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WorkOver
post Jul 25 2013, 08:08 AM
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I am not sure that I am seeing this. IS this the first edition where burst fire from a machine gun doesn't increase the damage directly? I know that buy reducing the amount they can defend, your net hits will increase the damage, but wow. No more damage bonus from full auto?

Do you no longer subtract 1/2 the lowest essence loss from cyber or bi, and use that for the total essence loss? If you just use straight essence, that's a serious nerf.
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Slide
post Jul 25 2013, 08:12 AM
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Check, and check.

Buttt... Guns have higher starting damage codes (as does everything else). As far as the cyber/bio thing goes.... I'll have to play with it a bit, but so far I feel that I can make street sams comprable to adepts so i'm not supper worried about it.
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ElFenrir
post Jul 25 2013, 08:26 AM
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I've done some pretty heavy adept vs. sam testing so far, and am still going.

You can make some very good sams, but you are essentially saddled with A or B resources. (I DID make a Merc on Resources C, but he had the bare bones of Muscle Replacement 2, Wired 1 and Aluminum Bone lacing, none of it Alphaware, and I had to take +20k nuyen with Bonus karma.)

I do find some of the new prices ridiculously overpriced(Muscle Aug and Toner, IMO, should add up to no more than 45k per level like the old days, and even THEN that's a lot compared to how much money you get, Muscle Replacement shouldn't be more than 20k, and for houserules I'm considering dropping Wired Reflexes to 25k/100k/215k(the latter just to make it even), and possibly dropping their Essence down to the levels that Adepts have to pay(especially with the 'budget sam' Boosted Reflexes having gone out the window after 3e). That being said, I find the Synaptic Boosters appropriately priced for the boost in Nuyen people get. I think Pheremones and the Cerebral Booster are overpriced by about 10k each.

(On the other hand and the bright side, Bone Density, Orthoskin and Dermal Plating went down, as did higher levels of Bone Lacing, which is a plus and pretty cool, Skillwires are 20k/level which actually isn't terrible either, and there are reasonably priced odds and ends, but the stuff that's overpriced runs from slightly to very much so, IMO. On the other bright side...it's not THAT many pieces, IMO, that are overpriced, just a handful that stick out like a sore thumb next to what is generally pretty good prices.)Cyberlimbs are also actually very affordable and very good.
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Slide
post Jul 25 2013, 08:59 AM
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I'm overall against reducing the ess cost of Wired reflexes for two reasons. If you want lower ess cost go with synaptic accelerators. if you want the highest possible bonus to reflexes for stupid high amounts of essc go with wired and reflex enhancement. Thats the trade off.

Bone lacing is amazing. I did a post some where comparing cost and benefits of sams vs adepts.
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WorkOver
post Jul 25 2013, 08:59 AM
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I like the prices on most cyber, and one of the few (maybe 3) house rules we use is the cyberlimbs have stats equal to the user. I can see strenth (sort of) being uneven, but agility, wow.

As for the burst fire change, I am sad. Oh well.

The cyber thing though, whoa. That sucks LOL! Since Bio came out with Bio index, there has been a way to get both, now, finito!
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Critias
post Jul 25 2013, 09:04 AM
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I think when you look at the changes to Alpha/Beta/Delta grade 'ware, you'll see that over time there's not much of an Essence loss to players, really (in my experience it's actually been the other way around, where most folks are able to cram in more stuff over their career).

YMMV as always, and I do wish we'd been able to adjust a few Essence costs directly...but I think it works out okay.
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ElFenrir
post Jul 25 2013, 09:10 AM
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QUOTE (Slide @ Jul 25 2013, 03:59 AM) *
I'm overall against reducing the ess cost of Wired reflexes for two reasons. If you want lower ess cost go with synaptic accelerators. if you want the highest possible bonus to reflexes for stupid high amounts of essc go with wired and reflex enhancement. Thats the trade off.

Bone lacing is amazing. I did a post some where comparing cost and benefits of sams vs adepts.



I have to play with the rule, myself-testing to see if I really wanted to. What I'd *probably* consider in the end is either A. Keep the price, lower the Essence cost, but keep them as is(can't stack with Enhancers unless Wireless) or B. Lower the price, keep the Essence cost, but do some tweaking to allow them to work with Reaction Enhancers(granting a bigger bonus for wireless.) I just feel that they can afford to be a *little* better than they are after their nerf in working with Enhancers, but I don't think, now that I look at it, I'd do 'all of the above.' (And Crit, that is a good point about the cheaper better grade ware, that could help the Essence cost more than I think.)

I dunno why I have so many issues with the other prices, but I think it's my brain trying to adjust for nuyen. In the old days, when you capped at 1 million, Muscle Replacement was 20k/level, and Augmentation equalled 45k/level if you got both stats. Now you have less than half that, and they're more expensive, it just doesn't *feel* right to me overall, which is why I'm adjusting it. Not a TON, but just enough. I'd be willing to be content with leaving Wired as is after doing some lookovers IRT the Beta and Delta grade stuff, however.

EDIT: I do want to add that my wishing to change some stuff for the better isn't done out of some sorta 'cyberbias'-indeed, since about halfway through 4e, I shifted more over to the magic side. I was more of a 'Sam4Life' type in 2e/3e(with a side of Merc), but my tastes changed a bit over the years. THAT said, I do still have enough of the Sam in me to have some concern for the cyber side of things as well.
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Critias
post Jul 25 2013, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 25 2013, 03:10 AM) *
I dunno why I have so many issues with the other prices, but I think it's my brain trying to adjust for nuyen. In the old days, when you capped at 1 million, Muscle Replacement was 20k/level, and Augmentation equalled 45k/level if you got both stats. Now you have less than half that, and they're more expensive, it just doesn't *feel* right to me overall...

You're not alone there, for what it's worth.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 25 2013, 01:45 PM
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I would really like to know what the hell happened to the prices for Skillwires, personally. Rating 6 Wires at 120,000 Nuyen is stupid expensive, and the requirements for the Skilljack is also dumb (And WAY overpriced, Rating 6 Skilljack (to go with the Wires) is another 120,000 Nuyen). Yes, costs of the actual skill chips went down a bit, but why were the systems themselves adjusted so dramatically? And why the requirement for the skilljack, now? Storage space is virtually unlimited, but I now require a JACK to run an ACTIVE skill now, rather than storing them in the wires like in SR4A? Just dumb.
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Bigity
post Jul 25 2013, 01:50 PM
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Doesn't seem to jive with the idea that a corp slapping wires in a worker bee is cheaper than training some faceless mook on how to put something together.
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Sendaz
post Jul 25 2013, 03:07 PM
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Wait, if you have to get a Jack for this, where am I gonna get my wireless bonus from with that skillwire? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Moirdryd
post Jul 25 2013, 04:14 PM
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It was only in SR4 that the wires didn't require a Jack, so I have no real issue there.
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jul 25 2013, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Jul 25 2013, 09:04 AM) *
YMMV as always, and I do wish we'd been able to adjust a few Essence costs directly...but I think it works out okay.


For those of us interested in fine tuning the play experience of our players, it would be very useful to us for you to share some of your insight in where me might best apply that fine tuning, with respect to essence costs.

My concern is that while I have some kneejerk considerations for essence costs, I'm concerned about unintended consequences of modifying what I believe was a heavily play tested system.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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ElFenrir
post Jul 25 2013, 04:44 PM
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The main thing that's my only concern with Essence costs(not so much price, since the stuff I'd mostly be lowering is Bioware, and then not even an enormous amount, just enough to 'matter' but not enough to 'matter too much') is the lowering of how much Beta and Delta grade ware costs, and making them actually available to people. Delta clinics(I suppose people's versions of Seattle may vary here) don't seem to be as completely out there anymore; while not *common* they don't strike me as *impossible.*

So with them easier-and cheaper-to get, it's my only holdoff. Now that I look at it, Delta Grade Wired Reflexes run 1/1.5/2.5, actually making them *better* cost wise than the Adept power. Of course, you need to get some of them.

Yeah, I think I'm alright with Essence costs, looking at them, I just have more problem with the monetary costs(and even then, it's more just a case of shaving 5k-10k off select pieces and they look a lot better to me.)

FWIW, one thing I did lower the price on-which isn't even ware-are fake SINs. They used to be 1k/level. Now we get not quite double the nuyen, but they increased beyond double. I put them at 1.5k/level. Errs in the side of the player, but people burn them enough that I feel 1.5l/level is fine for them.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 25 2013, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 25 2013, 10:14 AM) *
It was only in SR4 that the wires didn't require a Jack, so I have no real issue there.


There were other ways to go about it (The Skillsoft jukebox is a good example) and they did not cost stupid amounts of Nuyen, either.
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Remnar
post Jul 25 2013, 06:41 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 25 2013, 09:38 AM) *
There were other ways to go about it (The Skillsoft jukebox is a good example) and they did not cost stupid amounts of Nuyen, either.


Yep, I usually ran a chip jack (1), datajack, and jukebox plugged into both. Allowed me to switch skillsofts via mental commands, didn't cost a ton of essense or nuyen. I also tended to run those characters with several datajacks though, so I'd have one installed in a convienent place for the wires to work (along the spine or something) well with the jukebox on the belt.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 25 2013, 09:07 PM
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QUOTE (Remnar @ Jul 25 2013, 12:41 PM) *
Yep, I usually ran a chip jack (1), datajack, and jukebox plugged into both. Allowed me to switch skillsofts via mental commands, didn't cost a ton of essense or nuyen. I also tended to run those characters with several datajacks though, so I'd have one installed in a convienent place for the wires to work (along the spine or something) well with the jukebox on the belt.


Indeed, we are on the same page.
In SR4, Downloading them to internal storage worked well, too. I had no real problems with them. Cost of the skills was atrocious, but not too horrible if you used a service.
Still not sure why that approach would not work, personally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Psikerlord
post Jul 25 2013, 10:17 PM
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i love skill wires now. from outset a sam can get rating 4 skillwires (used). that is some serious utility! every 20k u can buy yourself a new rating 4 skill.... yes please!
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binarywraith
post Jul 25 2013, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE (Remnar @ Jul 25 2013, 01:41 PM) *
Yep, I usually ran a chip jack (1), datajack, and jukebox plugged into both. Allowed me to switch skillsofts via mental commands, didn't cost a ton of essense or nuyen. I also tended to run those characters with several datajacks though, so I'd have one installed in a convienent place for the wires to work (along the spine or something) well with the jukebox on the belt.


I always kept the jukebox inside a compartment of a cyberarm, with an internal datajack for it.

Kept people from noticing that I was using it most of the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 26 2013, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (Psikerlord @ Jul 25 2013, 03:17 PM) *
i love skill wires now. from outset a sam can get rating 4 skillwires (used). that is some serious utility! every 20k u can buy yourself a new rating 4 skill.... yes please!


The problem is that you are paying 160,000 Nuyen (Rating 4 Wires and Jack) New or 120,000 Used. That is just stupid expensive. Especially for something that the Corps use to circumvent actual training of their work force. SO much for that idea in SR5. Looks like someone did not read that section of the world setting. *sigh*
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 26 2013, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 25 2013, 04:00 PM) *
I always kept the jukebox inside a compartment of a cyberarm, with an internal datajack for it.

Kept people from noticing that I was using it most of the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Also a great option.
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jul 26 2013, 07:01 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 26 2013, 01:34 AM) *
The problem is that you are paying 160,000 Nuyen (Rating 4 Wires and Jack) New or 120,000 Used. That is just stupid expensive. Especially for something that the Corps use to circumvent actual training of their work force. SO much for that idea in SR5. Looks like someone did not read that section of the world setting. *sigh*


Corps don't pay full retail. They just pay the production cost.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 26 2013, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 26 2013, 01:01 PM) *
Corps don't pay full retail. They just pay the production cost.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


Irregardless... It is still a stupid high price point.

Even in SR4A, which is verifiably superior ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), The Wires themselves only ran about 2,000 Nuyen per Rating Point, which is still significant. Add on an Expert System and a Datajack and you were seriously involved in Skillware. And even THEN, Skillwires were a rare build at my table. I can only remember a few characters over the years that actually used Skillsofts in any serious way (and most of them were a result of MBW's, rather then the SW's). Part of that was that the softs themselves were so outrageous (which could be solved by making them cheaper, or subscribing to a Service).
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Wired_SR_AEGIS
post Jul 26 2013, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 26 2013, 07:21 PM) *
Irregardless... It is still a stupid high price point.


I'll have to really take a hard look at it before I draw a conclusion.

My kneejerk analysis is that it seems like Mundane characters shouldn't have a problem implementing it into their starting builds, but Awakened Characters will...

...which I am largely okay with.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
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Jaid
post Jul 26 2013, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (Wired_SR_AEGIS @ Jul 26 2013, 02:01 PM) *
Corps don't pay full retail. They just pay the production cost.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS


if it costs 2,000 nuyen to make it, and you're selling it for 20,000... it won't be long before your competitor decides to sell that same system for 19,000. at which point you (or yet another competitor) will decide to sell it for less, and so on and so forth, until you reach a point where it is actually at a reasonable price relative to it's cost.

particularly since as you reduce the price, more people will buy it.

for a device that is supposed to be so common that they mass produce it and install it into hundreds of thousands or even millions of people for use in the work force means that it really shouldn't be very expensive.

it's supposed to be a replacement for training your workers... if it costs 3 times as much as the education and training of that worker, it makes no sense.
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