Does anyone know the engagement ranges for urban snipers in Iraq?

Because once you pass the opposed test you know it is there and you can spot it normally... but it is still running silently. Passing the opposed test doesn't miraculously turn the gear into normal mode, it is still silent. Therefore if you know a feature about the icon that is running silent...

And in addition, it you were looking for all the gun icons running silently, in my group you would end up with the answer of "none." Because they all slave to their commlink, per the listing on pg 235

which means the persona on the commlink subsumes the gun icon and since they are running silent there would only be persona icons running silent.

Most stories coming out of the Middle East theater are between 300m and 1500m depending on the situation. In the Marines there is a position called the Designated Marksman. He uses a modified M-14 (7.62mm) semi-auto rifle instead of the standard issue bolt action for the designated sniper. The DM is embedded with his platoon where the sniper and spotter are a 2-man team on their own. The DM would be the one shooting in the 100 - 200m range.

... Once you've won the opposed test, you've spotted the icon.

And slaving doesn't work like that - you're still wirelessly visible if you don't run silent. What that line says is that your commlink icon instead becomes your persona icon - other icons are unchanged.

The problem is that you do not KNOW the identity of a silent Icon until you have beaten the device in an opopsed test with at least a net hit. Looking for Comlinks makes sense, problem is that you will likely find hundreds of such things in an area ot 100 Meter radius. And if they are not hidden, you can eliminate all of the dross. Sad part is that the Rules do not make sense with the way they are written. IF IT IS HIDDEN, you MUST IDENTIFY IT througfh an opposed test (and to do so, you apparently take a crap shoot unitl you find the one you want). If you do not succeed on the test, it is an unidentified Icon that is still running silent (And even if identified, it is still running silent, which is where the "If you know a feature of a running silent Icon" sentence comes form).

The rules are the problem, but I have to agree with Binarywraith... They are the rules we have, and yep, they suck in a lot of places.

Farthest Sniper Shot in Iraq (IIRC) is about 1400 Meters or so. May be a bit longer, and yes, it was an Urban Environment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm still waiting for an explanation of the "if you know a feature" line that actually works and is consistent with that reading.

After all, if we have two competing readings, and one accounts for more of the text than the other and prevents stupid crap the other allows...

Wasn't that Chief Kyle, shooting from a rooftop at another shooter up in the minaret atop a mosque? In short, two individuals in elevated positions above an urban area with very few tall buildings to stir up odd crosswinds, mitigating the effects of the intervening city?

Not sure... the one I remember is the American Sniper (Army if I remember correctly) in his station shooting into an Apartment Side (enemy combatants shooting onto the street that had to be neutralized)...
I do believe the gunner was elevated, but the target was on an apartment balcony.

As near as I can tell, it's not that beating the Opposed Test allows you to Spot the Running Silent Icon, it's that beating the Opposed Test will give you one (or more) pieces of information about the Running Silent Icon, as per normal Matrix Perception. (IE, win the opposed test with two net hits, get two pieces of info.) Once you have any pieces of info (IE, you know a feature) you spot the Icon, and further Matrix Perception checks are normal & unopposed.

I could be wrong, but that's definitely how I interpret it at this time.

I believe that I covered that in the quote you just replied to, as well as several others having also done so. I do not see the disconnect that you apparantly do. I also think it needs a lot of clarification, but seems pretty self-explanatory TO ME, anyways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You cannot KNOW a feature of a Silently Running Device until You have actually beaten it in the contested roll... at which point you know have a feature (or two).

You did not. Per the Running Silent rules, the instant you win the Opposed Test you perceive the icon as normal - thus that line cannot be relevant to that event.

And it is possible to know features before the roll - for example, you may have previously seen the icon you're looking for, and it has successfully hidden.

So wait, the Sniper was Army with the Target being 1400 meters away.

So what/who did he hit? To the best of my knowledge there are no barns in Iraq. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Just Teasing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (Ex AF so we have to yank Army's chain just for good measure)

Still, must have been quite a surprise for the enemy combatants who probably thought they were out of range for immediate reprisals/support fire for their targets.

But if it is suddenly hidden, which Icon are you going to try to perceive to reacquire it? See, I disagree with your basic premise, as does the book, to my reading. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Regardless, whichever of us is ultimately correct is irrelevant, because of its ambiguity. If there are multiple possible (rational) readings, it is by its nature unclear at its very core. It needs to be clarified to which is the correct reading.

But the rules do say that knowing a feature of an icon that is Running Silent allows you to spot it with a (presumably net) hit on a Matrix Perception Test. For a reading to be rational, it must account for that detail, and I've yet to see it properly accounted for in your reading.

You cannot know a feature until you have made the Matrix perception Test to Detect the Icon... Once you have done so, then you know the feature (assuming you got more than the Single net hit to actually detect the Running Silent Icon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Any knowledge comes AFTER that roll, not BEFORE. And thus the line is accounted for.

But at that point, you've spotted the icon - so that cannot be the situation the line applies to. Under your reading, you must spot the icon to know a feature of it, and therefore knowing a feature of it cannot help you spot it. But the rules say that knowing a feature can help you spot it. The contradiction is clear, yes?

Not really, no... I think you are reading more into it than is really there. Like I said earlier, there are at least 2 ways to read that text, and probably several more if I went back and looked at what others have stated. It is so unclear that it causes consternation and argument about something that should be crystal clear (and you really cannot say that it is, becuase many people have issues with it)... It will likely never be cleared up, if CGL's history with Errata follows form.

Johnson: The target you're after has a Top of the line Commlink, highest end line, not something many people can get their hands on

Decker: Good to know, I think that will make him easier to find in the matrix.

Something like this strikes me as "knowing a feature". Due to information you were given you know that the commlink you're looking for is 7+ in Device Rating, so anything under that can be filtered during your Matrix Perception test

If that were the case, it'd make Running Silent pointless, since you could just look for any device with a Sleaze Attribute and find cyberdecks far too easily.

That's not true, entirely. Stealth Tags should be on almost everything, and they also have Sleaze. Also Decks aren't forbidden, so there are legit people walking around with decks. You don't want a false positive. Its also not illegal to run silent, but it is illegal to not have your SIN broadcasting. So if you have a commlink with your SIN and your deck running silent, I don't think the Pawns will care. Though, I'm sure different corporate facilities will have different rules on running silent.

You still have to win the opposed test to spot them.

which people running a Deck have a good chance to win

I would also say, that this "feature" to spot an icon running silent has to be defined a lot more closely ASAP.
As described in the rules you only get the information if there is one or more icons running silent in your host or in 100m range.
I always interpreted the "you can spot, if you know one of the features of the hidden icon" as a search filter like "show me only the smartguns".
But I have seen on threads for example "show me the icon that has just attacked me" as a feature or just a few post before me here "show me all hidden decks".

As long as we don't know, if this "feature" sentence is meant like a filter (which I personally think is highly probable) and don't have examples what is a valid feature and what is not, different tables will have vastly different views regarding how the matrix is seen and how useful running silent is.

By the way, how did you interpret the SR4 hidden nodes, if you made a "Detect Hidden Node" action for all hidden nodes in mutual signal ranges. The description of that action only said, that you may search all hidden nodes in range, but it never explicitly described, what the output of this search was.
Did you a) see every hidden node around with its position just as clearly as you could see active/passive nodes or did you just get a list of hidden nodes around you and you had to Analyze each and every one to find the hidden smartgun of your enemy.
Both would be valid interpretations of the description of "Detect Hidden Node", but of course the latter is by far less useful. I was never sure, what they intended. Has that been clarified?

Reminds me of the running silent discussions.

Well, for the sake of discussion, here that is from SR4. (I refuse to touch SR5 with a ten-foot pole.)


If you're searching for hidden nodes, I would have to say that you can see the nodes in question in your AR field of view, and would be able to determine their Signal rating, but that's all that Detect Hidden Node would do on its own - though you could certainly set your Analyze program to automatically buy hits (using your Computer + Analyze program) to determine info about nodes as EWar + Scan detects them.

So if there's an ork hiding under the trashcan (just assume it's a huge can or a small ork) with a disposable commlink running in hidden mode, Detect Hidden Node would tell you there's a Signal 3 node under there. That's something, but it could be a disposable commlink tossed in the trash by its last owner, a sensor, or pretty much anything that would be running in hidden mode.

You could, of course, Analyze it to determine that it's a commlink and that its Matrix attributes are Response 1, Signal 3, System 2, Firewall 1; information which together will tell you it's a disposable commlink. No way of knowing if it's in the possession of a terrified teenager hiding from the armed and dangerous men and about to start dialing Knight Errant for help, a mini-ork with an uzi who's about to start spraying, or a discarded piece of electronic detritus that has yet to be salvaged by a SINless squatter. You could hack it to determine more, or just launch a grenade at the trash can.