Even so, what he wants isn't best done though connection and loyalty, but through story and GM choices.

... Given that what he wants appears to be to highlight more optimal Connection/Loyalty ratings for certain sorts of contacts?

Connection and Loyalty are abstracts. (Ok, a lot about contacts are abstract, but still....) A contacts area of focus is more important than its c/l ratings, even a high Connection contact won't be able to do a lot outside of his area of expertise. Its more important to define that, if you want to know what a contact can do for you. Once you have that down, exact C/L ratings don't matter, since its all up to GM judgement. In general, something that is within a contact's expertise shouldn't require as high of a Connection rating anyway.

Let's use the Arms Dealer as an example. We know she specialzes in weapons and armor , so getting a hold of those should be easier for her than a standard Fixer. Where a GM might say that a fixer needs a Connection of 3 to have a reasonable chance of getting hold of the newest Ares gun on the market, a Dealer might get away with a 2. Its all a judgement call, but all you need is flavor text, not hard numbers.

Loyalty is clearer, but even then it's a judgement call. People are more inclined to do favors that are easy for them, so a given favor might require a lower loyalty score if it's within their circle of ability. Sal Worthington, the used car dealer, might have a higher Loyalty to character A than character B, but if the favor involves vehicles, he might be more willing to stick his neck out for character B. If character A asked for something risky and outside of the car world, he mihgt be less inclined to risk it.

What this means is, you ideally need to define a contact with the GM before you assign ratings. Between the two of you, you can agree on what ratings best fit your view of the character.

This is simply not true RAW, in 5E. It may well be how you run your game, and that's totally cool, but it is not RAW, nor, I think RAI.

The Connection and Loyalty scores are actual numbers that are actually rolled, checked or referenced, RAW. They are no more (or less) abstract than the your initiative dice or your weapon's DV. Exact C/L ratings absolutely do matter - for example, you can get loyalty x5% cash (RAW) for items from your fixer-type contact - this is why the OP has a fixer-type contact with C1/L6, because that it is the best possible starting setup if you want to offload nicked items.

The ref's judgement is absolutely involved, as it is in every part of the game, but there are rules, and those rules, unless you choose to ignore them (which again, is fine, but you can equally ignore any rules), have some bearing on the game.

By the way, a high connection contact absolutely can do a lot for your outside of his area of expertise - that's pretty much the point of having high Connection - I mean, he personally won't do it, but he will find someone for you who will, even if it's not who you wanted or expected. Otherwise there would be no point in having high Connection on anyone but a Fixer (who could theoretically find absolutely anyone for you).

For example - a high-connection academic contact obviously won't be able to introduce you directly to some thuggish mercs, but he may well know a professor who studies mercs who may in turn be able to suggest someone you could contact. Whereas a merc-leader contact, even with low connections, is going to know some mercs.

While Connection and Loyalty do have mechanical effects, a lot of what BlackJaw is asking for falls into the abstract side of things. Specifically, he seems interested in what level of contact you need to get certain things. Well, that depends largely on what the contact is focused on, even more than his numbers. For example, while the rules say you get Loyalty x 5% for selling an item to a contact, it also says you need to have the right kind of contact. You can't go to any old Loyalty 6 Contact to sell stuff, after all. Generally, if it's mundane, a Fixer can handle it for you, and if it's magical a Talismonger will take care of it; but some items might require someone even more specialized. Cyberware might require a street doc or medical contact, software might go through a decker, and so on. Random paydata is another important one: paydata is useless to someone outside its area of expertise, so it really helps to have the right Contact if you want to sell it for a good price. This is also clearly stated in the RAW, and clearly in the RAI; it also requires a GM call, and has an important bearing on the game.


That's actually not true. Having a high-Connection contact, even within a sharply limited domain of expertise, is very valuable. If you have a high Connection law enforcement contact, like a police chief, then if you get in trouble he can do a lot more than a low connection beat cop could. Another one you might not think would matter would be a Street Doc: at any level of Connection, they'll patch you up when you need it. But a high Connection street doc also has access to implants, which matter to any augmented character. He also would have access to more advanced treatment gear, such as high-rating medkits and maybe even magical healing. If you absolutely need to go to a hospital trauma center, he can help clean the records for you when you leave. There's a lot that the higher Connection can do for you, even if they never go outside their area of expertise.


Well, that kind-of proves my point. If you need to network, going through a related contact is better than going through a high-Connection one. What's more, networking doesn't depend on their Connection rating: it depends more on the contact's social skills, and is modified by GM call on their area of expertise, backstory, and so on. If you get Kenneth Brackhaven as a contact, even though he's Connection 6 (Mayor of Seattle), he isn't going to be good for placing you in touch with the heads of the Ork Underground. In this case, it's not because it's outside his area of expertise (politics), but because he's such a noted metaracist, ork leaders don't want anything to do with him or his flunkies. Going through him to reach orks might actually hurt you.

The bottom line here is that even though two contacts might share identical stats, what they can actually do will vary greatly. An arms dealer and fixer might have identical C/L ratings, and even have identical attribute and skill ratings, but they can do vastly different things; and even where they share expertise, one might still be better than the other. Both can buy and sell guns, but the dealer is better for obtaining high end, latest-gen equipment; whereas the fixer is better suited for fencing stuff you looted off bodies. This isn't because there's any huge mechanical difference, but because of the story and roleplay that's done. Also, this is well within both the letter and the spirit of the rules.

Actually I'm trying to talk about getting the most for your karma expenditures on contacts, and that means I'm talking about connection and loyalty, and how to get the most out of them.

A 4/3 fixer will give me 15% for items I sell to him. A 1/6 fixer will give me 30%. They both cost 7 karma and might have the same skills and attributes, but they aren't the same. The 4/3 fixer are other uses, but if what I want is to unload gear regularly for decent value, a high loyalty low connection fixer is best. A 1/1 Fixer may have the exact same attributes and skills, but they will be much less useful in a variety of ways.

Connection is explicitly used for acquiring gear through a contact. Contacts use their own skills to locate and object, and negotiation to buy it, just as a PC does, but they gain a bonus from their connection. That means buying a gun through your arms dealer is affected by the dealer's connection. Their own attributes and skills are a larger part of that dice pool, but between two identical versions of the same contact, Connection and Loyalty are a big deal.... and that's what I want to talk about. How much karma can/should I spend on a contact and how should it be divided up?

I generally agree. The rules specifically say "You can always go to a contact such as a fixer or relevant specialist to fence a hot item for you. " It seems your fixer will fence just about anything for you, presumably because they have the connections to find a proper buyer and make a profit. Specialists will only take things related to their specialty. It maybe abusive, but a 1c/6L fixer is a lot more useful in that regard, and may well be an extra 7 karma.
Moreover: you can always sell stuff the old fashioned way, by looking for a buyer then negotiating a price. The rules also say you can use a contact (like your broadly applicable fixer) to do that instead of using your own skills, and in that case, the contact's connection rating again applies. Higher connection contacts will get you a better price.

But Connection is directly used in a Contact's networking tests as bonus dice for the contact, although you are right that their attributes and skills are probably the larger part of their dice pool, it does apply. A connection 4 contact is generically better at networking than a connection 1 contact.

Here are all the spots in the rules I've found that use Connection and Loyalty of a contact. Most of the rules start on page 386:

Loyalty: "The Loyalty Rating is applied as bonus dice whenever a PC negotiates with the contact (or vice-versa). The gamemaster should also use it as a modifier or a threshold (as appropriate) when someone else tries to put the squeeze on a contact about the runners."

Getting a Hold of a Contact: "If the gamemaster doesn’t care one way or another about a particular contact getting involved in the story, he should roll 2D6; the contact is available if the roll equals or exceeds the contact’s Connection rating."

Legwork: "If it’s info the contact was asked to keep confidential, or it could hurt him if the wrong people learned he knew it, he will be understandably reluctant to share it. In this case, a Negotiation Test will be necessary to get the contact to divulge what he knows; apply the contact’s Loyalty rating as extra dice to your roll. A PC’s Street Cred can affect the Social limit for this test (see Street Cred, p. 372). You can lay out some nuyen to get the contact to be a little more willing to share; the gamemaster can set the exact parameters, but generally for each 100 x (7—Loyalty) nuyen you shell out, you get an extra die on your Negotiation Test (one of the few times you get to actually buy dice)."

"If the test fails and the contact doesn’t know anything, he can still ask around to learn the answer. The contact makes an Extended Connection + Charisma [Social] Test, where the interval is 1 hour and the threshold is based on the gamemaster-determined difficulty of the question/information sought, as noted on the Extended Test Thresholds table (p. 48)."

Networking: " If the contact agrees to help out, the contact makes an Etiquette + Charisma [Social] Test with a threshold equal to the target NPC’s Connection Rating. Apply any appropriate social modifiers, based on the relationship between the PCs and the target NPC and a dice pool bonus equal to the contact’s Connection rating."

Buy/Sell Gear: "Contacts looking for traders follow the same procedures for Availability and Fencing Tests (p. 418) that PCs do, using their own Charisma and Negotiation skill instead of yours, along with their Connection rating as extra dice (they’re better at it than you are). "

Favors: "A contact will still charge what the market will bear for services rendered, but he’ll also do it all under the table. If you want to haggle for a lower price, you can try a Negotiation + Charisma [Social] Opposed Test, adding your contact’s Loyalty Rating to your dice pool. Net hits on either side raise or lower the fee by ten percent, as appropriate."

"Contacts will normally agree to personal assistance with a Favor Rating equal to or less than their Loyalty Rating. If the Favor Rating exceeds the contact’s Loyalty Rating, you’ll need to convince the contact with a Negotiation + Charisma [Social] Opposed Test."

"They’ll expect some kind of quid pro quo, usually something along the line of their Connection Rating x 100 nuyen for information or expertise, up to around their Connection Rating x 1,000¥ for goods or services rendered; they’ll probably lop off up to their Loyalty x ten percent if you’ve been nice to them. "

Page 418, Buying gear through your contacts:
"When contacts look for an item for you, they use their Negotiation and Charisma for the Availability Test, with their Connection Rating serving as a bonus to their Social limit."
Note: Previous rules in the contact section indicates the contact also gets their contact rating as bonus dice when buying and selling, but this limit bonus only applies for buying, not selling.

Page 419, Fencing to your Fixer or similar contacts:
"He or she will happily take your item and offer you five percent of the item’s value times your Loyalty Rating with the contact. You might be able to get more selling it yourself, but your contact will take it off your hands, no questions asked."
Note: This is a separate system from the standard fencing rules, which a contact can also do on your behalf but which benefits from Connection instead of Loyalty.

Indeed, and it directly contradicts your previous claim:



So... The reality is that the numbers matter. A great deal. 4/3 is very very different to 1/6 or the like.



Uh-huh, but a significant part of the point of the "Networking" rule is that you CAN get things from outside the precise area they work in.



Extreme examples make for bad examples.

Sure, using a racist to contact a racial minority is a bad idea. Regardless of C/L etc. So don't have any racist contacts? I would outright refuse if the ref tried to tell me my contact was a racist unless he was some sort of free contact I wasn't paying karma or the like form. Still, if you had no other political contacts, he might be better than nothing (if you had no other way to contact them).

EDIT - Also, IRL, a politician who is a noted racist usually DOES have a point of contact with anti-racists, bizarre though that may seem to you.



I don't actually agree, here. A Connection 6 Fixer is probably much better at obtaining "high end, latest-gen equipment" than a Connection 2 arms dealer, assuming roughly equal social skills, because the rules actually tell you about how to get this stuff. With y'know, rolls and things. The ref can step in and modify things, but there are baseline rules, which matter, unless you ignore them.

Anyway, BlackJaw has listed the rules, and they're pretty serious business, especially the last two.

If you'll notice, I cited the rules too. You both are ignoring that fact that the rules require the contact be specialized in the relevant area. One very clear example is that if you want to fence or acquire magical goods, yu can't go to a fixer, regardless of Connection. You need a Talismonger. In the same vein, if you want to fence a stolen cyberdeck, going through a political contact isn't going to work, no matter what their Connection rating is.

So, if you have two different fixers with different specialties and C/L ratings, what you can get still depends on their specialty. Rules BlackJaw didn't quote include that things like favors are modified by how hard it is for the contact to do, as well as how much risk it puts the contact in. Even if your academic contact has a high connection, networking you with a merc contact will be harder and riskier than going through a merc contact. By the rules as written, talking to the merc first is a better choice.

Or, in the case of an arms dealer versus a fixer. If the gun you want isn't up fr general sale yet, if its only in trils with the US military, the GM can easily judge that it'll be very inconvenient and risky for him to try and get it, especially if his story is that his cover is a pawnbroker. On the other hand, its much easier and less risky for the arms dealer to try. And if she has the right story: say, as a quartermaster at Fort Lewis, or as an Ares rep, she might even get a small bonus. Using the rules, the arms dealer could be the better choice, even with the lower connection.

Brackhaven is another example. He's a well establshed character in Shadowrun, he has a writeup in multiple splats, and even has an adventure or two written on him. You can't pick Kenneth Brackhaven without knowing he's a racist. Now, a player mightg not know that he's also the canon Mayor of Seattle, so if someone wants that, you should warn them about his history. But the key thing here is that contacts don't live in a vacuum: they're characters too, with stories and baggage. A good GM needs to take that into account.

So, even though Brackhaven's specialty is politics, and even though he'd obviously know who the leaders of the Ork Underground are, his history works against him. They're not likely to want to work with Brackhaven or his associates, no matter what his connection rating is. Even if he can put you in contact with them, you might suffer a net penalty because you're connected with him.

I'm trying to get some mastery of the 5th edition contacts system. That's why I started this thread. I honestly want to know what I'm missing, because I'm clearly not seeing things the way you are Cain.

I didn't see anything in the Contact section (page 386) that talks about having to picking a style, focus, or specialty, and if anything it implies that Fixer type contacts are broadly useful for tasks like buying things and setting up meetings. There are example archetypes given, but I didn't see anything about being required to select or limit their focus. I figured I might have missed something in the character creation section, as page 386 is geared at GMs, so I've looked at page 98, and didn't see it either. As near as I can tell, the contact's ability are largely limited by their stats, modified by their connection/loyalty in the places where the rules say they do. A major question here is who gets to determine a contacts stats? Contacts are treated as prime runner npcs, but the Contact section on page 386 seems to be written towards GMs, so I don't think I as a player get to pick anything other than a general description and the connection and loyalty, which I pay karma for. The GM then steps in and either makes the new NPC, or uses (maybe with some simple modifications) one of the existing contact archetypes in the book.

Of course I've missed key details before. Am I again?

I agree with the idea that an Arms Dealer with the same connection rating as a fixer should have an easier time getting weapons, but I'm suspecting that it's related to their skills and attributes giving them a larger dice pool for the relevant tests. The rules I've read say "A contact can use her connections to find potential buyers or sellers. Contacts looking for traders follow the same procedures for Availability and Fencing Tests (p. 418) that PCs do, using their own Charisma and Negotiation skill instead of yours, along with their Connection rating as extra dice (they’re better at it than you are)," and those rules says "To purchase an item off the books, make an Availability Test. This is an Opposed Test of your Negotiation + Charisma [Social] versus the item’s Availability Rating." I'm guessing most specialist contacts have a skill specialty (+2) for their focus, maybe some special shopsofts, etc, but a fixer with high Charisma and good Negotiation shouldn't have any trouble getting guns for you, and their connection acts as a bonus to both limit and dicepool, so a high connection Fixer may be better than low connection arms dealer. It's all dice pools, and spending 2 karma on a 1/1 arms dealer vs 7 karma on a 6/1 Fixer has an effect of about 5 dice. A 6/1 Arms dealer vs a 6/1 fixer, the arms dealer will be better, but I think the 6/1 more general fixer (like my smuggler queen example) may actually be really effective and completely legal.

Well if we step away from just buying and selling things: you're clearly right. For favors, legwork, and networking the nature of the contact is very important. These all have specific subsets of the rules that apply to them.

Favors are fairly abstract but I did actually quote the rules on it. The loyalty of the contact effects how big of a favor they will make without needing to be prodded into it. Of course who the contact is should really effect what kind of favors they can deliver. No mater how friendly you are with Bob the garbage man, he's not getting you a T-Bird.

Legwork is where the uniqueness of contacts really shines, as it's all about their skills and access with lots up to general GM opinion. The GM can just declare a contact knows something or not, and how much they know. Of course if the GM determines the contact doesn't know something, that doesn't mean they can't find out. "The contact makes an Extended Connection + Charisma [Social] Test, where the interval is 1 hour and the threshold is based on the gamemaster-determined difficulty of the question/information sought, as noted on the Extended Test Thresholds table (p. 48). The gamemaster can substitute an appropriate Knowledge skill for Charisma. He can also apply any modifiers he feels are appropriate, especially if the information sought isn’t something the contact would normally have access to." Which backs your opinion, at least as far as legwork goes. A generally non-charismatic character with great related skills shines at legwork related to his field and is terrible for everything else. Of course connection still applies, as skill replaces charisma, not connection. You're also right that the rules explicitly encourage GMs to apply penalties or bonuses based on the circumstances and the nature of the contact.

Networking is clearly the place you are talking about when it comes to "risk." The basic mechanics for setting up a meet is completely based on Etiquette, Charisma, and Connection: "If the contact agrees to help out, the contact makes an Etiquette + Charisma [Social] Test with a threshold equal to the target NPC’s Connection Rating. Apply any appropriate social modifiers, based on the relationship between the PCs and the target NPC and a dice pool bonus equal to the contact’s Connection rating." Of course if there is danger in setting up the meeting, their agreement to help out isn't a forgone conclusion ... "If there is risk, you might have to convince your contact first (through Negotiation, Con, blackmail, or good role-playing)." This backs the idea that getting an academic contact to hook you up with a merc is not as good an option as going to a merc related contact, if only because you need to convince your old college professor to take on the risk, and the merc contact does it for a living. Note, however, that the dicepool involved if you get them on board are Etiquette (specialties help here), Charisma (which tends to mean that Politicians and Fixers are better at this,) and their connection rating as a bonus, so a really well connected professor just might be able to find a friend of a friend with merc connections better than a 1/1 merc contact. It really depends on their dice pools.

Any item with an availability rating is up for grabs with the existing rules, unless GM fiat says otherwise. GMs can always step in and say no, or make it more difficult if it doesn't make sense to them, as that's part of the GM's job. Rules wise, however, the mechanics are the same simple Negotiation + Charisma + Connection vs availability system. Risk isn't explicitly added to this calculation as it's sort of already worked into the availability rules. Page 418: "When you get to the good stuff, the higher the Availability Rating is, the harder it is to acquire the item." The gun being a trial model in army units just means the availability is higher because it's so hard to get your hands on it.

If I go to my smuggler queen contact and say "I want the new X547 Hand Laser the CAS Army is doing a trial on, and I've got the $100,000 asking price on a credstick to pay for it," she starts working her contacts and connections to get it. She doesn't have direct access to the army, but she probably knows someone that does, and if her dicepool is big enough she can beat the availability and find me the gun. That's how the blackmarket rules work.
Going to a Quartermaster contact, I might ask for one of those trial laser guns to get lost and find it's way to me as a personal favor. The GM may call that a rating 5 favor, but if it's within his power to pull off (Gm's call), and my loyalty is high enough (or I talk him into it if his loyalty is less than 5) then the gun finds its way to me, but I'll owe him "around (his) Connection Rating x 1,000¥ for goods or services rendered; (he'll) probably lop off up to (his) Loyalty x ten percent if you’ve been nice to (him)." In other words, as a specific contact doing me a favor, he's way better at getting me the gun.

The existing rules mostly support this. Brackhaven would clearly have Prejudiced negative quality, probably at the Outspoken level (I don't have stats for him handy, but it seems to fit.) That negatively effects his social dice pools (-4) for social tasks involving the orks and trolls, which is mechanically like having his Connection rating lowered by 4. Moreover, if this is an opposed negotiation roll, the target gains a +4 to their dicepool. You really don't want Brackhaven trying to negotiate a sale to a Troll buyer. Technically you could still try to use him to make an introduction with leader of the Ork communities, but he's probably not your best option, and you'd also probably need to blackmail him into it because it would "risk" his standing among racist voters if word got around he was interacting with orks.

Overall, I currently think a 4/3 fixer is great for things like legwork (where a balance of connection and loyalty are useful), a 6/1 fixer is optimal for buying or auctioning high availability gear, and 1/6 fixer is best bang for your karma when it comes to rapid fencing gear, although connection 6 is practically family. Other kinds of contacts, especially those that are intended for favors, benefit from being more specific in focus with a connection rating just high enough to justify what you want out of them (connection rating implies certain amount of authority as per the table on page 387) and with a high enough loyalty to convince them to do it for you without too much prodding. Information source and under-the-table-services contacts are probably fine at connection rating 1, and are cheaper to use with higher loyalty, but that may not be worth the karma depending on how expensive their services are.

Am I missing anything?

That's because the part about needing a variety of contacts is on p98. It's not as clear as it could be, but it does say that you need different contacts for different things. Additionally, the contact listings themselves give examples of what each one is useful for. For example, a fixer is good for gear; but even so, not just any gear, magical gear is the province of the Talismonger, medical gear falls under the Street Doc, etc.

The important thing about contacts is that they're non-player *characters*-- they are first and foremost characters, with their own stories and motivations. As part of creating your character, you should be defining your relationship with your contacts. That means you have input into their personalities, likes and dislikes, and abilities. A lot of what you use contacts for is a judgement call on part of the GM; but a good GM will go with your backstory. The limits then become what you and the GM agree on, even more than their stats.

Fixers are a good example. You might see a fixer as a generic businessman, who works with anybody and everybody. But realistically, everyone has a network of people they prefer to deal with. Your fixer might do a lot of work for the Mafia, just as part of his story; so you might not even need to roll if you need Mafia information from them, since his network is mostly Mafia types. But if you go to him for Yakuza information, he might not be as capable, even though a fixer is supposed to be a good generalist.

One thing to remember, though, is that like any rule, contact rules are subject to abuse. There's a running gag from SR4.5, where players threatened to take Lowfyr as a contact at Loyalty 6, Connection 12, and never need any other contact ever again. I never heard of anyone actually doing this, but I have had problems with players trying to overuse Connection 6 contacts. Like knowledge skills, the broader a contact's abilities are, the harder it is for them to get specifics. So, let's say your Smuggler Queen contact has "The Black Market" as a high-ranked knowledge skill. That's a really broad skill, so the GM is well within rights to say that getting specific details is harder for her.


Since we're talking the latest and greatest new gun, it might just be a new house item the GM made up, or something from a new book that isn't open for the players just yet. The availability could be anything at all, or maybe even be out of reach short of doing an independent shadowrun for it.

But, to go with the rules: your Smugger Queen contact could roll her Black Market skill to see what she knows. But since it's a very broad skill, the GM could rule that it's harder for her to get specific information; and even then, what she knows should be colored by her focus. So, she might have heard that a shipment of the new guns were sent in, under great secrecy, to Fort Lewis a week ago. Since contacts don't know everything, even with a good roll, she might not be able to tell you how many units were shipped, what building they went to, who signed for the delivery, and so on. An arms dealer contact, with a much narrower field of focus, could roll a more specific knowledge skill and get more usable information, even with a lower Connection rating.

There also could be plot related reasons why a fixer might not be the best choice, regardless of Connection. If your fixer is Joe Andreianni, a guy who does a lot of work with the Mafia because his brother is one of them, that presents certain advantages. But at the same time, there might be disadvantages as well: the new gun you want might be made by Shiawase, who are in deep cahoots with the Yakuza. This sort of thing is subjective, but it's also dependent on the story you and your GM came up with.


That gets into the "one size doesn't quite fit all" concept I alluded to earlier. One overpowered contact is just that, overpowered. Having a network of Contacts is what you should aim for, not one single god-Contact. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but in the interest of game balance, one uber contact shouldn't completely steal the spotlight of the other PC's contacts. To balance this, general contacts should be best for general things. A fixer won't have trouble getting you *a* gun, but getting the top of the line prototype might be too specific for them. Thus, the specialist contact is better.

Also, while the four things a contact can do for you are listed separately, there is a lot of overlap possible. Going after a restricted item carries risk to anyone who tries for it. For some contacts, that's negligible; but for others it can be a serious problem That additional risk should be reflected in the numbers the contact uses. The risks for failure could be anything, but a good GM scales risk to reward; if you want something with all the bells and whistles, if things go wrong with the contact's roll, it could land them in major trouble. If the story were right, I'd certainly apply the risk /reward option, and say that you're better off seeing a specialist.

An excellent rundown, Cain. Much appreciated.