You must have missed the Threads on Deckers. Apparently, Per the Developers desires, Deckers are being positioned as Front Line Combatants now...

Positioned, yes. Achieved no.

a) None of those things have to be true. If you're a combat mage, none of them ARE true.
b) Sure, I'm just pointing out it can always go bad for anyone.
c) ... I'm sorry, but you don't get to decide what I do and do not take issue with.
d) I didn't forget those skills. Those skills expand you into different roles, much like adding infiltration skills to the sam does. And if Spellcasting is your firearm, that means Spellcasting is standing in for every single firearm skill at bare minimum.
e) Or if you use it as a preparation instead, letting you get it ready hours in advance and have it up for minutes without the need to sustain. And if you're a combat mage, you have it. Hell, damn near ANY mage is gonna have that, and if you don't it's your own damn fault.
f) Clearly a contested point.
g) Pretty much the same at Force 6+, under the old rules - the threshold was 6-Force, with no minimum that I can recall. Now it's Skill-Force, minimum 1, unless it's freaking obvious.
h) Mages have plenty of pros. Versatility is key amongst them, though far from the only one. Combat wise, they have access to degrees of battlefield control the sam can't touch, they can do some truly nasty things to the enemy, and they can reliable hit otherwise nigh-impossible targets.
i) Actually, you do. Those are the standing SR5 background count rules as per the Missions Hot Patch Errata. Old background count rules do not apply to this discussion.
j) As you yourself point out, mages have little else to spend cash on - and a Power Focus 8 is worth the fragging karma.
k) You need to actually read what the rules are this edition. Buying 'ware cannot be in place of attributes, it must be in addition to - augmented maximum is now based not on metatype maximum, but on actual natural attribute. If you have Agility 1, no augmentation can ever take it over 5. So no, sams can't skip spending karma, they have to spend both in varying degrees.
l) So I did. Whoops. Oh well, not like L was all that relevant.
m) A combat mage is a mage who is built primarily for combat. However, his skillset remains intrinsically more versatile because Spellcasting is the solution to far more problems than every combat skill put together. No matter how much you build towards combat, it's literally impossible to build a combat mage who is anything but a few spells away from being great at other stuff too, which takes a lot more investment for the sam. But if we take the approach that the combat mage, in aggregate using all his tools, is to be as combat-effective as the street sam, we have to take into account the combat implications of things like Ice Sheet, Increase Reflexes, Illusion spells... He has combat options the street sam doesn't, which means that his flat-out damage needs to be lesser or to be costly. As such, you have the choice between reasonable Drain and lower damage, or high Drain and hella high damage.
m) That possibility always exists with Drain. However, you can't compare their post-soak damage to your pre-soak Drain. Now, direct spells have their uses, and indirect spells have their uses. Direct spells are specialized tools that are very, very, very good for their purpose (and the fact that Force isn't part of their damage means you can just as easily use Reagents or Edge to alter the limit without consequence). It's like having a gun that is absolutely guarunteed to hit the target in a completely unarmoured spot.

I can attest to my Decker having 9/10 wounds, 9/9 stun after his stim patch wore off on his last run to that effect. It turns out charging the security guard in a full body suit and an ares alpha was 'unwise'. I got the drop on him, then he dropped me.

I find it highly amusing that we have this thread complaining about mage's combat spells being nerfed and several other similar threads alongside threads complaining about how SR5 is magicrun and mages are overpowered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

What I don't get is why the mage is bothering with any sort of combat spell when they can summon spirits? Seriously, for the drain, the amount of damage a spirit can dish out (many times over since spirits hang around and keep fighting) tops any combat spell and the spirit tops any armor spell since they'll be the one drawing fire most of the time (not getting shot at beats pretty much any other defense).

Mages are still brutally powerful. However, the Direct Combat spells are pretty terrible. A single F9 or F10 ball lightning still cripples groups of foes with minimal effort.

So is the complaint "I am only a demigod?"

-DrZ

It looks like someone doesn't like having to reach into the bag for another club after spending an entire edition playing a 3 iron on every stroke of every hole.

Spirits do actually fall under the "indirectly nerfed by damage and armour changes" category, as their Hardened Armour wasn't increased to suit (though the effect was enhanced to be less all-or-nothing); it takes Force 6 to get a pool of 10-13 with DV12 AP-6 (basically equal in damage to a well equipped Street Sam, but notably inferior in attack pool, and without the ability to diminish defense pool), and to get this you need to risk anywhere from 2 to 12 Drain. Conjuration is a good tool to have, but it's only one tool.

Spirit armor was greatly enhanced. In addition to getting double their force in armor, they get their force in automatic successes on damage resistance. Offensively, Fear is still the spirit's equivalent of the aforementioned 3 iron. Resisting it is all but impossible for most characters, and the duration is going to be longer than most combats. Tack on that Concealment is even more brutal with the reduction in Perception bonuses and Energy Aura and Engulf are still a mountain of automatic damage with giant AP penalties and it's a tough sell that spirits aren't still brutally powerful.

Kinda why I made my first post in this thread. >..>

It was twice their Force in SR4, too (and thus the change doesn't keep pace with damage and AP increases); Energy Aura is not automatic damage but rather bonus damage to melee attacks and a damage reflection; Fear is not at all "impossible" to resist unless you were foolish enough to go for dump stats (and Willpower would be an exceptionally poor choice of dump stat anyways), and the fact that you're not factoring the much longer combats of SR5...

It went from double force to double force with Force in automatic successes (which is roughly the same as rolling 5 times its Force on a damage soak test). The damage reflection is automatic. Next time you see a PC with two mental stats of 6 or 7, let me know. Until then, I'll keep betting on the spirit landing that Fear for a combat turn or two. Two turns is a ton of time to clear the board. The last combat of the last thing I played at Save Against Fear over the weekend was over in less than a combat turn, and it started with a group of well equipped combatants who outnumbered us encircling and ambushing the team.

I haven't actually found combats to take that much longer in SR5. I thought that they would on initial reading of the rules, and if you tried to fight the way you did in SR4, I can see how they would. The old paradigm of trading bursts from cover means gunfights turn into sieges as lots of ammunition is expended to no worthwhile effort due to the drop in offensive bonuses and the addition of a second defensive stat. Abandon the tactics that don't work, shift to things that do (like grenades and indirect area spells and the liberal application of Stick&Shock suppressive fire) and the shooting stops a lot quicker.

That change doesn't keep up with the damage and AP increases - spirits are vastly more vulnerable now than before.

Damage reflection is automatic if you're stupid enough to attack it in melee. Punching things that are on fire is an obviously bad idea.

Two or more net hits happens less than half the time if the PC has Willpower+Logic 8; if the player chooses to Edge the roll the spirit's odds get a lot worse (also, consider it's chances of getting EVERYONE - rather low).

The vast majority of reports from SR5 have been longer combats; you have amply demonstrated the problem with Grenade Formation, though.

As I mentioned earlier, my experience with Shadowrun 5 combat was extremely brief.

-DrZ

For us so far combat is much, much quicker. We have been going through running wild and the PCs steamroll things and they are not that optimized. Maybe it will change when the opposition is on more even footing with the pcs, but right now the pcs hit ell over 50% of the time and they kill or incapacitate virtually every time they hit.(except the mage who does lack luster damage.)

As for the main topic, I'll reiterate what I said earlier since another session went by to the same effect. Mage overall is fine, its not magic run though I do think some spirit powers and a spell or two needed a bit more nerfing like fear, concealment and mental manipulation spells but overall they are fine. Direct damage spells were nerfed too hard. Yes in 4e you could overcast too easily, the higher drain and the removal of first aid as a drain healing option fixed that though. The double hit of making direct spells just net hits in damage makes there damage far far too weak in comparison not only to other pcs but the mages other options. A more effective combat spell(as a preparation for max benefit) for the mage would be improved attribute agility and then just go to town with a SMG. While that is a cool option for a combat mage, it seems off that its a better option for a book worm mage with very limited combat skills.

Are direct damage spells relatively assured damage? Sure, but if you work autofire it is as well, AoE damage hey look relatively assured. Yes when fighting the cyberzombie troll tank with ninja speed it might come in handy, but that is a bit too specific of a niche to call it a balanced spell.

Not what I'd call official.

I will add that healing was pretty snappy in this new edition. If you survive, you can come back from the brink relatively quickly. My aforementioned Hacker who was unconscious and at 9/10 wounds was able to heal fully at a street doc in just 2 days. Not too shabby considering a stiff breeze would have punched his ticket to the big metaverse in the sky.

-DrZ

Yeah you do heal up pretty good, we have found with the combination of first aid(form people who suck at it) the heal spell and a street doc, you can go from deaths door to right as rain pretty damn quick. I like it, it keeps the flow of the game if someone gets injured mid run.

Another reason to geek the enemy mage, so he doesn't get his side back up and running fast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Yup. And he was at 9/10 wounds after Heal and First Aid. Suffice to say he won't be taking any "milk runs" anytime soon.

-DrZ

magicians are already incredibly versatile. they can very easily add a lot to almost any situation you can name. they have massive utility both in and out of combat. the cost for all that power has to be somewhere.

magicians doing bloody awful damage would actually be a good thing, because it would mean that instead of being best or second best in every single field, there would actually be areas where they aren't at the top of the heap. except that they don't deal awful damage. they have options that let them deal lots of damage, just like any other character. they even have the option to so using their core skill of spellcasting.

as it stands, magicians don't need godmode with their direct combat spells. they need to either be nerfed everywhere else, or nerfed *more* in damage (ie in their indirect spells), not less. you have one type of character that can, when well-built, perform at or near the highest level of ability in almost any field (hacking being the exception, pretty much, although you can sometimes achieve the same results if you approach from a different angle... you may not be able to use spellcasting to copy a file from a host, but you might be able to mind control the host's spider into giving you a copy of the file you want, for example).

it isn't good for the game to have one archetype that is the best (or just slightly behind the best) at everything with comparatively little cost unless everyone is supposed to play that archetype (that is, it's fine for magicians to be better than everything else, so long as the game is designed with the intent that everyone is going to be a magician. shadowrun is not designed with that intent, as far as i can tell).

Easy fix:
The auto-hits are not subject to AP. The dice rolled is (as well as the stun v. physical), but the auto hits themselves are not.

That is, a Force 6 spirit always gets 6 hits on its armor roll, no matter how much AP you use.

Also, the "modified by AP" bit is weird on hardened armor, is it "(Value / 2) + AP" or "(Value + AP)/2"?

I've seen mages who treat spellcasting as an all-solving hammer, and try to stretch spell definitions far beyond where they were intended to go in order to avoid spending points on more spells by making their existing list do everything.

After an entire edition of having my combat monster outclassed by the guy who happened to pick up stunbolt because it seemed like a good idea at the time, I have no problem with mages having to work towards being as good at hurting things as a street sam.

So yeah, I've got a worlds smallest violin here. Who wants me to play it?

I'm not saying it's an issue, just something worth noting - some of the structural changes had pretty broad reaching effects that I'm not sure people are giving proper credence.