I think we'd need to see a faaaaaaar more dystopian world for that kind of peanuts pay.

And gear would have to be dirt cheap, including ware.

Or corps burn through alot of company men who split and take stuff with them.

So...

1) Add all lifestyle costs
2) Divide by number of PCs
3) Multiply by number of PCs?

I didn't make that up, it's a direct quote from the SR3 core rulebook.

Otherwise, yeah, it's crap pay. I think the actual implication is that most runs pay crap and runners take those jobs just so they can eat and keep the power on, holding out for the potential opportunity to pick up bigger scores. Remember also that most runs (that is, most of the runs in the setting, keeping in mind that PCs are always somewhat special compared to the set of all other runners) aren't supposed to be breaking into high-security areas of the SCIRE, fighting legions of Red Samurai, and stealing prototype fusion plasma rifles worth billions. They're mostly just breaking into offices, torching documents, extracting middle managers, and stealing data.



Yeah. Since step 3 cancels out step 2, you pretty much just have to do step 1. I'm guessing whoever wrote that paragraph didn't do so hot in algebra.

And that is why player characters will do anything they can think of to make a nuyen, up to and including stripping an office they hit down to bare walls and floors and flogging the carpet, furniture, fixtures, and the bodies of the workers.

I was thinking of a good place to respond, as this forum isn't specifically for it, but some of the house rules tie into the current discussion, namely shadowrunner pay.

First homerule/errata was to use the missions hotfix. It is well put together and addressed a couple of issues. Since a player is a mystic adept, the karma increase for powerpoints was important to have in. As for mysads being op, while they may have potential, his build as a troll one certainly is not.

Second were some changes to technomancers I was hoping to test out and see how balanced it was. I proposed it at some point in another thread as well, and that was a single downward shift for the technomancer quality on the priority table. Sadly, no one is playing a technomancer in this campaign so I did not get to actively see how this worked out. Ameliorated somewhat by something else I recently noticed in the rulebook that I think looks promising.

Gear Changes: Wireless bonii. They are just so horribly implemented that not one person who looked in the gear section (which is everyone), thought they looked good, made sense, or were desirable in any way. For us, gear has always been hackable, that isn't really a change, and no one opposes it. What people do oppose is wireless bonuses that are bad. I really just can't find words to describe what was done other than bad. We ( I am co-dming with someone) keep looking at ways to implement them, but it is such a mess that we have mostly just ignored them so far, and for anything implanted DNI allows access to the wireless bonus.

Payment: We are using the base scale, which for starting runners works well. People complain and moan, but if you look at the numbers involved, for a starting group it gives a good, decent payment, usually between 7 and 13 thousand for a basic run. What it fails to do is scale upwards adequately as the runners advance. For this we are modifying the scale by adding street cred as a multiplier. This is still being tested a bit, we aren't sure if we should settle on street cred or street cred/2 for what the multiplier should be. Functions smoothly, as the runners become better known, they are offered more pay based on that reputation.

Magic: We allowed the grey rules area where a mundane can buy up their magic with spare karma during chargen. No spells, no powerpoints, but it gives them access to magical skills such as enchanting, and astral perception with deepweed. Part of this was for a specific character concept.
Also, we allow adepts to use enchanting and alchemy to make magical things.

Its really a pretty short list, because we find the rules set works well. Most of the magic changes were a simple preference, and we don't feel it hurts the game going either way. Technomancers 'feel' a bit on the weak side, but that may change if the Essence loss for technos listed in the book is correct and not an errata, but still makes them the most complex character to create a top notch one to start out.

Actually, if I'm honest that's a carry over from my old campaign in that other game. Our GM was infamously stingy (with the result that once again magic outstripped mundanes, due to the mage progressing with their powers apace while the fighter types found themselves without magical gear to help them keep up.) My sorcerer, originally envisioned as an evoker-style piromaniac (raise your hands if this news surprises you) ended up taking spells that filled niches normally filled by gear (EG: Greater magic weapon, mount, rope trick, mage armour) to help his allies overcome the fact they had clubs and rags as their primary weapons and armour, yet were still expected to go off and save the kingdom on the orders of epic-level NPCs.

As a direct result of this my first shadowrunner was of the type who brought a crowbar along to steal the nails and whatever they were holding down. Enemies were chopped up for 'ware or organs, hijacking the target's pimped out vehicle was higher priority than completing the mission, that sort of thing.

In our first run the payout was 4 grand between us. Due to excessive amounts of looting and judicious grand theft, petty theft, larsony, pickpocketting, swindling, pilfering, and swiping we ended up netting 75+ grand each for our 4-man team.

After that the GM reached a compromise with us and we toned it down, and the runs actually payed enough for us to eat.

EDIT: oh, and if you're wondering if those epic-level NPCs had access to any resources that would be helpful? Yes. They had to build several extra fortresses to protect all their fat loots. Did we get any help from them? Nope. Damn racist elves.

Wow. That's the sort of GM that you want to club over the head with the rulebook, and remind them that the Wealth by Level rules are not mere guidelines.

We did, and he woke up and realized that having enough cash to buy food might be workable after all. Still, we were about level 9 when we started getting cash.

LOL, he should have been, "Due to the economic downturn, the Emperor is actually hiring you part time so he doesn't have to pay you benefits, and if you save the kingdom but it takes more hours than he paid for he isn't going to pay you the difference".

I've always paid based on a mix of lifestyle costs and other odds and ends. Generally speaking I'd end up shoveling out, after doing bits and bobs of stuff, 20k for starting characters for an average-difficulty run. I was a bit more generous though(and still am), and we play a slightly above average game in terms of power. (Of course, they could take milk runs if they wanted, but those didn't pay so hot-they weren't terribly dangerous, though. I'd also often make a couple of big scores that had bigger threats attached available, of course-should they want to take the risk.) But I think 20k a head for an average run is a solid pay bit-it allows for a solid lifestyle(or a couple smaller ones), saving up for goodies, and covering extra costs(resources expended on a run, medical bills, and so on.)

However, it's not *quite* enough to want to sit back and do only one per month if you're the type who wants bigger goodies. (Example: Damn, I want that Synaptic Booster 2, and damn, that's 190k...yeah, sure I'll do one run a month and get the thing in two years...) If for some reason I sense people are getting a bit too cosy I might throw in a wrench or two of course. For example, after a couple of these, to prevent credsticks from becoming too fat, the 'average' runs might dry up awhile, causing the crew to have to accept little milk-runs or whatnot-and if they don't and choose to get lazy, they'll find the credsticks draining and then they might not want to turn their noses up at the little milk runs.

If you think 20k seems excessive for an 'average' difficulty run, I also play things that these are not the most common runs-as said, the milk runs tend to be far more common. These don't pop up every day(and they probably take some setting up, time passing for meets and stuff, so you won't be taking more than a couple 20k runs a month at best even IF they were offered.) I was more discussing 'difficulty to pay' ratio.

All in all I'm generous enough with my players that they feel like they're getting somewhere(again, we don't play the type of game generally where you're constantly trying to scrap for nutrisoy while betting on devil rat fights), but not *so* generous they get too lazy.

If you think about it that would kind of be an amusing economic commentary. If all the corporate people have unsatisfying lives or whatever but they wear suits and get to work the coffee machine, whereas the runners are doing all kinds of dangerous work for less pay but then hilariously strip the carpets and steal the coffee machines and silverware whenever they go into an office for a mission.

That's where I am as GM, the pay has to be enough the players don't go GTA. Other things I consider is the value of the target, the higher its value the higher the pay will be. This does not necessarily mean difficulty, but usually does.

I haven't played Fifth yet, but my heart will always belong to SR2's metaplot.

I'm the one guy who, so far, voted for "SR1 but haven't touched SR5 yet". To be fair I think the mechanics are...uh, not optimized but the STYLE. Most of my favorite sourcebooks are from the SR1 era.

That said, I really cut my teeth on SR3. I've never actually played SR as a player, excepting things like the computer/video games ala "Shadowrun Returns". But I was an SR3 GM for the better part of a decade and had a real long runner. I'd still like to actually work on that story, but all my old crew are working now so I might just do it as an SRR mod someday. I don't remember half of the rules anymore but give a few weeks and I am sure I could dust off all my old house rules. Since the rules for 3 were preferable but the setting for 1 was king, I did a 2050 and forward scenario using SR3 rules. Have somewhat similar rules between the two helped.

Actually I take back the "never played tabletop as a player" thing. I did do a (heavily modified) SR2 game as a player, once. Only problem is that the GM had certain...issues, one of which was being fairly bad at GMing. When you do "time stop" magic in your first mission you are doing it wrong.

I bought SR4, never played it as it came out as my group got tangled up in real life. I didn't mind the attempt to streamline the rules, although I though the fluff (which I think is the real meat of SR) was starting to suffer at that time. I like some of the more recent developments though.

I may pick up SR5 if my circumstances improve. As it is right now, as interested as I am to investigate the fuss about it, I don't have the time or people for tabletop gaming.

LordHaHa

Behold the failing of the Inspiration Box.....

... and aside from my online friends who handle these, this detail (if true) saddens me. RPG's are meant to be played in-person, around a table in a "mancave" or something similar. And they need to be managed by people that aren't afraid to go it on their own and away from the books. That is how inspiration really grows IMO.

Definitely do not know that one, may have to ask the guys in the group who do play Missions to explain to me tomorrow night.

This is something that the security conscious in me just can't stand. I tried to think of it from a POV that I could then explain to other players (new or old). I came up with this: it's like those "gadgets" on your Smartphone. Those things that make it do cool shit like GPS (Faux or Real), Weather, FB, Square/Credit Transactors, etc.... most of the time, the phone isn't doing much of anything, but it is ALWAYS poking it's nose into the Matrix at times it has preprogrammed. Intervals you don't control. Now just imagine your Commlink (and the first Decker I see with these running gets nailed mercilessly) as those things are trails. Datatrails. Stupid moments no one ever understands. They're are the "Sendings" in the Ritual Sorcery step from the old SR1-2-3 days where even if the spell didn't connect, the astral goon following it had a chance of seeing you if it got close. The Wireless Bonii are BONEHEADED ... especially in a combat scenario. A Smartlink with it's Matrix link open (Firewall or not) is a signal trace waiting to happen IMO.

This last part we have definitely come at as well.

... and now I tossed in my Voting Hat. 3rd Ed. Our House Rules expanded way beyond the mechanics of even 4th ed to the point we didn't realize it when we converted over half the time. Wireless Matrix if anything, just meant someone made a stupid gesticulation in Network Security and somehow had the Charisma/Con test to fool the world into going along for the ride.

We admit there were problems, tons of them... but we are finding 5th Ed has some huge flavor holes of it's own now. The "Limits" system is nothing more than an attempt by the game developers to help all the whiners in gaming land to curtail their players, whom apparently they couldn't curtail on their own. Sure, I admit that some things should be limiting. Let's try a few;

Maximum Melee Damage (limited by barrier/structure rating of weapons, which were actually given). If that didn't work, ask the Player what they really think they are doing and how.

Barrier Rules - We had the fix, sorry Mike... wish we could have turned 'em over to ya'll.

Character Pay - The higher the pay, the higher the stress. The more the fallout (no electronic game inferred). Even if it "went smoothly", it really didn't... the PC's just didn't always have all the facts at the start. Sometimes the "Scrounge" skill could fill in the gaps during an otherwise low-paying run (what, you mean your GM never hid "Easter Eggs" in the RPG??... and you call yourselves Gamers....)

Magic ... well if the PC's have magic, sure as hell the NPC's do too. Or better yet, they didn't... and compensated in Evil™ methods as yet unseen.

Technomancer(y) ... it's Magic, it just manifested differently. We even found ways to explain it through 4th all the way to 5th now (we are currently playing the unrolling of the 5th Ed OS as a World Event and why). It wasn't that hard to understand, everyone just made it that way.

Riggers v. Deckers ... the implants were always there, they didn't have to go away. The dice mechanics were easy enough to convert, so just do it. The stuff has, after a fashion, made a comeback now anyway in 5th.

=====

That's a few, our own game site is slowly filling up as we continue to clarify and convert to 5th Ed (new players, fewer old players). I find a lot of things interesting as hell as a GM and a player with *EVERY* edition of Shadowrun that has come out. 3rd Ed was the switching point for us. It was where we truly made the leap and as such will be my personal favorite. It doesn't mean I won't play, and it doesn't mean I won't adapt. In fact, for me personally, learning to adapt what we've had for ages adapting to the "changing world" makes up plenty of challenge in and unto itself.

Our local gaming shop includes a 'Mancave' bigger than the sales floor section, which caters for all the products they sell and pays for itself with memberships and snack food sales. It is awesome.

(slid OT here)

... *THAT* is truly good to hear. Many gaming stores do this, and it's always been an amazing consideration that these shops persist in this and do as well as they do. I'm always however very curious to hear about people who get to game "in a home". Not everyone is a college student, or younger, and a lot of people play at home still. And yes, I do know of the magnitude of gaming in the military.

Liked SR1 through 3, though towards the end, it became extremely fragmented.
Liked SR4A, not so much SR4; SR4A fixed many but not all my woes with the system. The treatment of riggers was appaling
SR5 is a bunch of good ideas, wasted by bad editing and a few authors royally screwing up.

When I was in the Corps, and stationed at MCAGCC 29 Palms, the local gaming store had such a cave... it was awesome.
Have been playing and running games in the Home for the last 22 years, and don't see us stopping. The best man cave is the familiar man cave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I had a local game shop that took up 2 medium (not the ultra narrow usually reserved for No1 China Takeout) sized strip mall spaces, one of which was the gaming area. Then they moved into a nearby mall, then the owner moved back to Michigan(?) and closed up shop. I was sads.

Just found a place near my current workplace and while I stopped in long enough to browse (I was buying some cardsleeves for my Dice Cards while I waited for my chinese food from the place next door), I didn't notice a whole lot of gaming space.

I consider myself very lucky. I've played with the same group since high school, some 15 years ago. We were friends before that. Back then we used to play 3 times a week, and occasionally weekends too. Over the years we dropped down to twice and then once a week as we all had our own jobs/houses/marriages/kids to deal with. Some players have joined, some have left, but we still have a regular group of 5 playing every week. We've vowed to keep it going until we're too old to read books and too arthritic to roll dice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Fixed TNs were a vast improvement over previous editions, sorry SR 1-3. That leaves 4 or 5, which have vastly different levels of maturity...I'll withhold my final judgement until 5 at least has working (for me) chargen options (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)