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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2014, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 30 2014, 08:24 PM) *
I will say this: there are special forces and there are special forces.

In real life, skill sets and levels can vary wildly between different militaries. US special forces tend to be very well trained. British and Australian special forces are trained similarly. While very few other forces can match the Filipinos scout rangers in the jungle, they aren't really that good at CQB/urban ops.

In SR, IIRC back in the SR2/3, the skill level of the opposition were scaled to the PCs, but they were consistent when compared to each other. The Red Samurai were like Clone Commandoes in that skill levels were uniform, while the Firewatch competency levels had great variation. So while you can make a case that an ex-Red Sam should have the whole suite of high-level skills, an ex-Ares Firewatch member could well be the bottom of that barrel.

Furthermore, a "special forces" soldier in a backwater dictatorship may just be a better equipped trooper with higher loyalty and motivation to the regime. Maybe he has better food, so his Attributes are better. Maybe the Great Leader has gifted his elite troops with augmentation.

Maybe the foreign special forces trooper really was trained by Green Beret instructers. But come guys, we all know that when the US military has exchange students, they don't teach us everything.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This is very true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2014, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 30 2014, 10:33 PM) *
But, let's test the numbers. One of the tests a sniper has to pass to get the title in the US military (just be be called a sniper; the standards to make a special ops team are higher) is to be able to hit a target in the head, using iron sights, at 800m. You only get one shot, and you have to be able to do it 90% of the time or better. Using your numbers (13 dice with specialty), we're looking at -6 for range, -4 for called shot (it could be more, but this seems fair), and using a Walther 2100, we have a modified dice pool of 3. That's enough to hit the target, but not enough to reliably kill (the modified DV is only 12, which is survivable), and the odds say you can only do it about 60% of the time. It's demonstratably clear that your numbers are low.


So, I can increase the DP with the Hawkeye Quality (Every sniper I know can see so freakishly well that it is scary) by 3 Dice (Reduce the -6 Penalty to a -3 Penalty). That makes it 6 Dice, and now you have doubled your DP, without adding Dice Bloat. Makes a Difference. That one change puts me into the realm that you describe and I have not increased the Base DP at all. I am sure there are other ways to do so without jacking the DP above where I put it. Aiming also adds 2 Dice. SO now we are at 8 Dice to hit the target in the head. Even a Spotter would provide additional competence without the Shooter raising his skill. So you see, It is demonstrably clear that my numbers work just fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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psychophipps
post Jul 1 2014, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 1 2014, 04:43 AM) *
I may have misremembered the numbers. Looking at it again, it was only 100m. Still, it's not easy to pull off, since the faster you run the harder you breathe; and controlling your breathing is essential for aiming. Basically, they had to make the shot without taking the time to aim.


So it's the shots that biathlon competitors make all damn day with smaller targets at longer ranges...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2014, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (psychophipps @ Jul 1 2014, 09:52 AM) *
So it's the shots that biathlon competitors make all damn day with smaller targets at longer ranges...


Heh... Yeah, those would be the ones. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Nath
post Jul 1 2014, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 1 2014, 06:33 AM) *
But, let's test the numbers. One of the tests a sniper has to pass to get the title in the US military (just be be called a sniper; the standards to make a special ops team are higher) is to be able to hit a target in the head, using iron sights, at 800m. You only get one shot, and you have to be able to do it 90% of the time or better. Using your numbers (13 dice with specialty), we're looking at -6 for range, -4 for called shot (it could be more, but this seems fair), and using a Walther 2100, we have a modified dice pool of 3. That's enough to hit the target, but not enough to reliably kill (the modified DV is only 12, which is survivable), and the odds say you can only do it about 60% of the time. It's demonstratably clear that your numbers are low.
The 3 dice pool is for attempting to make the shot under 1.5 seconds on a previously unknown target, and be able to pull a second one in the next 1.5 second with a 2 or 3 dice pool (depending on recoil compensation). Otherwise, you should roll 4 or 5 dice, depending on the number of Simple Actions used to Take Aim.
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MADness
post Jul 1 2014, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (CaptRory @ Jun 21 2014, 01:06 PM) *


I'm sure this is way off topic at this point; but can you pm me a link to the largest version of that that you have. I would very much like it.
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CaptRory
post Jul 1 2014, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (MADness @ Jul 1 2014, 01:22 PM) *
I'm sure this is way off topic at this point; but can you pm me a link to the largest version of that that you have. I would very much like it.


Th upside down smiley? Its from the smiley menu here on the forum.
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Glyph
post Jul 2 2014, 01:34 AM
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While characters need verisimilitude, playing Shadowrun requires suspending disbelief in a few areas. One is that skills only increase - there are no rules for maintaining a skill, or for skill degredation. The other is that skills are, for the purposes of simplicity, all treated the same when it comes to training time. Becoming a marksman takes great dedication and practice, but it would take a lot more practice to be an expert at, say, the longbow. It would take even more training and learning to become a master hacker. In Shadowrun, though, they all take the same length of time to improve.
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toturi
post Jul 2 2014, 04:54 AM
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I think that sometimes tests do not directly test the skill, but do so in an indirect manner.

For example, a trainee is given minimal supplies and gear and told to get from point A to point B within a set time limit. Sure the skill being tested is Survival and they want to have a minimum of rating 3 but maybe the guy is really Athletic and is big and strong, he gets lucky on his first Survival check and makes very good time. Instead of going around obstacles, which would test his Survival skills, he simply climbs over them/swims across/etc. So by the letter of the test, he has passed. But not in its spirit.
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Cain
post Jul 2 2014, 06:29 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 1 2014, 06:08 AM) *
So, I can increase the DP with the Hawkeye Quality (Every sniper I know can see so freakishly well that it is scary) by 3 Dice (Reduce the -6 Penalty to a -3 Penalty). That makes it 6 Dice, and now you have doubled your DP, without adding Dice Bloat. Makes a Difference. That one change puts me into the realm that you describe and I have not increased the Base DP at all. I am sure there are other ways to do so without jacking the DP above where I put it. Aiming also adds 2 Dice. SO now we are at 8 Dice to hit the target in the head. Even a Spotter would provide additional competence without the Shooter raising his skill. So you see, It is demonstrably clear that my numbers work just fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, you're indirectly adding dice, adding a spotter, and giving them time to aim? To pass the cold bore test, you don't get a spotter, you're on a time limit, and I haven't even brought up the issues of cover or a moving target (Both of which are part of the test). Depending on what those are, that might easily drop your dice pool to zero.

And remember, the cold bore test is one of the first tests you have to pass. In order to move on, to get to training with a scope, you have to be an expert shot without it. The tests just get harder from there. And this is at Fort Benning, the equivalent of basic training for snipers. There are schools that are even more hard core, if you can't pass Fort Benning, it's sure as hell that you can't make it on a real special forces team.

Think about it. Fort Benning graduates between five and six hundred snipers a year. Which really isn't that many, but it's obvious that there's far more snipers than there are special forces teams. That means a special forces sniper has to shoot well above the minimum they needed to graduate. Considering your numbers postulate someone who can barely pass one of the entrance exams, it's clear that your numbers simply do not add up.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 2 2014, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 1 2014, 11:29 PM) *
So, you're indirectly adding dice, adding a spotter, and giving them time to aim? To pass the cold bore test, you don't get a spotter, you're on a time limit, and I haven't even brought up the issues of cover or a moving target (Both of which are part of the test). Depending on what those are, that might easily drop your dice pool to zero.


30 Seconds is a LONG time for your cold bore test. In Game, it is even LONGER due to the way the mechanics work.

As for indirectly adding dice... Hawkeye does not add dice, it eliminates a penalty, that is NOT the same thing. And pretty much every Sniper I ever knew would have it. Most STA (Surveillance, Target Acquisition) Marines would have it too.

In game, that 100 meters you seem to be so proud of is a simple 4 turns of movement with no pushing it. You still have 6 whole turns to take a position, calm your breathing a bit (which has NO Mechanic to it at all), and Aim. Is it difficult in real life. Yes, Sort of, but as a Marine, I can tell you that at 100 Meters, it is not that much of a test (Seems about as difficult as the qualification requirements for STA training I took in the Corp, which required accuracy at much further ranges than that to qualify). Could I do it now, 25 years later? Probably... Maybe...

It is an Entrance exam, nothing more. Many of the Live Fire courses in the Marine Corps are far harder than that particular test. But, It gets harder from there, and the reason that Fort Benning graduates so few Snipers is because the Actual Training is far harder than the entrance exam. But then, that makes sense. Hell, I believe that Marine Sniper Training graduates even fewer than that (I have met more Army and SEAL Snipers than I have Marine Snipers). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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X-Kalibur
post Jul 2 2014, 04:04 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 2 2014, 06:27 AM) *
30 Seconds is a LONG time for your cold bore test. In Game, it is even LONGER due to the way the mechanics work.

As for indirectly adding dice... Hawkeye does not add dice, it eliminates a penalty, that is NOT the same thing. And pretty much every Sniper I ever knew would have it. Most STA (Surveillance, Target Acquisition) Marines would have it too.

In game, that 100 meters you seem to be so proud of is a simple 4 turns of movement with no pushing it. You still have 6 whole turns to take a position, calm your breathing a bit (which has NO Mechanic to it at all), and Aim. Is it difficult in real life. Yes, Sort of, but as a Marine, I can tell you that at 100 Meters, it is not that much of a test (Seems about as difficult as the qualification requirements for STA training I took in the Corp, which required accuracy at much further ranges than that to qualify). Could I do it now, 25 years later? Probably... Maybe...

It is an Entrance exam, nothing more. Many of the Live Fire courses in the Marine Corps are far harder than that particular test. But, It gets harder from there, and the reason that Fort Benning graduates so few Snipers is because the Actual Training is far harder than the entrance exam. But then, that makes sense. Hell, I believe that Marine Sniper Training graduates even fewer than that (I have met more Army and SEAL Snipers than I have Marine Snipers). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


That's because playing sniper takes the jar head away from rushing the hill, as it were (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 2 2014, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 2 2014, 09:04 AM) *
That's because playing sniper takes the jar head away from rushing the hill, as it were (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


And anything removing the "Rushing the Hill" from the Jarhead mentality should be stomped on and eliminated. With Prejudice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But, to be honest... Playing Sniper in the Corps was very enlightening. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Cain
post Jul 2 2014, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 2 2014, 05:27 AM) *
It is an Entrance exam, nothing more. Many of the Live Fire courses in the Marine Corps are far harder than that particular test. But, It gets harder from there, and the reason that Fort Benning graduates so few Snipers is because the Actual Training is far harder than the entrance exam. But then, that makes sense. Hell, I believe that Marine Sniper Training graduates even fewer than that (I have met more Army and SEAL Snipers than I have Marine Snipers). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The point is, 13 dice is not enough to reliably pass the Cold Bore test at 90%. When I first offered the numbers, I left out cover and movement modifiers, because those can vary. I also left out aiming, because you don't know how long you have. In order to make a fair example, I removed as many variables as possible. If you're lucky enough to draw a stationary target, in the open, with plenty of time to set up the shot, you'd have six dice before aiming, which could do it at 90%. But start adding in the variable modifiers, and that drops rapidly. (And don't complain that adding these isn't fair-- you know as well as I do that real combat isn't fair, and our soldiers train for real combat.) It's pretty clear that 13 dice isn't enough to reliably pass the test, at least not at 90% or better.

And like you said-- it's only an entrance exam, or at least a pop quiz. The other tests are a lot harder. That means, in order to reliably pass the tests in sniper basic, you need a lot more than 13 dice. Once you get out of basic, to make it onto a real special forces team, you're in competition with hundreds of other snipers, so you have to shoot even better than that. The test for special forces snipers vary from group to group, but I'm certain they're all a lot harder than the shots they make at Fort Benning.
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Sendaz
post Jul 2 2014, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 2 2014, 01:56 PM) *
The point is, 13 dice is not enough to reliably pass the Cold Bore test at 90%. When I first offered the numbers, I left out cover and movement modifiers, because those can vary. I also left out aiming, because you don't know how long you have. In order to make a fair example, I removed as many variables as possible. If you're lucky enough to draw a stationary target, in the open, with plenty of time to set up the shot, you'd have six dice before aiming, which could do it at 90%. But start adding in the variable modifiers, and that drops rapidly. (And don't complain that adding these isn't fair-- you know as well as I do that real combat isn't fair, and our soldiers train for real combat.) It's pretty clear that 13 dice isn't enough to reliably pass the test, at least not at 90% or better.

And like you said-- it's only an entrance exam, or at least a pop quiz. The other tests are a lot harder. That means, in order to reliably pass the tests in sniper basic, you need a lot more than 13 dice. Once you get out of basic, to make it onto a real special forces team, you're in competition with hundreds of other snipers, so you have to shoot even better than that. The test for special forces snipers vary from group to group, but I'm certain they're all a lot harder than the shots they make at Fort Benning.


And that is the crux of the issue with a dice system like this, whether we apply this to sniper or computer programming.

While the tables call a certain level professional or expert and some players may perform as such there, when we crunch the numbers the variable factor of the dice involved doesn't really matches up to what we can do consistently and repeatedly in RL.

Yes we can buy hits, but that is just not as satisfying though in many ways closer to RL performance.

Is there a better way to run the dice side? Dunno... All systems have their ups and downs and diceless becomes a total bog of situational modifiers.


Now on a lighter note, a letter to home.

Dear Ma & Pa:

Am well. Hope you are. Tell brother Walt & Brother Elmer the Marine Corps beats working for old man Minch by a mile. Tell them to join up quick before maybe all of the places are filled.

I was restless at first because you got to stay in bed till nearly 6 a.m., but am getting so I like to sleep late.

Tell Walt & Elmer all you do before breakfast is smooth your cot and shine some things. No hogs to slop, feed to pitch, mash to mix, wood to split, fire to lay. Practically nothing. Men got to shave but it is not so bad, they git warm water.

Breakfast is strong on trimmings like fruit juice, cereal, eggs, bacon, etc..., but kind of weak on chops, potatoes, ham, steak, fried eggplant, pie, and other regular food. But tell Walt & Elmer you can always sit between two city boys that live on coffee. Their food plus yours holds you till noon, when you get fed again. It's no wonder these city boys can't walk much.

We go on "route" marches, which the Platoon Sergeant says are long walks to harden us. If he thinks so, it is not my place to tell him different. A "route march" is about as far as to our mailbox at home.

Then the city guys gets sore feet and we all ride back in trucks. The country is nice, but awful flat.

The Sergeant is like a schoolteacher. He nags some. The Capt. is like the school board. Majors & Colonels just ride around & frown. They don't bother you none.

This next will kill Walt & Elmer with laughing. I keep getting medals for shooting. I don't know why. The bulls-eye is near as big as a chipmunk and don't move. And it ain't shooting at you, like the Higgett boys at home. All you got to do is lie there all comfortable and hit it. You don't even load your own cartridges. They come in boxes.

Be sure to tell Walt & Elmer to hurry & join before other fellers get into this setup & come stampeding in.

Your loving daughter,

Gail
P.S. Speaking of shooting, enclosed is $200 towards a new barn roof & ma's teeth. The city boys shoot craps, but not very good.


Funny bit is I think I was in tech school with this girl, or some kind of kin cause the above did sound like her. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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MADness
post Jul 2 2014, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE (CaptRory @ Jul 1 2014, 01:25 PM) *
Th upside down smiley? Its from the smiley menu here on the forum.



No, Mr. Saturn with a Battle Axe.
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CaptRory
post Jul 3 2014, 01:16 AM
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PM me your email address and I'll send it to you. I made it myself.
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