even if a regular burst was a complex action, he could still aim as a simple then fire a single shot.

They are pretty much the answers I suspected and was expecting.

The first point really isn't logical with my initial reading of the recoil rules (more on that shortly).

The reason for multi-attacking a target is for a damage advantage, quite a large one I suspect though I haven't worked it out fully. I understand that it works how you said, it's just a weird abstraction for me. I suppose it's more 'bursting an area' than actually attacking twice. You'd think there would be a 'targets must be within x distance of each other' rule or something, but I haven't seen one.

I get the SA burst now. My initial though was if all SA weapons can burst, why not just add that fire mode to them instead of a different action but I'd missed that an SA burst was complex.





See now this, this is more like it. It's not how I read the rules first time though. I knew there was another interpretation but once you're read something one way it's hard to see it another. THIS rule I like, and it is sort of RAW even though not how I first interpreted it. It is however definitely what I'm going to use because it makes sense to me. Also, with this rule SA pistols make more sense (as in my first question, they could fire once a turn without penalty) and it makes the difference between simple and complex shooting actions more important, as with the SA vs normal burst above. It makes sense that 2 consecutive complex actions stack recoil. So this is the way I'm going to play it now, thanks! To word it better 'If a character spends their entire turn shooting (a complex action) then their recoil carries over to the next turn"

It is more elegant and makes sense with Remnar's way.

If however someone wants to stick to the first concept of reset only occurring from other than shooting for that entire action phase, I would suggest still allow the aim simple action to override that as it is an action specific to gathering oneself to make the next shot, and by default should be restabilizing the weapon in any case.

It is interesting, in that until Remnar said it, I would never have read it that way.

An Action Phase consists of a Free Action and two Simple Actions or One Complex Action. So, even if you fire a Semi-Auto Burst (a Complex Action), you are not really shooting for an "entire action phase."

If they wanted it to mean that you could avoid recoil by "SA shot/Aim, then Aim/SA shot" but NOT avoid recoil by "Aim/SA shot, then Aim/SA shot" then I think it should have been written differently than the way they did it. Something along the lines of "If you a non-firing Complex Action OR two consecutive Simple Actions, even ones that are in two different but consecutive Action Phases, then your progressive recoil resets."

I also disagree with allowing Sendaz's Aim/Shoot resets recoil - only in this regard:

If you read it as you have to SKIP an action phase in between shooting to reset progressive recoil, then if you want to be resetting your recoil between shots, you need to fire every other Action Phase:

Phase 1 Shoot
Phase 2 - any two simple or 1 complex non-shooting action
Phase 3 Shoot

If you read it as Remnar does, then you can shoot for 2 turns, skipping the third

Phase 1 Shoot then Aim
Phase 2 Aim then Shoot
Phase 3 Aim and Aim
Phase 4 Shoot and Aim
Keep on going

So there is some reduction in firepower either way (although less of one in the 2nd case.)

However, allowing you to Aim/Shoot ad-infinitum without taking a penalty not only allows you to never incur progressive recoil (as long as you are not taking a complex fire action), it also allows you to gain the benefit of the Take Aim action. I think it might be more palatable if you allowed the Take Aim action to be used to either do its normal function (add 1 die to the test, or add 1 to the accuracy, or allow you to use a scope OR reset the progressive recoil.)

I think that everyone is looking at this too closely (i.e not being able to see the forest through the trees). You need to look at this as a whole and remember that you only get one shot or burst per action phase. Therefore when they say "unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase," you need to ask 'have there been 2 standard or 1 complex action since the last time I fired?' If so, you are reset. If not, then keep on accumulating.

Which honestly makes no sense, since a SS gun cares not, and a SA gun firing a single shot per phase would accumulate per your description, if fired in each phase. When, in reality, we all know that there should be absolutely no difference between the two firing a single shot per phase. Again, it is a fail, on the designer's part, that this intolerable situation is even a thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

It makes perfect sense if you look at what you are firing. The definition of an SS gun is a single-action revolver, pump-action shotgun, bolt or lever-action rifle, or assault cannon. How many times can you cycle the bolt on a bolt-action rifle in 3 seconds? Now how fast can you pull the trigger on a SA rifle? That is the difference. I personally would rather see the SS being a one shot per combat turn instead of one shot every pass, but... *shrugs* And you can still get Recoil penalties with SS weapons if you are firing 2 of them in the same pass using the Multiple Attack Free Action.

It's not to do with how fast you 'can' pull the trigger though, it's how fast you 'are' pulling the trigger. If you're firing the same number of shots at the same rate then the recoil should be the same.

Personally though, I like the way Remnar read it and I'm just going to go with that. It makes much more sense, actually works and isn't confusing to track, and reduces the power of full auto somewhat without nerfing all prolonged gunfighting.

Whcih is completely irrelevant if you are firing a single shot from ANY of those types of guns. Which is the point. It does not matter that You CAN fire more often than a SS gun with other firing modes. The recoil is NO MORE than that SS gun for a Single Shot, irregardless of the potential firing mode. As such, a single shot from either type of action should function identically.

If you have 3 passes and you fire a SS gun in all 3 passes, then you generate no recoil. If you fire a SA (or guns CAPABLE of Burst Fire) gun in those same 3 passes, but only fire a single shot each pass, you generate recoil... I call BS. Again, it is an indicator that the designers have no concept of how guns work.

So, NO, it does not "make perfect sense" since it is fundamentally flawed from the very beginning. *shrug*

Yeah, I did the opposite. I read it as I described and didn't even consider an alternate interpretation until I saw it argued on Dumpshock. Shows that it's obviously not a very clear passage. I guess until we get an errata (or maybe clarification from Bull for Missions) we'll all have to go with how the GM reads it.

Granted, I doubt I'll ever actually get to play again, so its pretty moot for me.

" an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase"

Hm well I actually read something along the line of: "until you do something else than shooting the whole phase long"

Which made sense to me, in regards of limiting attacks that use a complex action (i.e. SA Bursts or fullauto, as they are very exhausting). Should the developers really mean, that a whole actionphase, with a complex actions worth has to be spent on manicure, to reduce recoil, they simply would have failed again.

Logically an aim action would work too since you are riding recoil, bringing sites onto target and then aiming before firing again, which would imply reoil resetting. As opposed to just ripping off round after round.

Then again, logic doesn't always (or even usually) apply.

If it would be a "forced" shooting pause of one full action phase, it would be two aim actions. While aiming is nice and all... this recoil rule still lacks logic. One aiming action should suffice and a single shot from a heavy pistol, should be a single shot, from a heavy pistol.

Remember you get to ignore the first bullet in a phase, so SA weapons fired once per phase don't build recoil.

What I think would work here would be a 'Steady' simple action -- an action that does nothing but drop something like (Strength) uncompensated recoil.

So you fire a complex burst with your Ingram, you've got Str 4 (for 2 RC) and the Ingram has RC 2. The complex burst imposes 5 recoil, leaving you with 1 uncompensated recoil.

You fire a second complex burst next phase, leaving you with 6 uncompensated recoil.

On your next action phase, you spend one simple action to Steady, dropping the uncompensated recoil down to 2. You spend your second simple action to fire a simple burst, bringing the uncompensated recoil back up to 4.

Next phase, you spend another action on Steady, dropping uncompensated recoil to 0. Your second simple action is another simple burst, pushing it back up to 2.

And so on and so forth.

Then, if you ever go a full action phase with no shooting, you reset all recoil and start over.

Not any more

I keep coming back to this point on these forums. People seem to get to obsessed with realism with this game. You are exactly right Tymeaus, it shouldn't work any differently if you think logically about it, but the fact is that logic isn't what drives this ruleset. The rules provide you with 2 options:

1) Use a revolver and ignore recoil (more or less) a good option for dual wielding pistols (which is usually a bad option anyway), or people who just can't be bothered managing it.
2) Use a SA pistol and get another tactical option of the complex 'burst' fire.

As Shadowrun has no jam mechanics for guns, this is in place to make revolvers a viable choice.

On a more general point, I don't think [aim/Shoot] [aim/shoot] should reset recoil. There isn't a complex or 2 consecutive simple actions spent not shooting in this scenario. In my mind for it to work it would need to be

[Shoot/scratch balls] [aim/shoot]. In this scenario the 2 simple actions are consecutive.

Still seems like more effort that it's worth. In my mind it should be:

Action phase 1[Shooting occured in this phase]
Action phase 2[shooting didn't occur here]
Action phase 3[recoil has reset here]

Those with only 1 action phase aren't really affected (unless it carries from round to round?) those with 4 IPs will need to manage their machinegun fire.

Recoil penalties are cumulative over Combat Turns.

And that is the problem... RULES should employ logic. Otherwise they really aren't rules, but a cluster of illogical statements strung together.

On this we agree.

And that just becomes politics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)



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