Ok, this was extremely helpful. Thanks guys! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

How would allowing players to Initiate Essence (for the purposes of augmentations) affect the game? I was thinking of allowing something like it since Awakened characters theoreticaly can increase their power infinitely.

My thinking goes that the more synthetic gubbins you shove into your body, the less you are connected to your soul (the soul is not diminished, but the 'glue' that attaches it to your body is). You become less (meta)human over time because you lose connection to what it means to be (meta)human.

However with enough dedication, introspection, and practicing empathy (Initiating), you can retain a connection with your soul. Naturally this would require GM approval of your roleplaying in-game.

I think this makes sense thematicaly. I'm not a lore buff when it comes to Shadowrun but I get the impression that some people can come to terms with their essence loss over time, and I *think* it would put cybered characters on an equal footing with Awakened in the long term.

Of course I can't actually find anyone near me to play Shadowrun so I can test this.

I always went with the Astral Blueprint theory-- your Essence is a measure of how close your physical body is to your astral blueprints. The closer they are, the easier ti is for mana to flow from the astral to you.


That would be a bad idea. In order for it to work, it'd have to be open to everyone, which means magical characters could take it too. That would mean they could take augmentations, and then restore the lost Essence, with no net hit to Magic. Combine that with normal initiations, and you'll see a lot of cyber mages and bio adepts in short order.

Just make Deltaware accessible.

I think you're underestimating the balance issue, Elfen. One of the big things about magic is that it requires massive karma investment to get better, late game. Cyberware is karma-free but money expensive. Nuyen is a lot easier for an established street mage or adept to come by, and if he can buy off the negative effects, a massively greater return on investment than power points or spells.

Exactly.

Let's say that the karma costs for restoring Essence and Initiating are similar, in that they scale as you buy it up. That means, after a certain point, raising your magic via Initiation will be very expensive. That means, after a certain point, it's better for a mage or adept to get chromed up, and then offset the loss with karma. Effectively, it's the same as buying back their magic, it's just substantially cheaper.

Making deltaware readily available only makes the problem worse. Not on;y do mages have fewer things to spend their money on (which makes saving up even easier), Deltaware means they get even more bang for their buck. I can tell you from past experience, when mages or adepts get cyber, they always get in in .99 Essence increments-- namely, they always get just shy of one Essence worth, so they lose the minimum amount of Magic and can buy it back easily. Deltaware means you can fit even more toys into that space.

This is the main Problem with the SR Balance of Magic versus Ware.
Characters with magic CAN ALSO GET WARE but Characters with ware usually CAN'T GET MAGIC.
Forbid ware for all awakened and call it a day, THEN you can work out how to get more power to the mundanes . .
Because as it stands, because of the first two lines, everything that helps the mundanes WILL ALSO HELP MAGICIANS.

So... make it so that only 'mundanes' can gain back their essence in this manner, and find a fluff reason to explain why Awakened can not? Something metaphysical.

However figuring out a reason is beyond me at this time of night.

Essence is useless.
Your Maximum Magic Rating is Essence+Initiation Grade.
So with Essence 1+ you can still initiate at will and get more magic.
Because Magic rating is specifically NOT docked to Essence x1.5 as the augmented maximum.
Neither is initiation limited to/by the essence attribute.
Magic does. not. have. such game balance safety features built into it.

Imagine if they had made Attributes for mundanes not limited to natural max x1.5.
A samurai could, if he so chose to burn away his complete essence, go and get level 20? (no idea of the SR4 essence/money-costs) muscle augmentation and toner.
Everybody and their grandmother would cry foul, overpowered, nerf please!
not so with magic. because . . reasons . .

Why beat that poor old dead horse some more?
Yeah, you can initiate as much as you want; no, factually you're not doing it because you're not earning enough karma to go past the first initiation levels and increase your magic, even if your campaign lasts for years.

Not likely in the least, but if I ever win one of those lotteries, I'll host at my expense (travel. accommodation and food [NOT booze]) a session in which I will GM and demonstrate just how easy it is to fairly, logically and within the express rules of SR4A challenge and frighten the magicians and the samurai equally.

Until then, saying it can be done is just farting in the wind, isn't it?

You'd have to slap a "game balance" sticker on it, and then hope your players accept it. Really, that's the only way something like that could work.

However, I'm still of the opinion it wouldn't help. Unless your game is amazingly cash-heavy, odds are that the cybered characters will never get a significant upgrade. SR5 Essence costs are too high, which means they need to afford Beta or Delta to get room for new items. Even in past editions of Shadowrun, cyber upgrades were rare-- the only time I saw someone get a hold of Delta Wired-3 was after some heavy-duty roleplay: he basically had to do several life or death runs for them, and even then he had to pay a pretty penny and *still* ended up owing them his soul.

The game balance, prior to SR5 at least, was that cybered characters could front-load better than the Awakened, while magic had a better rate of advancement. Now, that balance is thrown out the window.


The problem with Cynewulf's suggestion is that magic-using characters can pick and choose. If it's cheaper to get cyber and buy back the Essence, they can do that instead of Initiating.

False - I have several Characters with Additional Magic and 3-5 Initiate Grades.
My Original Adept has Magic 11 (he lost 3 points of Magic due to Augmentations over the years) and Grade 8 Initiation.

What happens is that there's a point of diminishing returns. It becomes more efficient to raise other things. Unfortunately, the more choices you have, the more rapidly you gain power, and adepts have all the options.

True...
And while Adepts can be powerful, I have found that Mystic Adepts are the go-to option for diversified power gain. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In SR5, absolutely. They have at least four options for advancement: raise attributes, raise skills, initiate and buy a PP, and raise Magic to buy a PP. I believe that in SR4.5, mystic adepts could only initiate for extra PP, so it slowed them down a lot.

After the errata, they are back to only being able to get a power point by choosing one instead of a metamagic (although that part of the errata is not as clearly worded as it should be). Which is actually more balanced. Forget the old 2 karma cost to start out with power points - the real imbalance is that raising their Magic gave them a point of Magic for awakened skills and a power point.

It's interesting how mystic adepts were implemented. Rather than adepts who can use magical skills, now they are mages (only lacking astral perception/projection) who have the option of supplementing their abilities with a few power points.

Honestly I'd say a mage lacking perception/projection isn't much of a mage. Granted they can spend 1PP to perceive, but to me that says more "Adept who can use spells".

Mmm. I'd say that physmages/mystic adepts have always been one or the other. Since they first appeared in SR2, the effective builds have always either been an adept with a little magical ability, or a mage with a few adept powers. Sure, you could try for an even split, but the huge array of stats and skills required to be effective meant you were stretched too thin.

What's scary now is that they can be both. Since you don't have to split your Magic anymore, you can have full Magic for Awakened skills and full Adept powers, right from the start. Advancement can get interesting, but on the surface it looks like mystic adepts can front-load better than anyone else.

Most of my Mysads have always been effective even splits (previous editions, have yet to make one in SR5), and they have worked out far better than expected. But in SR5, they are indeed crazy broken, in my mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This isn't really a drawback, honestly. It just means that mystic adepts build like samurai. Front-load all the adept powers they want, then get magic rating from initiation to diversify their toolset.