So you fundamentally disagree that a cybered up troll with 16 strength--on par, if not exceeding, most large animals like bears, rhinos, and hippos--could not and should not wtf-ruin a car in the same degree as these large animals?

Yes, I FUNDAMENTALLY disagree with your stance... The troll is still only 300 to 400 pounds... Which is a far cry from 2000+ pounds or more of the Rhino (Some even go as high as 7500 pounds)... So No, he will NEVER cause the kinds of Damage that a Rhino is capable of. Sure, he can dent a car up all day long with his fists if he likes (Bears will generally not damage a car to non functionality), but he should not be able to just slap it and cause any "Real" damage. See, I do not agree with the Melee Damage of SR5. I think it is ludicrous. I FAR prefer the Str/2 Damage of SR4A. I see it as less of a verisimilitude breach. *shrug*

SR4 still had trolls one-shotting armored vehicles. Or have we already forgotten about the trollbow on trollerskates?

No, sadly.

Not for lack of trying.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

None of My Trolls did that... But yes. However, you had to highly specialize for that. Sadly, though SR4A tried, they did not go far enough to eliminate that issue; and in fact, in SR5, apparently they just decided that this was an okay design principle and ran with it.

Just one more reason I will not buy.

What? Trolls with combat axes or bows have been wrecking vehicles since at least SR3.

If I recall correctly a friend made a Troll that could punch out a panzer back in 3rd Ed.

Naturally I fed him a panzer to punch out, because, yeah.

We liked the Pink Mohawk style.

Exactly, which is Crap... SR4A went a long way to fixing that, but did not go far enough...
You want to wreck a vehicle, you do not punch it or cut it with a Sword. *shrug*

We're back to SR4(a) not really being very much like Shadowrun at all, and thus being a shitty comparison point. Also, you're complaining about the level of realism involved in a Troll with metal muscles attacking a tank with a diamond axe.

I still wonder what you think the damage of someone with 2.5 times peak human strength and titanium reinforced bones properly executing an unarmed strike should be comparable to. Because the only attempt at an answer you offered was someone who is, per definition, within the range of human strength.

Unless it got retconned in SR5, trolls average 8 Body, 7 Strength, and 225kg (495lbs). Not as big as a rhino, but still pretty hefty. I seem to recall trolls maxing out around 365kg (800lbs), but I don't think it was ever explicitly written in the stuff I've read.

They SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO DAMAGE A VEHICLE appreciably with either their fists or a melee weapon... Work better for you?

So you're looking for a total retcon of troll strength and strength augmentation in general, from across 5 editions?

Not really. What I'm trying to establish, here, is that there's no way to model what you want to model when there's only a single system for damage applied to anything. For such characters to be able to deal the damage they should to human targets in such a system, things like this will inevitably come up. However, without baking some kind of scaling system into the system at the core (in which case, trolls would probably be staged up in scale from baseline humans), any attempt to resolve it will get stupidly over-complicated. Plus, from a balance perspective, you can't go creating a situation where a vehicle or drone is a perfect defense against melee.

And I'm not sure I can grant the idea that no melee weapon ever could produce the right amount of the right sort of force in the right place to damage a vehicle, especially when we're bringing people with twice peak human strength into play.

No, as I said, SR4A went in the right direction, and I could live with it. Half Strength, Stun - WHICH DOES NO DAMAGE TO A VEHICLE AT ALL. Works for me.
Add a Combat Axe, and You MIGHT get enough damage to actually hurt a vehicle (Physical Damage after all), MAYBE.

Problem is... you cannot even simulate a Boxing Match AT ALL in Shadowrun. I think that is a horrible state of affairs. Adding to that the ability for a Troll with Combat Axe to destroy a car with a single hit, and that just jumps the shark for verisimilitude.

Really? You don't see how it's possible for something with 2.5 times peak human strength, leverage superior to a human (reach), and a leverage based weapon designed to create massive shear force and to penetrate 2070's armor could damage an engine block?

I'll grant that the melee rules need some additions, though.

Fails realism there, too. You can take a car apart pretty effectively with a sledgehammer and a wrecking bar, if you take the time. If I can take a door off in a couple-three swings, I assume a guy who's half again my height and four or five times as strong could probably manage it a bit faster. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

SR cars probably use more plastics than metals. IC engine blocks are probably mostly aluminum; electrics probably have relatively fragile batteries that depend on the frame to protect them. The frame is probably the only thing left in most cars that's still steel, and possibly the drivetrain on the heavier vehicles. Electric drive motors might be hard to destroy completely, but not too hard to damage if you have a tool. Even if our car-hating troll were attacking a current 2013 car, he could still cause a lot of damage by cutting wires or hoses, breaking small parts off (like fuel injectors or glow plugs), cutting belts, punching holes in the radiator(s), etc. Beating through the skin of the vehicle should be no problem at all unless the vehicle is actually armored.

I really don't, No.
Yes, the Melee rules need a LOT of work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Doors do not impact Driveability. Yes, You can render a vehicle scrap given time and determination. You will never do so in a single blow. Trolls should not be abled to do so either. Sadly, IN SR, they can. Breaks Immersion and Verisimilitude, at least for me. *shrug*

ALL (well, most anyways) vehicles in SR are Armored. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Are they? That's a change from the earlier editions, then. It used to be pretty much just security vehicles. The average civilian cars had no armor.

In SR4A, The vast majority of vehicles have some armor (ever if not a lot of it).