Wow, I love circular arguments.
It allows exactly what it says it allows.
Damn.

You still haven't accounted for ALL the rules in your reading, wraith. In your reading of the rules, what does the line about knowing a feature about an icon Running Silent mean?

The way I interpret it is as follows:

"Feature" is one of the other pieces of information from the Matrix Perception table. So, DR is a feature. Matrix Attribute Rating is a feature. Etc.

So, you start out not knowing *anything*. You need a Matrix Perception check (Simple Test) to determine if there are any Running Silent devices out there.

Once you know that there are Running Silent devices out there, you pick one at random and try to learn more about it by using Matrix Perception (Opposed Test, Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] vs. Logic + Sleaze.)

Other then the fact that it's Opposed, this is a normal Matrix Perception check. Meaning that for every net hit, you learn a feature of the device.

Once you've learned a feature, you can spot the device. You can now go back to Matrix Perception (Simple Test) to learn more, or use other Matrix Actions (or Resonance Actions in the case of a TM) on that device.

Once you’ve spotted an icon in the Matrix, you continue
to spot it even if it initiates silent running.

I believe everyone is missing that other part of running silent:

So if you spot and icon you know information about it (such as "it is a firearm"). The owner switches it to silent running. You would lose that icon except you know something about that icon (because you spotted it before it went silent) therefore you continue to spot it or can re-find it without having to use the opposed test on it.

Bob the Decker is walking down the street when he spots a couple of Yakuza enforcers chatting on the corner. Bob owes the Yaks money, and likes having all of his fingers, so isn't really interested in a fight. Only one of them has a gun, though, and he figures if he can disable it real fast, he can bolt and they won't catch him.

So, Bob scans the area for icons and doesn't see the gun. Fair enough, he'd automatically spot it if it was online normally. He looks harder (makes a Matrix Perception Test), and makes a success! With that, he can spot that there are two icons running silent in his signal range (100m). Likely one of these is the gun he wants!

Now, he has a hard choice to make. The Yaks haven't noticed him, so he decides to go ahead and try and spot the gun's icon. He picks the icon he thinks is most likely (The GM or Player chooses randomly) and starts checking it out (rolls Computer+Intuition [Data Processing] vs the icon's Logic + Sleaze).

Bob's doing well today, and he manages a net hit on the first icon, spotting it! He quickly checks it for more information (Matrix Perception Test), and discovers it is a commlink belonging to the unarmed Yak. Curses. Well, time to try the next icon. Since there is only one running silent icon left in range, it is the only possible choice, and he rolls against next.

Meanwhile, the Yakuza have noticed the guy trying to duck behind a stall and fiddling with a cyberdeck, and are coming over! Bob rushes through, making all the rolls needed to unmask the icon!

It's a sign on the nearby building that the proprietor didn't want skriptkiddiez hacking.

The Yakuza proceeds to shoot Bob in the face with his throwback pistol.

Knowing doesn't mean guessing. You can guess that is a device out there that has a Sleaze attribute, but until you perceive it and discern that it does you are only guessing, not knowing.

I'm going to go with DMK's/TJ's interpretation

And that's where the second part of the question comes in. How would the action be meaningfully different if you're speculating?

I do appreciate the viewpoint. SR5's Matrix rules are, I agree, pretty absurd.


That said, I am still having trouble fathoming how Rhat isn't understanding this, although it's likely he's just trolling.

Let's use an in-game example.

Bob the Decker is walking down the street when he spots a couple of Yakuza enforcers chatting on the corner. Bob owes the Yaks money, and likes having all of his fingers, so isn't really interested in a fight. Only one of them has a gun, though, and he figures if he can disable it real fast, he can bolt and they won't catch him.

So, Bob scans the area for icons and doesn't see the gun. Fair enough, he'd automatically spot it if it was online normally. He looks harder (makes a Matrix Perception Test), and makes a success! With that, he can spot that there are two icons running silent in his signal range (100m). Likely one of these is the gun he wants!

Now, he has a hard choice to make. The Yaks haven't noticed him, so he decides to go ahead and try and spot the gun's icon. He picks the icon he thinks is most likely (The GM or Player chooses randomly) and starts checking it out (rolls Computer+Intuition [Data Processing] vs the icon's Logic + Sleaze).

Bob's doing well today, and he manages a net hit on the first icon, spotting it! He quickly checks it for more information (Matrix Perception Test), and discovers it is a commlink belonging to the unarmed Yak. Curses. Well, time to try the next icon. Since there is only one running silent icon left in range, it is the only possible choice, and he rolls against next.

Meanwhile, the Yakuza have noticed the guy trying to duck behind a stall and fiddling with a cyberdeck, and are coming over! Bob rushes through, making all the rolls needed to unmask the icon!

It's a sign on the nearby building that the proprietor didn't want skriptkiddiez hacking.

The Yakuza proceeds to shoot Bob in the face with his throwback pistol.


Now, Rhat, do you understand why you don't actually -know- anything about running silent icons? You can assume all day that there's an icon for that object you want to hack out there, but the random selection is there because your character has no idea which one it would be, or if it even has an icon. You can't filter icons with no information about them.

Did you completely ignore Fogarn's post? Number 129, I believe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I like this example.

Now a question. Since the decker knows there is a gun, can he attempt to look for its silent running icon? From your example, the decker is assuming that of the two silent icons one of them is the gun. When the decker rolls his (opposed) perception test against the gun and fails he could assume that either the gun is better hidden than he thought or that it indeed does not have a hidden icon. But knowing that there is a gun and there are silent icons, would this be possible? The text does state that knowing an attribute of the icon allows this, and knowing that the gun should be generating an icon IMO should allow the roll.

Yup. So the only way to find an icon that is running silent is by random chance since you can not know anything about it until you've found it, even though the text says otherwise.

Sorry to jump into this 1/2 way through and it may have been already answered but couldn't the decker just rely on his AR overlay to help identify which nodes are worthy of investigation once he's detected them?

Which is frankly bollocks. If you detect hidden nodes, your AR overlay should show you their direction from you and rough distance.

So sewing 100 stealth RFIDs into your clothes might make it hard to find and hack your commlink, but it'll basically negate any concealment you may be in, well enough for shooters to make called shots to your face, and unquestionably well enough for spotters to call in mortar/drone/airstrike/artillery fire on your position.

If I turn on my cellphone's wireless, it will tell me how many networks are within range to connect to. It doesn't tell me where the router are, what type or model they are, or how close they are. It just informs me they exist. I'm thinking this is fairly synonymous. If I wanted to get more information, I'd have to really look at the router I'm trying to connect to.

I believe everyone is missing that other part of running silent:

QUOTE (pg 235 Spotting Duration)
Once you’ve spotted an icon in the Matrix, you continue
to spot it even if it initiates silent running.

So if you spot and icon you know information about it (such as "it is a firearm"). The owner switches it to silent running. You would lose that icon except you know something about that icon (because you spotted it before it went silent) therefore you continue to spot it or can re-find it without having to use the opposed test on it.

I agree though, if you haven't spotted it before, you know nothing about it until you have passed the opposed test on the hidden icon.

Therefore there is enough information available to pinpoint hidden icons for an AR overlay without having to reach blindly into a bottomless bucket of hidden icons.

Sure, but is the info being put out enough to be noticed by the user in the blizzard of other AR icons that is a walk down the street in SR5 terms?

When you're getting the set of hidden icons, it's enough to get some positional information on them.

And yet it isn't, because you can't locate an icon you haven't spotted. Yay rules!

Also, go read the thread.

Actually, the Running Silent section is, well, silent on this point.

Matrix Perception
The Matrix has a lot of stuff in it. Cars, blenders, light
switches, advertising RFIDs, hosts, and everything wireless
and/or electronic. You need to be able to find your
target in the galaxy of icons before you can start affecting
it; finding an icon this way is called spotting it. Lucky for
you, the Matrix is very helpful in finding things for you.
You can automatically spot the icons of devices that
are not running silent within 100 meters of your physical
location. No matter where you are in the Matrix, your
commlink or deck (or your living persona) only has its
own antenna for wireless signals, so this distance is measured
from your physical location no matter where you
are in the Matrix. Beyond this distance, you need to make
a Matrix Perception Test (p. 241) to find a specific icon.
For all intents and purposes, there is no “physical”
distance to any host in the Matrix. You can always spot a
host from anywhere on the planet without a test, assuming
the host isn’t running silent.
You can always keep track of your marks, so you can
spot an icon you have a mark on without a test, no matter
the distance.