaze. A normal RFID tag in silent mode would have 1 die to resist being spotted (Device 1 + 0 Sleaze) with a matrix perception test. A stealth tag has 6 dice (Device 3 + Sleaze 3).

Maybe because I want the +2 dice from it's smartlink. I guess technically the smartlink is active...in fact it think that is the case with most weapons. The accessories are active not the weapon itself (Tasers being the notable exception). With that in mind it is probably better for a decker to hack the smartlink and drop the magazine rather than brick the smartlink. bricking the link means the gun can still fire w/o the bonus. Dropping the magazine means you have to reload first, and the decker can rinse and repeat.
I like the jammer idea however. It will eliminated cheap low device rating static from a deckers search.

Guns get wireless boni as well. You can brick 'em smartlink or no.

to elaborate on what blackjaw said:

"The moment
you perform an illegal action (Attack or Sleaze), you get
an Overwatch Score"

"The list of illegal actions is pretty simple: all
Attack and Sleaze actions are illegal."

"Every Matrix action is categorized according to the
Matrix attribute they fall under. ... The Matrix attribute for an action
serves as the limit for tests tied to that action."

in short: if it doesn't use the attribute as a limit, it's not an [attribute] action. defending against a matrix perception test while hidden is a logic + sleaze test with no limit. therefore, defending against a matrix perception test is not a sleaze action (or, for that matter, any sort of action at all really). since it is not an attack or sleaze action, it is not an illegal action. since it is not an illegal action, you don't start generating oversight.

and yeah, unless you shut off the wireless, all guns are wireless enabled by default, whether they have a wireless bonus or not.

I did like the quote about a decker could still manually plug into your weapon to hack it, but if he is that close you have bigger problems. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Can you post a link to the thread?

How long is it fun though? Assuming it works, the GM allows it. It becomes your team's standard mode of operation. Heck, it becomes every shadowrunner team's SOP. It doesn't seem like something that would remain fun long. Any more than it'd be fun if I had every NPC the players approach immediately surrender. It does appear like it would work, barring some kind of GM intervention or ruling. As noted, the stealth tags don't cause OS.

Assuming they've thought of, heard of, or run across this tactic before, how can security managers and spiders respond? Some kind of screening perhaps that sorts such out automatically?

Purposely having several pistols seems completely legitimate though. It's what nearly anyone would do and doesn't break the game in the same manner.

I don't think the pocket full of stealth RFIDs is actually all that great a of a tactic. It only works if the Security Spider or enemy decker your up against has no idea what they are looking for. If they are just wondering "hey are there any hidden icons around?" and see 100 show up, they will know something is up. If they know where you are, and that you have a gun in your hand, they can actually look for the hidden gun icon specifically. Worse, once they spot any one of the tags, if it's within 100 meters, they have a general idea of where it is because device icons, unlike personas, stick to their physical location in the matrix. If they get two marks on it (easy vs an RFID) they can even trace it and know where it is anywhere it goes on the planet as long as the marks remain. A pocket full of RFID tags isn't cheese, it's a serious liability. Using wrapper to make them look like something more interesting might extend the amount of time it takes the security spider to realize it's not worth bricking, but he's likely to use it to locate you before trying to damage or hack it further.

Now add in that Radio Signal Scanner sensor systems aren't that uncommon, and walking around with a bunch of stealth RFIDs is a really bad idea on a run as it's likely to announce "Hey there is something going on in here" the second you come near a security sensor. It's the same reason Shadowrunners have been burning all the RFIDs out of their gear, clothing, and food since 4th edition.

It does, however, have some possible uses for a distraction. If you think you're going to get caught in a facility anyway, placing some decoy tags in a room you aren't in is a good way to distract a Spider for a few actions, especially if they don't look like RFID tags thanks to a wrapper. The idea of tagging a bunch of vermin, and releasing them into a complex would work well, for example, as does using a Skimmer drone with wrapper running in order to make it look like an active Chameleon Suit. It's not cheese, it's a valid decoy/distraction tactic. Hell, 4th edition had multiple "distraction drones" designed to this kind of thing. It's the matrix equivalent of setting of charges on the side of the building you aren't trying to break into. Using it keeps the security forces from knowing where to look, but (because everything has it's price) it does tell the security team that they are under attack... which is often a bad thing even if they don't know where to respond to. Suddenly the doors in high value areas are locked down, security drones are activated, guards start paying more attention, etc.

Radio Signal Scanners are a cheap enough security sensor. If your employees walk past one as they enter or leave the building, it will spot the RFID chips on them, and once a chip is spotted, it remains that way unless it takes a Hide matrix action. In short, if a bunch of your employees walk in from lunch with Stealth RFID tags in their stomach, security will see it immediately. Stealth RFID tags in the stomach might not even raise eyebrows, but if the tags are under a Wrapper effect so they look like guns, B&E gear, etc... it would certainly get a response from the security guards, but they'll be catching it at the front door, not running all over the inside of the building looking for the tags.

Thanks Blackjaw, that is helpful. Often just knowing there is a need to lock a facility down is a big advantage to Corpsec.

So, since coming up with the idea I have spend the rest of the time thinking about how to defeat it. Truthfully I had hoped this defense would only be a way to stall a decker for an IP or two, the matrix equivalent of taking cover in a gun fight.

So here is how I see this defense going down: The decker does a matrix perception check to find hidden icons, stealth tags are immediately obvious if they don't have the wrapper program on them. The decker then uses the net hits from the matrix perception to randomly pick hidden icons and find out what they really are. As a measure against abusing this defense, I am thinking there should be a limit on the Wrapper program of Rating x 2 (maybe 3).

Scenario: Decker and his crew end up in a fire fight with some gangers, whose leader is a chromed out novacoke-head.

Decker: I guess the best thing I can do is some combat hacking. I will try to brick the leader's cybereyes.

GM: Okay. Checking the local area you don't see any icons within the range that might be the leader's.

Decker: He must be running silent. I will do a Matrix Perception to spot the hidden icons within 100m. I got 4 successes.

GM: Okay you see 12 icons that correspond to the leader.

Decker: Already I will do a spot on the icon for his cybereyes.

GM: There isn't one, they all appear to be icons for the 2046 simsense remake of Debbie Does Dallas.

Decker: Well... I guess he is using Wrapper. Okay I had 3 net successes on my perception. Tell me what icons 2, 5 and 7 are.

GM: That would be 2 stealth RFID tags and an AK-97.

Decker: Was hoping for the cybereyes, but AK-97 will do. Spot check on the AK.

Alternatively I was thinking of having an opposed test of Computer + Intuition v Logic + Sleaze of the device running Wrapper see past the program. Either way the defense makes it such that deckers either can only target a random piece of your equipment or take some extra time to thoroughly scan your equipment first.

err... each of those spot checks is an action. you're looking at a few iniative passes worth of work just in the spotting so far, i think.

No. You can use your hits from a Matrix Perception check to ask the GM for pieces of information. One of the suggestions is:

The type of icon (host, persona, device, file), if it is using a
non-standard (or even illegal) look.

So if you do a matrix perception check and get 4 hits, the first hit you can ask if there are any hidden icons. The other three can be used to ask what the device actually is if the Wrapper program is being used.