So... reaction 10 or better, intuition soft or hard capped, almost pure hits? Even Mr lucky will be struggling to get 15 hits on defense.

I'm not confused; what I'm pointing out is the MASSIVE number of hits the sniper would have to generate on dodge and soak to survive.

What Umi said. I used Edge and got a good roll, 16 successes. He then made his defense roll, and his soak roll. I didn't see what he had, or what he rolled, but I trust the GM. But even without Edge, I can see that if he got lucky on both rolls, he could have survived. After all, that's exactly what the street sam did, and those rolls I did get to see. It took a lot of Edge, but if the sam in the open could survive three direct hits, I understand that the sniper could as well.

Which brings us back to the original topic: Lethality. So far, I haven't seen anybody go down to a one-shot kill, NPC or PC. Every time we take out someone, it's a result of multiple hits. I realize this might be a bit of an odd case, which is why I'm asking everyone to chime in on their experiences. I've found that combat in SR5 is much less deadly than before, and I'm curious as to why that is.

That's what many of us are asking. You are saying that combat is not lethal and we're looking at net hits and dice pools that, unless they are wild outliers, should result in death. I guess that's why we're asking so much about the incident. How is this Street Sam built? I'd be interested to see how he survived three shots that connected.

He said it was out of the book, which gives him a Body of 7, Armor of 13, Platelet factory, and with 2 cyberarms, would be a Physical Condition Monitor of 14.

If the sniper is using the least powerful sniper rifle, and assuming 1 net hit each time, it means that he has to soak 12 DV, 3 times.

He is rolling 17 dice (after AP) each time, so he should get about 6 hits per resistance test, knocking that down to that down to about 6 DV, then the platelet factory kicks in and reduces it to 5 DV.

So, with average rolls, and not spending edge, he would be at 1 box over his condition monitor. With 3 points of Edge, it doesn't seem that far fetched for that build.

High slightly augmented Reaction (say 6), soft-capped Intuition (5), with +4 for good cover and high Willpower (4) from full defense gives you around 20 dice and around 7 hits average, probably 10 hits for a "really good roll". He probably had access to at least one point of edge from a pool of at least 3 (either from his professional rating or being a mundane human, or if adept/magician then throw in some magic as well) which could help explain the 10 (or more) hits either by Push the Limit or Second Chance. That brings the damage from the Ares Alpha to 17.

From there, a high Body (5) with a Chameleon Suit (7) and another helping of edge would give him 14+ dice to soak with (let's say 10 hits again for his really good rolling and more edge or to reflect better stats than projected for the dodge roll) brings it down to only 7 damage (don't forget the possibility of some bone lacing or plating/skin). The wound would be painful but still leave him with 4 boxes left, assuming the other hit was a glancing blow (soaked down to 3 or less, something that he could probably do fairly easily if it was something other than an assault rifle) would leave him just barely able to get away.

While not something that would happen every day, with the lucky die rolls that were going on that night (both to get the 16 hits and absorb 3 hits from a sniper rifle) I'd say it's not that impossible of an occurrence.

EDIT:
On the topic of lethality, it does feel slightly more lethal than SR4 with the bumped up damage values for all of the weapons while keeping the Condition Monitor calculations the same. This is slightly offset by the stronger armor (that has to deal with higher AP from weapons) and dodge rolls including Intuition (which also has to deal with the ability to get much higher attack pools with higher skill caps). I'd say that characters who are designed for fighting (high body, armor, dodge pools to go along with their monster attack pools) will likely have around the same survivability that they did in SR4 but characters who are less focused on survival (dedicated face/decker or whatever) will be more susceptible to 1 hit KOs. I haven't really noticed a difference in my games, but we're only 2 games into our first SR5 campaign and only had combat in one of them (which was more ambush on our part against really unprepared targets so the fact that it was a stomp wasn't a surprise).

That's not the only example, but since Lobo and Aschin have already dissected it, I'll try a different one.

I just got done with the second Chicago Mission, and we got into a fight with some Tanamous-style ghouls. We did have two PC's go down in that fight, but that was from getting Stunballed. These ghouls were wearing armor, and packing guns, so I imagine they were more capable than normal ones. Still, every one took at least two direct hits to take down. Likewise, the PC's each took two blasts from a Stunball, in addition to the other hits, before they went down.

Now, after seeing how spells were nerfed, I understand that one-shotting people with a spell isn't likely anymore, and I accept that it's a feature, not a bug. I'm still trying to figure out how two pistol adepts can max out their rolls, and still not take down a ghoul; both of us hit our cap more than once. The ghouls were rolling well, but not that well; I think I inflicted 8 or 9 boxes on one in one hit. Unfortunately, that's not enough for a one-hit takedown.

@Cain,

I'm still not sure you are using a good example, in that Ghouls have a body of 7 - higher than maximum normal human. With that in mind, you are correct - you realistically can't one shot them with a pistol.

Gun adept has an Ares Pred, he can get 9 hits (6 accuracy, +2 for smartlink, +1 for Enhanced Accuracy). Assume he is using normal ammo - so that is 17P DV -1AP

A ghoul has Reaction of 5, Intuition of 4, so 9 dice on the defense - lets assume the pistol adept fires an SA burst, reducing that to 7 dice.

So, on average, 2 hits. Reducing the attack to 15 DV -1 AP

Armor Jacket is 12 dice (down to 11), body is 7, so 19 dice, so about 6 hits, taking it down to 9 DV - which leaves it still up and about, although with a -3 DP modifier.

Even APDS ammo only means they take about 10-11 DV - which is still below their Condition Monitor of 12.


Now, try that against more "normal" opposition.

Professional Rating 1 - Street Scum:
Reaction 3, Int 3, so 6 dice to dodge, -2 for the SA burst, yields only 1 hit, and their Armor Vest and body of 4 gives them 12 dice to soak, which is 2 more hits, so your 17P damage is only reduced to 14P, which is well above their Condiition monitor of 10. One shot, one kill.

Professional Rating 2 - Corporate Security
Reaction 4, Int 3, so 7 dice to dodge, -2 for the SA burst, yields only 1 or 2 hits, and their Armor Jacket and body of 4 gives them 15 dice to soak, which is 2 or 3 more hits, so your 17P damage is only reduced to 12P, at best, which is still above their Condiition monitor of 10. One shot, one kill.

Professional Rating 3 - Police Patrols
Is exactly the same as above

Professional Rating 4 - Organized Crime
Is exactly the same as above

Professional Rating 5 - Elite Corporate Security
Reaction 7, Int 5, so 12 dice to dodge, -2 for the SA burst, yields only 3 hits, and their Full Armor and body of 6 gives them 23 dice to soak, which is 7 more hits, so your 17P damage is only reduced to 7P, which leaves them more than half dead, but still kicking.

If you want to one-shot the Ghoul, you want APDS and full auto. The reduction in armor and dodge pool should drop him.

Gun adept has an HK227, he can get 9 hits (6 accuracy, +2 for smartlink, +1 for Enhanced Accuracy). Assume he is using APDS ammo - so that is 16P DV -5AP

A good has Reaction of 5, Intuition of 4, so 9 dice on the defense - Full auto reduces that to 0.

Armor Jacket is 12 dice (down to 8 ), body is 7, so 15 dice, so about 2-3 hits, taking it down to 13-14 DV - which both are above its Condition monitor of 12.

Compared to 3e, it is laughable, in that a single shot from a Heavy Pistol from a gun adept would easily kill a Ghoul in an armor jacket in one shot. AND in 3e, even if somehow I didn't kill it in one shot, I could shoot again in the same Initiative Pass. So for me, the idea that 5e is "a more deadly combat system" is sort of funny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Caveat - again, I didn't play 4e, so it may very well be more deadly than that.

Pretty sure the standard of comparison for the unqualified statement cannot be anything other than the direct antecedent, aka SR4.

While they did a nice job of looking at it based on certain assumptions, I think it would be helpful if someone had the stats for the character from Chasin' the Wind so we could see if the assumptions are accurate or not. One reason I am wondering about the whole thing is that particular scenario was complained about somewhat vociferously for its lethality. Maybe your GM modified the scenario as a result, I'm not sure.

I just got the PDF. After looking through it, my guesstimate numbers were either equivalent or low for every stat.

I would agree whole-heartedly that the encounter would definately be lethal, that sniper can toss around enough dice to regularly run into the Accuracy limit on his sniper rifle. Those dice must have been on fire for all of those dodge/soak rolls.

Based on talking to her after the run, I believe she actually went slightly easy on us. I know the sniper didn't manage to get surprise on us, thanks in part to a high visual Perception, but also thanks to Combat Sense and a good surprise test on my part.

I'd go with the standard human rule. Could you cap a standard unarmored human in 1 shot....yes you still can. Even with a light or hold-out pistol. Once you say street sam, it goes into the realm of taking out a troll. Depends on many things---damage soak pool, dodge pool, cover, weapon damage, accuracy of weapon, surprise, etc, etc. Once factoring all this, could a 1 shot happen? Yes, but it depends on the situation.

All your opponents got +Int on Defense, and your chars are unlikely to already have that Weapon Skill 12. Going first and carrying a large weapon is no longer sufficient. Combat got much less lethal IMO, except for those managing to survive by alpha strike before.

Everyone's less likely to get hit, but when you do you're getting hit for more damage - the former doesn't really have an impact on overall lethality, but the latter does.

Everyone is not equally less likely to get hit. Players can get a pretty high defense pool (some 16+ using cover), while previously every punk with a gun was dangerous.

Actually, that doesn't necessarily hold. Since extra successes on attack rolls stage up damage, just tagging someone isn't super-effective. More successes with a weaker weapon can be more effective that one success with a more powerful weapon.

Also, I've noticed that armor is easier to get. It seems like everyone has at least 12 points of armor these days. AP seems to be common, but you still don't see a lot of it unless you're packing APDS, so it doesn't make as much of a difference.

They still are, but now as (frankly) before it depends on a bad roll from the player on the dodge. On the occasion that the punk with a gun does hit, he'll deal more damage than he would have before.

Armour is higher, yes, but it didn't keep pace with damage increases. And getting tagged for 8P from a Predator V is definitely more than you'd have gotten hit with from that gun in the past; doesn't take all that much to take out Joe Average in one shot from that.

There's a lot of variables here, but the point holds: More successes means more damage. If I hit with six net successes from a pistol, I'll do more damage than you will with one net from a shotgun. But with the higher defense pools, getting those six net successes is much harder, which means lethality is somewhat reduced, or at best a wash.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you can make that argument without directly factoring the increased damage.

I did. Net successes count for hitting and damage; if the defender beats your attack roll, your base damage is irrelevant. So, the accuracy of a weapon counts for a lot, since it limits both total and net successes. Even if you do hit, fewer net successes means less damage; even if the base damage was increased, the average damage needs to include that you do zero on a miss. That lowers the overall damage, since the likelihood of a miss is higher.

By the way, I finally managed to one-shot an enemy. A mook who botched his defense roll. I still say this game isn't proving to be especially deadly in practice.

My experience is the opposite. So far, with moderately optimized PCs using fairly accurate weapons, I've seen over 80% of enemies (full enemies, not Prime Runners, but not minions) get one-shot, and 100% of drones. It's not at all difficult to one-shot a normal enemy (as in all boxes filled - normal enemies don't have overflow). I've only run a couple of sessions, and no PC has taken a significant hit, but looking at some of the hits to enemies, we've seen that it's highly unlikely the PCs would survive a hit. I have seen several enemies successful avoid attack and thus take no damage, but still, when they fail to do that, it's generally over. I've yet to see an enemy take less than six boxes of damage on a successful attack.

Certainly so far SR5 is one of the most lethal RPGs I've ever played, and looking at the math suggests that it will continue to be. I can't speak to whether it's more or less lethal than 3E/4E, but it's vastly more lethal than 1E/2E.

The dice pools may be lower, but the limits are largely irrelevant - I've only seen a limit get hit so far on a to-hit roll once (ten successes was limited to eight, and the player could easily have afforded the edge to break the limit if she'd wanted to).

Note that even with good defense rolls, enemies are often one-shot if hit, especially with melee weapons, cyber unarmed or shotguns/ARs/SRs. The armor just isn't tough enough.

By the way, I would disagree with your assertion that one has to factor in misses to lethality. That is true on a statistical level, but it's not true on an actual in-game level. What SR5 has is a system where there is a small-but-notable chance of evading an attack outright, but if it does hit you, you're likely to be out of the fight or nearly out of the fight. That's a very lethal system, because it means that, in practice, you're a handful of unlucky rolls away from a TPK, which was definitely not the case in 1E/2E, nor is it the case in RPGs which have "typical" RPG lethality. SR5 is more akin to low-level early-edition D&D in terms of lethality.

I was pretty surprised that Run and Gun came with zero options to reduce lethality in the optional rules (unless I misread one), only to increase it. I think adding +3 to all armor values would probably do it.

EDIT - Thinking about it, interesting point re: defense pools, combat-focused PCs do typically have pretty good defense pools - which is why I've seen them avoid so many attacks - largely because they get boosted Reaction from what Reflexes-thing they're using - without that Reaction they'd be in a lot more trouble - that doesn't help them much if they do get hit (yes, it will likely be with reduced successes, but for actually-dangerous hits, the net successes are the smallest part of the life/death equation - DV and AP are what gets you). The reason so many enemies get one-shot is the inverse of the same - they typically lack Reaction boosters (even if using Jazz or the like it's only +1) and have non-maxed Reaction scores to start with. They often have just as much or more armor than the PCs, but not as much chance of outright avoiding a hit.

So what this leads to is a sort of "dancing with death" deal, where the PCs almost certainly can't survive two hits, but may well avoid half a dozen or more attacks before they get hit (especially if they had enough Initiative to call "Total Defense" at the beginning of a round).

Statistically, if what you're saying is "It takes a larger average number of attach to kill a PC in SR5 than SR4", I can certainly believe that, but I think that can co-exist with SR5 being more "lethal" than SR4, because it is really quite likely that a single attack from a combat-focused PC or NPC could take down another combat-focused PC or NPC - much more likely than in other games I've run - looking at the two most combat-focused characters in my group, if they attacked each other, it's likely that whoever connected first would one-shot the other. Again though, I don't know the numbers from SR4 - on SR1/2.

Last session I 1 hit killed multiple targets in a single action with a single gun.

Enfield shotgun firing buck, medium choke, long burst. At short range I killed 4 lightly armoured hostiles in a single complex action by splitting fire between two groups of 2. -8 dodge meant that it was pretty much my net hits + 14 vs their armour + body + 4. I rolled fairly well, getting 3 hits on one pair and 2 on the other, forcing them to soak 17 and 16 damage with about 17 (9 vest + 4 body + 4 AP) dice each, give or take. Now the dice were on my side here but even on an average roll they were soaking about 6 damage, which would still fill their tracks and drop them.

Later on I did the same thing at extreme range and rolled REALLY well with edge, dropping 3 of the five guys I hit.

Yes, that's a very powerful gun and I was putting out a metric ton of firepower, but it is possible to drop not just one guy but multiple with one shot.

Yes and that points up the key issue with SR5's combat - if you do hit, you hit very hard, with most weapons - and you can all but ensure that you hit by using autofire and buckshot and the like.