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post Sep 8 2013, 09:02 AM
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I've heard of the ends of the matrix, but haven't read it yet. Does it make hacking faster and simpler? If not are there any house rulesets for shadowrun 4e that make it so?
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Udoshi
post Sep 8 2013, 10:48 AM
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Use an online dice roller, and know what you're rolling commonly AHEAD of time. (system, firewall, analyze, response)

and know the rules inside and out.

Then realize its far easier to use a fast and loose objective/goal based matrix than ZA RULES. Ie "i want to do X, okay roll this or that or what not" instead of "Durr, uh, lemme find the unwired page for that."

I was blessed with a gm familiar enough with the rules to run hacking concurrent with realspace action at no delay to the game.

Eliminating the Pizza Minigame is doable.

Ends of the matrix isn't end all be all, and its up to the neck full of trollman's full of himself attitude. There's a few good things in there, though.


The matrix i ran in was still pretty by-the-book, and worked pretty well.
Technomancers were changed to be more in line with hackers, both in terms of cost and effectiveness. (no more stealth 12 shenanigans)
the Piracy Loophole was closed with Missions Standards patches due to a general agreement of Fuck SOTA Rolls - i was generally available as an easy option for non-hackers.
Coding your own software was managable. Software shops counted as programming environments, but with only half the dice pool bonus
Infinite Loop gimmick networking was flat-out forbidden.

Non-houserules that were the glue that held it together:
Alerts stripped user rights(unwired)
The OS resists Hacking changes with software+Firewall, making it harder to do things if you don't have the right access. (this may or may not be a holdover from 4th edition, where the game started in, i'm away from books and can't doublecheck a pageref.)
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post Sep 8 2013, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 8 2013, 12:48 PM) *
Use an online dice roller, and know what you're rolling commonly AHEAD of time. (system, firewall, analyze, response)

and know the rules inside and out.

Then realize its far easier to use a fast and loose objective/goal based matrix than ZA RULES. Ie "i want to do X, okay roll this or that or what not" instead of "Durr, uh, lemme find the unwired page for that."

I was blessed with a gm familiar enough with the rules to run hacking concurrent with realspace action at no delay to the game.

Eliminating the Pizza Minigame is doable.

Ends of the matrix isn't end all be all, and its up to the neck full of trollman's full of himself attitude. There's a few good things in there, though.


The matrix i ran in was still pretty by-the-book, and worked pretty well.
Technomancers were changed to be more in line with hackers, both in terms of cost and effectiveness. (no more stealth 12 shenanigans)
the Piracy Loophole was closed with Missions Standards patches due to a general agreement of Fuck SOTA Rolls - i was generally available as an easy option for non-hackers.
Coding your own software was managable. Software shops counted as programming environments, but with only half the dice pool bonus
Infinite Loop gimmick networking was flat-out forbidden.

Non-houserules that were the glue that held it together:
Alerts stripped user rights(unwired)
The OS resists Hacking changes with software+Firewall, making it harder to do things if you don't have the right access. (this may or may not be a holdover from 4th edition, where the game started in, i'm away from books and can't doublecheck a pageref.)

Well your house rules made the system better but didn't exactly make it any faster or simpler. Still should I use ends of the matrix? You said that it has some good things in it, so does it also have some bad changes? Would like an experts opinion because this is the first time ill gm shadowrun and the first time ill gm at all, so I'm not every experienced at it and what looks good on paper could be horrible in actual gameplay. Also why use an online dice roller?
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RHat
post Sep 8 2013, 08:29 PM
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One option is to use something like SR5's system - opposed rolls on Complex actions rather than Extended tests, dramatically reducing the amount of time things take.
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grid.samurai
post Sep 8 2013, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 8 2013, 03:48 AM) *
know the rules inside and out.

Then realize its far easier to use a fast and loose objective/goal based matrix than ZA RULES. Ie "i want to do X, okay roll this or that or what not" instead of "Durr, uh, lemme find the unwired page for that."

I was blessed with a gm familiar enough with the rules to run hacking concurrent with realspace action at no delay to the game.


This.

This is the easiest way to make things fastest and eliminates the need for making things simpler. In my opinion, simplifying the Matrix rules is just detracting from the game the way a decker or technomancer probably wouldn't want you to. One must remember that those players probably read every bit of the Matrix/TM sections of the rulebooks and are counting on a GM to run the game according to those rules.

When I first started GMing Shadowrun, I remembered not allowing deckers in the runner party out of sheer fear of having to know a bunch of additional rules. That was silliness. I can appreciate that now. I'd encourage any GM a little nervous about running hacking runs/scenarios, to take a bit of time. Read through the rules completely. Then either copy and paste the notes into a cheat sheet or take a few notes in a notebook. It wont take long until they are proficient about running things quickly; Matrix and Meat - side by side.
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post Sep 9 2013, 07:41 AM
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QUOTE (grid.samurai @ Sep 8 2013, 10:39 PM) *
This.

This is the easiest way to make things fastest and eliminates the need for making things simpler. In my opinion, simplifying the Matrix rules is just detracting from the game the way a decker or technomancer probably wouldn't want you to. One must remember that those players probably read every bit of the Matrix/TM sections of the rulebooks and are counting on a GM to run the game according to those rules.

When I first started GMing Shadowrun, I remembered not allowing deckers in the runner party out of sheer fear of having to know a bunch of additional rules. That was silliness. I can appreciate that now. I'd encourage any GM a little nervous about running hacking runs/scenarios, to take a bit of time. Read through the rules completely. Then either copy and paste the notes into a cheat sheet or take a few notes in a notebook. It wont take long until they are proficient about running things quickly; Matrix and Meat - side by side.

So, I guess what all of you guys are saying is that the original is the best but I should know it inside and out. Ok I guess ill stick to the original and id better start reading now. Thanks for all the help btw
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Udoshi
post Sep 9 2013, 07:57 AM
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Read the first 90 pages of unwired. It solves a lot of basic shit with the the system, what if this happens, and conceptual aids to understand how its put together.

Things like how to go above the subscription limit, and making alerts matter.

Also, in general, its best to know the basic system BEFORE houseruling it.

QUOTE (Xtreme Newbie @ Sep 8 2013, 11:59 AM) *
You said that it has some good things in it, so does it also have some bad changes?

I mostly like the things his unrelated house rules address, if not their specific implimentation.
his new paragons are amusing, and easily retro-adapted.
Combining Maneuver and Defense autosofts is interesting. After all, if you know how to move, you know how to dodge.


Oh!
Right!
THAT'S what I was going to suggest.
There actually is an alternate matrix system in the Shadowrun 2050 SR4 sourcebook. It may be easier/better to use that, and just slap wireless onto it.
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RHat
post Sep 9 2013, 07:58 AM
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QUOTE (Xtreme Newbie @ Sep 9 2013, 12:41 AM) *
So, I guess what all of you guys are saying is that the original is the best but I should know it inside and out. Ok I guess ill stick to the original and id better start reading now. Thanks for all the help btw


Better plan might be to take it slow - Unwired adds a LOT, but you can get started into running Matrix stuff without it. Read through SR4A's Matrix section, make a little cheat sheet to work with, and start with just that. Add elements from Unwired slowly as you're comfortable with the existing rules.
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Blade
post Sep 9 2013, 09:42 AM
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"The Ends of the Matrix" make the Matrix completely different. It also has huge impact on the rest of the world. Basically it turns the hacker into a mage with spells that can affect people and technological equipment.

As for other houserules to make hacking simpler and easier, one good thing to keep in mind is that you don't necessarily have to turn every hack into a dice rolling fest. Just like you can sometimes solve a whole discussion with only one social skill check (because it's not something very important and not something you want to spend too long on), you can just solve a hack with a simple logic+hacking (or hacking+exploit) test, using the target's firewall as the threshold.
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post Sep 9 2013, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 9 2013, 11:42 AM) *
"The Ends of the Matrix" make the Matrix completely different. It also has huge impact on the rest of the world. Basically it turns the hacker into a mage with spells that can affect people and technological equipment.

How exactly do you effect people and technological equipment? Can you brick cyberlimbs that have their wireless turned on? Can you f*ck up a smartgun system that links to its user wirelessly? If that is the case I like it even more.
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Blade
post Sep 9 2013, 10:04 AM
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Basically you have spell-like abilities. You use them the way you cast a spell, and apply their effects. It also considers that a hacker's wireless signals can mess with brain waves, which can lead to brain hacking.

I don't recall the details, so I don't know if the cases you've mentioned are covered, but I'd say they probably are.

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RHat
post Sep 9 2013, 10:16 AM
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QUOTE (Xtreme Newbie @ Sep 9 2013, 03:58 AM) *
How exactly do you effect people and technological equipment? Can you brick cyberlimbs that have their wireless turned on? Can you f*ck up a smartgun system that links to its user wirelessly? If that is the case I like it even more.


You hack their brain, from what I understand.
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Nath
post Sep 9 2013, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE (Xtreme Newbie @ Sep 9 2013, 11:58 AM) *
Can you brick cyberlimbs that have their wireless turned on? Can you f*ck up a smartgun system that links to its user wirelessly? If that is the case I like it even more.
This is equally possible with the 4th edition rules. Unwired even specifically addresses it (page 102-103). It's only made difficult by the mutual signal range, which for cyberware means 3 meters.

Unwired also introduced "slaving," so that you get protect all your gear with the higher Firewall rating of a comlink. It also made them more vulnerable, as it greatly extended the mutual signal range or even connected to the Matrix, and allowed to hack all of the slaved gear at once.

A lot of people didn't like the idea, so they specifically houseruled that cyberware never has the wireless turned on outside maintenance operations. Otherwise, the only thing that really gets in the way is the time required to detect hidden node, succeed at a hack on the fly extended test and finally do something, which are issues for hacking at large, and not just cyberware.

So any houserule that solves these issues ought to make it possible (unless it specifically rules out cyberware hacking as well). If it still uses standard Signal and mutual signal range rules, you may just need to introduce a way to bypass the mutual signal range requirement when ware is not slaved. If I was to, I think I'd introduce a hard or software "signal booster" that adds +1 to your target's Signal rating if it's below the booster rating, for the sole purpose of determining mutual signal range, thus allowing to hack cyberware 40 meters away.
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post Sep 9 2013, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (RHat @ Sep 9 2013, 12:16 PM) *
You hack their brain, from what I understand.

How exactly? I mean do you make them blind do you manipulate them, what exactly can you do with it? To what extent can you "hack" a brain? Can you turn off all motor functions in the muscles? Or could you do much smaller damage like make them hallucinate or something like that?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 9 2013, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Nath @ Sep 9 2013, 04:19 AM) *
A lot of people didn't like the idea, so they specifically houseruled that cyberware never has the wireless turned on outside maintenance operations. Otherwise, the only thing that really gets in the way is the time required to detect hidden node, succeed at a hack on the fly extended test and finally do something, which are issues for hacking at large, and not just cyberware.


Was not a Houserule, Nath... It is an option, listed right there in the books. Just like Throwbacks exist in SR5. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Nath
post Sep 9 2013, 04:59 PM
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As far as I understand, the option given in Augmentation was to either have either wireless enabled, or have it entirely disabled/removed, and then requiring surgery for internal implant maintenance (or re-enabling wireless if you change your mind). That's not exactly the same as "wireless is on only during maintenance", which I had the impression it was the way a lot of people actually played it.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 9 2013, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Nath @ Sep 9 2013, 09:59 AM) *
As far as I understand, the option given in Augmentation was to either have either wireless enabled, or have it entirely disabled/removed, and then requiring surgery for internal implant maintenance (or re-enabling wireless if you change your mind). That's not exactly the same as "wireless is on only during maintenance", which I had the impression it was the way a lot of people actually played it.


You do not need wireless for diagnostics/Maintenance, though... Use a Data port and plug it in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Nath
post Sep 9 2013, 06:56 PM
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But that would be houseruling !!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It totally makes sense, but it's not mentioned anywhere in the rules.
QUOTE
Augmentations, page 31
Wireless functionality is complementary to direct neural control, allowing diagnostics checks, connection redundancy in case of damage to the neural relays, software/firmware updates, and non-invasive monitoring of the implant’s performance. Almost all cyberware requires careful maintenance and regular check ups, and wireless connectivity is invariably cheaper than cutting someone open just to check on an implant. See Wireless Connectivity, p. 304, SR4.
Since most implants are computerized to some extent anyway, integrating inexpensive wireless technology is the default option given its usefulness in case the character is ever unconscious, suffering from extreme trauma, or simply wants to have a non-invasive checkup.
Nonetheless, for the paranoid, it is relatively easy to have a street doc disable or remove wireless links. Note, however, that this makes care and maintenance more difficult. Besides requiring invasive surgical procedures for inspection and maintenance, the gamemaster may apply a –1 to –3 dice pool modifier to any relevant tests the cyberdoc performs. Note that some implants may not need a complete wireless link—built-in RFID sensor tags can monitor the implant and report any problems. The gamemaster determines what implants/devices incorporate wireless links.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 9 2013, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (Nath @ Sep 9 2013, 11:56 AM) *
But that would be houseruling !!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) It totally makes sense, but it's not mentioned anywhere in the rules.


Not really, since even your quote shows that gamemaster determine what has a wireless link and what does not. Wired diagnostics have been a thing since 1st Edition... all you needed was a Datajack to gain access to the DNI. Which has NEVER gone away. Wireless just made it easier, because then you would not NEED a Datajack. Just because you no longer NEED it does not mean that the functionality has gone away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Rules never mentioned that Trolls cannot fly, but that does not stop it from being true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Sendaz
post Sep 9 2013, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 9 2013, 03:42 PM) *
The Rules never mentioned that Trolls cannot fly, but that does not stop it from being true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry, but I beg to differ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not the rules part, but the being true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 9 2013, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE (Sendaz @ Sep 9 2013, 02:16 PM) *
Sorry, but I beg to differ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not the rules part, but the being true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
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Udoshi
post Sep 9 2013, 09:42 PM
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QUOTE (Xtreme Newbie @ Sep 9 2013, 08:25 AM) *
How exactly? I mean do you make them blind do you manipulate them, what exactly can you do with it? To what extent can you "hack" a brain? Can you turn off all motor functions in the muscles? Or could you do much smaller damage like make them hallucinate or something like that?


All functions of 'how exactly' are run on Trollman Logic and starwars references.
I mean, a program called 'jedi trick?' Come on, Really?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 9 2013, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 9 2013, 02:42 PM) *
All functions of 'how exactly' are run on Trollman Logic and starwars references.
I mean, a program called 'jedi trick?' Come on, Really?


Frank was/is....... somewhat unique. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
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Xtreme Newbie
post Sep 10 2013, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 9 2013, 11:42 PM) *
All functions of 'how exactly' are run on Trollman Logic and starwars references.
I mean, a program called 'jedi trick?' Come on, Really?

In my opinion that is not a bad thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . I don't mean how is it done or whats it called i want to know exactly what I can do with it? By your comment I guess I can jedi mind trick people but what else? That's what Im asking.
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post Sep 10 2013, 11:41 AM
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Also how can I catch my players? Also one of my players has a normal SIN. Can I catch him with facial recognition, fingerprints or gait recognition? Are they in the system? What other ways are there lonestar/ KE can use to catch my guys? And what can gangs use to catch my group?
P.S. One of my players doesn't think gait recognition is possible. Is it? I heard about it in the always recording thread and googled it and it said that it is possible but not everything you can find on the internet is true ofcourse. So is it true? If so does it say so in any shadowrun sourcebook? and if so i would like to know which book and page. Is it possible in real life?
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