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BGC Quantity
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pbangarth
post Jul 9 2014, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 9 2014, 02:35 PM) *
Maybe everything from "every other game" onwards is potentially a "Chargen factors in BGC" answer.

Unchecked magic is very powerful, and BGC helps balancing that. What I still don´t like after all those years is the double-dipping (less magic + reduced force), so Filtering is really good to have.

Yes. My Free Spirit PC in Los Angeles made a lot of use of Filtering and Cleansing.
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FuelDrop
post Jul 9 2014, 11:24 PM
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We're starting a pbp game on mars soon. Mana vacuum isn't background count, but it's pretty close.
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Draco18s
post Jul 10 2014, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Jul 9 2014, 07:24 PM) *
We're starting a pbp game on mars soon. Mana vacuum isn't background count, but it's pretty close.


Actually it is. Explicitly.
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Medicineman
post Jul 10 2014, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 8 2014, 12:53 PM) *
Pompeii.
The burning of Dresden.
The sack of Constantinople.
The black death in London.
The Rape of Nanking.
Hiroshima.
Nagasaki.
The French Revolution's bloody reign in Paris.
Wounded Knee.
The Battle of Praga.
All of Cambodia, after Pol Pot's bloody-handed butchers got done.

There isn't a field or flower in all of mainland Europe that hasn't been well watered with blood over the last couple thousand years, and the rest of the world isn't far behind. Humanity is -good- at atrocities.


I wonder what Backgroundcount is in Asamundo

with a Beckgrounddance
Medicineman
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Stahlseele
post Jul 10 2014, 05:54 PM
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Aside from where they make their food and keep the mindless ones, probably pretty low actually i'd guess.
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Glyph
post Jul 11 2014, 02:10 AM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 9 2014, 11:35 AM) *
Maybe everything from "every other game" onwards is potentially a "Chargen factors in BGC" answer.

Unchecked magic is very powerful, and BGC helps balancing that. What I still don´t like after all those years is the double-dipping (less magic + reduced force), so Filtering is really good to have.

Yeah, SR4 really botched background count. It should have been more on par with modifiers such as lighting or cover, a simple dice pool penalty.
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CaptRory
post Jul 11 2014, 03:21 AM
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Where is Background Count listed in 4e? I tried looking for it and got nowhere fast.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 11 2014, 03:29 AM
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QUOTE (CaptRory @ Jul 10 2014, 08:21 PM) *
Where is Background Count listed in 4e? I tried looking for it and got nowhere fast.


Street Magic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 11 2014, 03:30 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 10 2014, 07:10 PM) *
Yeah, SR4 really botched background count. It should have been more on par with modifiers such as lighting or cover, a simple dice pool penalty.


See, I think it works just fine, and as advertised. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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psychophipps
post Jul 11 2014, 03:52 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 10 2014, 09:30 PM) *
See, I think it works just fine, and as advertised. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Agreed. A dice pool penalty really isn't shit what with Edge and all, especially with the 15+ DP monsters we see regular-like on the forum here.
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Uli
post Jul 11 2014, 12:37 PM
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Exactly. In my Chicago campaign, the rat shaman from the Ceezee had to plan how his magic will work, including his sustaining focus from improved reflexes and his devil rat inhabiting allied spirit. While the 4A background count was so intense that I rarely used more than rating 2, the new rules inspire to regularly have ratings 1-3. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Glyph
post Jul 12 2014, 02:44 AM
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Different campaigns, I guess. I wouldn't enjoy playing a mage who had to carefully "plan" how to use his core, basic abilities, or having to pay for a Magic rating I wouldn't actually get to use fully. The rules for background count in SR4 are fine if even rating: 1 background count is relatively rare, but if it is used so commonly that entire cities are assigned a background count, then the penalties are too harsh. I think magic needs balancing factors (overcasting and spirits being two of the biggies), but SR4 background count is like SR5's imbecilic wireless rules - clunky, poorly thought-out rules that suck the fun out of playing a particular type of character.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jul 12 2014, 04:28 AM
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I'm with Glyph on this. A dice pool penalty is quick and easy to use. adjusting the force of your focuses, sustained spells etc just is a hassle. SR5 may be going back to the reduced force thing though it is written kind of unclearly in street magic. With the Back ground count range being 1-24 I think in SR5 a dice pool penalty seems plenty limiting. 1-3 covers what used to just be 1. Personally I only use it when I feel like adding a spot light to the mage by giving them an extra challenge to overcome. Ideally they should balance mages so back ground count is not a balancing factor at all and just a extra set piece to add challenges. Outside of overcasting and spirits it is relatively balanced in 4e, in 5e spirits are even more powerful though the higher drains helps curb overcasting a bit.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 12 2014, 05:41 AM
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I did like the idea of awakened being acclimated to a particular domain, neither hindered nor benefiting from a positive BGC. Makes things a little more interesting, though potentially better for the cyberzombies or changelings that create their own astral haze wherever they go. It'd be an incredible benefit for changelings to become acclimated to their own haze and not suffer from the +4 BGC (or whatever it will be in SR5).
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tisoz
post Dec 4 2014, 10:57 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 7 2014, 05:44 PM) *
@Ryu:
SR3 Magic in the Shadows Page 83 it starts on BGC and on PAge 84 is a little Table:
BGC1:
Any Place where Background Count was briefly or recently generated; (interpretation by me: means BGC does not go away, if it has ever been created?)
The Site of a heated argument or passionate affair, a magicians convention or a bar frequented by the Awakened, an alienating corporate office environment, a hospital, any site where violence was committed or a heroic action taken within the last hour.
(interpretation by me: so, basically mostly anywhere in a modern city then?)

BGC2:
Any place where BGC was generated by a large number of people or over a length of time: a rock concert or riot, a sports game or revival meeting, a maximum security prison or enchanters workshop, a ward for terminal patients or cyberware-clinic, a corporate research facility or large factory (interpretation by me: so still many if not most places in a metroplex then?)

BGC3:
Any place where significant BGC was created in the recent past(last 100 years[interpretation by me: so yes, even before magic so basically anywhere all over the world]):
Major Battlefields, slashed-and-burned forrests, burned-out residential areas, organ-legger chop-shops, most cathedrals, monasteries, lasmaseries, shrines and so on. (interpretation by me: so still many places in a metroplex)

BGC4:
Any place where significant BGC was created and the condition that created it still exists: battlefield that has seen heavy fighting and is still in use, a dragons lair, a heavily polluted area such as a slag heap or strip-mine, sites long and repeatedly associated with strong emotions, such as arlington national cemetery, stonehenge, scenes of sudden mass death such as transportation disasters or terrorist massacres like the chicago shattergraves.

BGC5:
Any site whose bgc was created by an event historical in scope: any place within 5 kilometers of a nuclear blast site(hiroshima, nagasaki, chicago, bikini etc; any genocidal death camps or gulags such as auschwitz(which, btw, SR4 WAR i think assigned a BGC of 8 . . and then made people go in to get a nazi administrators scalpell because they did not dare actually use the name mengele and to get to it you'd have to fight jew-zombies/spirits of the deceased prisoners) or the native american re-education and detention centers , any lethally toxic areas or radioactive waste storage sites.



So, yes, going by that i feel perfectly justified in thinking that most places in a megaplex should be BGC1 or 2 with spikes of 3 and 4.

this is ONLY the table.
i am NOT typing the whole BGC set, which is about 1.5 DINA4 Pages of Text.

SR4 BGC RULES:
Street Magic Pages 118-122 with a BGC "table" on Page 121


MitS p. 84
QUOTE
Most background counts last only a few hours or days at the most. The more potent the event, however, the more durable the traces. Once the source of the background count is gone, the impression will fade over time, disappearing in the space of a few hours or several days or weeks, at the gamemaster's discretion and depending on the intensity of the original impression.


So BGC does go away for many areas. The description of BGC 1 states "within the last hour" so I usually figure it fades away in about an hour. For some of the higher BGCs, I try to think if I were a participant in the BGC causing event, how long would the feeling stay with me after the event? Like going to a college basketball game where your school upset the #1 ranked school, you and the people on campus are usually feeling pretty good about it for a day to several days.

For longer duration events, it is more subjective. I keep thinking of examples that would fade relatively quickly, except the event gets repeated. Such as religious ceremonies or working in a cubicle farm. The BGC would normally fade by the next ceremony or work shift, but the repeated event starts influencing the recovery time.

Places that still have strong BGCs after 100 years are likely not going to fade any time soon, but if they do it is going to be by a point, not entirely.

As far as applying BGC modifiers, I do it if there is already a BGC, or on the next action after a BGC event has taken place, like using magic, or violence accompanied by strong emotion. (So it is better to calmly shoot someone in the face and hope they die before they know it and can react with strong emotion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) I also only apply the highest BGC. For example if the PCs are in a cathedral (BGC 2) and cast a spell (BGC 1) it is still a BGC 2, not 2+1.
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pbangarth
post Dec 4 2014, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz @ Dec 4 2014, 05:57 AM) *
As far as applying BGC modifiers, I do it if there is already a BGC, or on the next action after a BGC event has taken place, like using magic, or violence accompanied by strong emotion. (So it is better to calmly shoot someone in the face and hope they die before they know it and can react with strong emotion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) I also only apply the highest BGC. For example if the PCs are in a cathedral (BGC 2) and cast a spell (BGC 1) it is still a BGC 2, not 2+1.


Interesting idea. You have great power at your mental command, but after you wield it, not only does it Drain you but it sickens you as well. There's some fun in that for the GM.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 4 2014, 02:19 PM
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Right, that is actually something i never thought to consider O.o
Basically, every time you cast a combat spell or any high force spell, you create your own little pocket of BGC . .
Same for the sammy opening up his fully automatic grenade launcher on a bunch of enemy goons or something. .

As for the mage . . i don't like mages and magic, let's get that out of the way right up front now but . .
If he creates the BGC, would it not, kinda by definition, be aspected towards him specifically and towards his type of magic generally?


And for the record: going by the created by the big masses of people i still maintain that every city should be covered in BGC from that alone technically.
Because even if the BGC from that would go away over time as stated by tisoz above, the masses of people would not go away and thus the BGC would not go away either, as long as the people are there . . and depopulating an entire city would probably create some sort of BGC itself i guess . .

And of course BGC only fucks over magic type characters, because it was implemented specifically as a balancing factor for magic use by everybody . .
Kinda like they did later on with the Noise Level for Matrix-Based characters because suddenly the all wireless stuff seemed to make them a tad bit powerfull i guess and to a lesser extent the essence rules and the general prevalence of all kinds of cameras and security scanners everywhere for the machine based samurai.
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sk8bcn
post Dec 4 2014, 04:48 PM
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Maybe they should lighten the table for SR5 and affect the limits of magic users.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 4 2014, 05:01 PM
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Hmm, not sure if that would actually do anything . .
Usually, actually hitting your limit is kinda hardish if i got that right.
No idea though, because i know fuck all about the SR5 rules and mechanics, specifically the new ones.
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pbangarth
post Dec 4 2014, 05:49 PM
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One of the mainstays of my long-standing argument that Shadowrun is not overpowered by magic is that there are lots of built-in limitations, BGC being one of them. I've played a Free Spirit in LA, and the mess of background there was constantly screwing her over. She zipped out to the desert every once in a while to get some 'fresh air'.

And now I'm playing an adept on Mars! O_o
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Stahlseele
post Dec 4 2014, 06:45 PM
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Yees . . if the BGC were used as written in the book by more people, less people would complain about magic i guess . .
But as i said before, i for exmaple have very rarely seen BGC used anywhere else but on plot important occassions.
Which is the main point of this thread here.
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Glyph
post Dec 5 2014, 05:11 AM
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The trouble with BGC is that it is a flat penalty, meaning it affects min-maxed builds less, which encourages those builds while making less-powerful builds nonviable. Someone with 10 dice losing 5 of those dice will be hurting a lot more than someone with 20 dice losing 5 of those dice.

I played street-level hermetic sorcerers with a wide range of skills in SR3, even though you could take A: Resources and the right Totem to pile on the bonus dice. Why? Because the baseline sorcerer was a playable option.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 5 2014, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 4 2014, 10:01 AM) *
Hmm, not sure if that would actually do anything . .
Usually, actually hitting your limit is kinda hardish if i got that right.
No idea though, because i know fuck all about the SR5 rules and mechanics, specifically the new ones.


Not all that hard to hit reasonable Limits. I do it multiple times in every game session. With Limits of 5, 6 and 7 even.
Tracked it over 3 game sessions. I broke Limits about 57% of the time over those three game sessions (No Edge Expenditures).
I hate Limits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 5 2014, 03:52 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 4 2014, 11:45 AM) *
Yees . . if the BGC were used as written in the book by more people, less people would complain about magic i guess . .
But as i said before, i for exmaple have very rarely seen BGC used anywhere else but on plot important occassions.
Which is the main point of this thread here.


I agree with this. Our GM's use it freely, and Mages are generally kept in check because of it... Well, that and a few other things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Dec 5 2014, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Dec 4 2014, 10:11 PM) *
The trouble with BGC is that it is a flat penalty, meaning it affects min-maxed builds less, which encourages those builds while making less-powerful builds nonviable. Someone with 10 dice losing 5 of those dice will be hurting a lot more than someone with 20 dice losing 5 of those dice.


True, but that is a Game expectation that needs to be set and understood by all involved. If I know that I am going to run into BGC of 1-2 on regular occasions, then I can plan for it (by making sure I am not just slinging mojo all the time because I need a fallback option on occasion).
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