i doubt you're familiar with him if you think his technomancer has 20 dice in anything.

frankly, i'd be fairly surprised if his technomancer had 12 dice in his main area of focus (which may be difficult to discern... he tends to favour being able to do a lot of things moderately well, rather than focusing on any one thing. as i recall from when he posted his initial build, "technomancer" is probably a somewhat deceptive name... the character *is* a technomancer, and is capable of hacking, but the original concept might have been better defined as, say, "information gatherer" (basically, he was a corporate spy for someone, then his contact burned him iirc...)

furthermore, his group tends to be rather atypical... i get the impression that having a massive dice pool is not only not required, but to some extent discouraged unless you've got a story reason to explain why you're one of the top 0.1% in your field in the entire world.

of course, that's just based on my initial viewing of his character and the general impression i have of his group... i expect by now his character has a bit more karma and has most likely spent some of that karma on acknowledging that he needs certain skills to run the shadows effectively. so, for example, he may have submerged once or twice, or decided that his initial skill levels in infiltration or athletics were not going to cut it.

That's a lot of words there based on missing the point of what I was saying. Tymeaus and I just had that discussion in another thread, bemoaning the difficulty of scaling in Shadowrun given that the base character creation can swing so heavily as to easily generate characters with dice pools in their primary abilities that are so good that anything which is even moderately challenging for them has a good chance of accidentally killing someone else in the group.

It's only "best of the best" if you go with the stats as presented in Core, and subscribe to the notion that "Rating 6 is a world-class professional".
As correctly pointed a bit above, if you want to challenge your characters who are actually combat-capable, your "best of the best" becomes "pretty average at best". Same as, you know, a hacker is unlikely to hack Rating 3 hosts too much.

The team's hacker also died on Turn1 IP2 to the fire returned. How is that a sustainable tactic, again?

Or with precisely no additional investment whatsoever you can stay out of the line of fire and do your job while the specialists in combat do theirs (and if you're doing your job right, you could even potentially avoid a firefight altogether!)
As a side dish, you can hack people's stuff in peace and comfort because that doesn't require them noticing you, unlike, you know, firing guns in their direction.

Are you seriously trying to say there's a significant difference between a ganger as a goon, and a corpsec goon?

The decker staying in the van has always been a problem. SR3 dealt with it the best, by simply making offline storage a big deal. For some reason, it doesn't seem to exist in SR4.5 or 5e. SR3 also made combat deckers viable, so they could participate in combat. Why do you assume that all a decker can do is punch deck? It's not that hard to make a decker who's a decent shot as well as great in the Matrix.

Yep. For instance, a HTR team goon will have IP boosters implanted, automatic weaponry and decent armour (not to mention a lieutenant providing magical support, as well as corp spiders and riggers covering the matrix and controlling drones).

In 4e, it's called "wireless-negating paint" or "Faraday cages". The only problem is hardly anybody seriously expects hackers to be infiltrators, too.

Did you just try and redefine "goon"? Because I'm pretty sure you started by calling them 1IP goons. You're shifting the goalposts.

You're kidding. First of all, wifi-negating paint is easily bypassed, and I have never encountered either in a published Shadowrun adventure.

Second, you're still assuming that all a decker can do is punch deck. You can make a combat decker fairly easily, and a Covert Ops decker isn't too hard. Why do you assume that deckers must be useless outside the Matrix?

How did a thread which OP is asking for help getting started in SR turn into another thread about Hacking Wireless Ware and Gear? Again? Can we not dump all that stuff in one thread and actually get back to posting about other stuff? All the How Woud You Do X, House Rule discussion and setting discussion were pretty cool, but it's always coming down to this same grind of Combat Hacking.

Except that you are making assumptions here, Binarywraith. The technomancer I mentioned has 10 Dice in Pistols... That is a pretty far cry from you assumption of 20 dice.

Burned Corporate Spy with Technomantic Abilities is the most correct description. Jaid... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Technomancer Primary Hacking is 14-16 (Hot Mod) Dice. And yes, I do favor a more generalized capability. More skills in the mostly competent range over 2 skills at maxed efficiency. Works out best.
Character has 50 Karma under the belt at this point. No submergences as of yet (Still waiting for follow up Matrix book to see what will be worth it and what won't), though I am working on my first. She is an interesting character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not sure about your games, but offline storage was HUGE in our games in SR4A. There is absolutely no reason that would disappear. *shrug*

Infiltration was the BEST way to be a Hacker in SR4A. All this hoopla of Hackers staying miles away was something that I NEVER experienced in the many years of SR4/A.

We're talking past each other again. I was poking fun at Fatum's apparent implication that being 'combat capable' requires such dice pools along with heavy augmentation and high-end gear.

Ahhh... *There you go, whizzing past me again...* [Waves]
Sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Do you really fell that trying to misquote me (for the second time in a row) contributes to productive discussion? What is a goon is defined pretty definitely in the Core, btw: a nameless character with no Edge score of their own.

Well, it's not like offline systems are bypassed by some other methods (like infiltrating the facility and plugging a wire in). And nothing's stopping you from having wireless completely off on the secure systems, if you so wish - after all, in 4e the Matrix still works according to something resembling RL logic, instead of being powered by handwavium like in 5e.
As for published Shadowrun adventures, yeah, these have a bunch of oversights, are you going to form your understanding of the ruleset based on how it's used in these instead of based on what it actually allows you to do? If so, do you drop Force... what was it, 12?.. spirits on your characters at the high point of the module?

Right, you just spend a bunch of already scarce resources on becoming a half-decent fighter and a half-decent infiltrator, which leaves you a half-decent hacker, instead of being good at what you're actually supposed to be doing. So instead of getting, say, 4 or 5 IP in the Matrix, you'll be getting more than 1 IP in meatspace which is not your area of expertise to begin with.


When the characters built for combat are like that, that's what being "combat-capable" becomes. Or are you suggesting that the sammies should not encounter adequate challenges? Or actually, it's the same for any other archetype, dicepools in teens are the norm, not an exception.
And before you argue that this is not how Shadowrun is supposed to be played, I'll counter with the mages' capabilities, spirits with their immunities, and the stats for paraanimals, all of which define what the rest of the runners should be on the level with.

I misquoted you? Are you saying that you *didn't* start talking about "1IP goons"? Oh, wait a minute....


You were talking about all goons, not just deckers, who can have more than one action *and* be good in combat. You keep missing that fact.


When using AR, you use your meatspace init. So it's not that hard to get a good Matrix and physical initiative. Being a decent shooter is easy in SR5: Quickness 4, Skill 4 with spec. That's 10 dice, which is greater than the typical Lieutenant in SR5. It's really not that hard.


Looking over the SR4.5 Master Index, I see no reference to Offline Storage, or Storage memory in general. "Memory" only gives you Memory tests. Rules for it simply don't exist.

so how is it that the decker is automatically dead in IP 1? are all your NPCs gleefully taking bullets to the face just so they can shoot the guy who is, as you claim, not a major threat? are they just ignoring the street samurai and any spirits in the group?

furthermore, the only way you're getting 4-5 IPs in the matrix is... actually, scratch that. you aren't. that was doable in 4th, but it is literally not possible in 5th to get 5, and if you get 4 it's because you got extremely lucky and have obscenely good stats.

not just that, but you shouldn't even be using anything other than AR to access the matrix if a firefight is going on. you need to be mobile, or you are going to be dead as soon as the other side gets even the faintest idea of where you are (read: as soon as you fail a single sleaze test, or shortly after you make a successful attack test). the *last* thing I want to be when the lead (and especially AOE attacks like grenades and indirect spells) start flying is barely able to perceive the meat world or act in it.

so more realistically, it's your standard meat body speed hacking vs your standard meat body speed shooting. and shooting will almost always have more impact, sooner, than hacking (the exceptions are when you hack the environment, which is not in any way dependent on anyone putting their spinal column or eyeballs on the internet).

:eyeroll:

Let me rephrase that incredibly obvious sentence for you: by spending "a few points" on combat abilities for your hacker, as previously suggested, you're turning him into a 1 IP goon with an attack pool too small to matter. Which is suboptimal.
I frankly fail to see how can this be misunderstood or twisted into "talking about all goons not just deckers" etc.

Enjoy your permanent -2 penalty to Matrix actions compared to the normal hackers, as well as never being able to get the fifth IP (and likely not having the Essence for hacking implants if getting the fourth).
That's not a handicap at all, right?

Could there be no reference to memory because all forms of storage are supposed to have nigh infinite memory space available? Wireless negation is in that index, btw.


On IP 2, not 1: his opponent spends IP1 on full defense and in cover, while the rest of the turn is purely his dominion to do what he wants with the hacker.

My NPCs try to minimize the damage they receive, and thus, maximize the damage they do to their opposition to get the number of damage sources down as quickly as possible.
That involves incapacitating the targets who are visibly more likely to suffer from their attacks and then piling on the remaining ones.

It's ridiculously easy to get 5 IPs in the Matrix in the Fourth if you set your mind to it, and in the Fifth the Matrix is beyond salvaging.

Dunno, as for me, the last place I want to be when the lead starts flying is anywhere near.

So, you're saying 5e Matrix is broken and the changes made to it do not achieve the design goals? Way to prove my point that a new GM should not be using 5e.

No, seriously, go re-read the books. Look at the NPCs as built, and the sample characters. Dice pools of that size are not 'normal', no matter how you'd like to justify cheesing the system. Even in SR5, with higher skill caps. it takes a lot of min-maxing to get a combat dice pool above 12 or so at creation using the standard priorities.

- the 5th edition matrix is no worse than the 4th edition matrix. it's probably actually mostly better, unless you're a technomancer in which case you just got screwed.

- i don't think you understand how suppressing fire works. i spend *one action*. until i take my next action (which, for a 1 IP character, is next turn) anyone in the suppressed area can get shot. not "anyone can get shot on their first action, but is afterwards safe", but simply "everyone". if you are in the area, you risk getting hit if you move out from cover at all. period. you can go full defense on your first action if you want, that's fine. on the second action, when you pop out to do something to me, you deal with suppression, risk getting shot, and take a penalty to your actions. that happens every time you take an action. period. it doesn't matter how many times you go on full defense, when you stop doing anything other than hiding behind hard cover, you risk getting shot. it doesn't matter how many actions you take, on each one you risk getting shot. suppressing fire is the poor man's IP booster, and it is a powerful tool for leveling the playing field.

whether you are in 4th edition or 5th edition, you have better things to do with your time than try to hack someone's gear. that remains true whether there are stupid wireless bonuses in play, or not. in either edition, a minimal investment in being able to use a gun will net you more benefit than hacking, and the benefit comes earlier than hacking. this is slightly less true in 5th edition, but still remains true; i can put a bullet into you on action 1, while it will take 2-3 actions minimum to hack anything (comparatively, in 4th edition it's more likely a question of how many combat turns before i can have any hope of hacking anything, so really, if you think 5th edition sucks, i don't know how you can be convinced the 4th edition matrix encouraged hacking combat gear, particularly since in 4th edition there was never any need to have gear wireless for anyone in the first place; if you're up against the tir ghosts, you probably didn't have any wireless gear to target in the first place).

also, just because the players (or rather, some of them) are close to as good as elite corporate HTR teams in combat doesn't mean it's appropriate to make all their opposition into corporate HTR teams. quantity has a quality of its own, after all.

As demonstrated by several people, it's trivial to make a decker with multiple actions in Sr5, who also has a decent dice pool for attacking.


You know, I think I see the problem. You keep using "IP", but those don't exist in SR5. You're cherrypicking the worst rules from both editions.

Yeah, the stat blocks for the sample characters are absolutely helpless, no doubt. That's a commonly encountered issue with SR. I have to remind you in the fifth a few of the sample characters contradict the RAW, so taking these as indicatory of anything can be a bit naive.
Now look at the stats for paraanimals - it takes a single Gabriel hound or barghest to down even an optimized street sam.
Putting your skill points into the skills fit for your archetype, getting a specialization and a few implants fit for it already easily propels you into the teens. Say, for firearms: skill 5, specialization +2, agility 5 (which can easily get much higher with implants), smartgun +2. Blam 14. That's not "min-maxing", that's kindergarten child play.


Haha, oh wow. I'll just direct you to the topic discussing the Fifth. It has what, a couple thousand posts decrying the failings of that subsystem? Should we rediscuss them all anew?

First, you're hit once at most per a suppressive fire burst laid down, at base DV - which after soak is never life-threatening. Second, if you're in full cover or drop prone, you're not hit under any circumstances. Third, going on full defense allows you to waltz into and out of the suppressive fire zone - not quite as comfy as your own bedroom, but hardly any more threatening. Simply put, suppressive fire is a non-issue.

It's just that one edition twists your hands to make your gear hackable is all.
Oh, and in whatever editions hackers have better things to do with their lives than get into a firefight.

It also puts you into significantly more danger than hacking, while not providing any tangible benefit to the party.

First, hacking on the fly in SR4AE is an extended test with a period of 1 Complex Action, and a hacker has 3 to 5 IP in the Matrix.
Second, never have I claimed that 4e encourages hacking gear, please try to keep track; just that unlike the fifth, its matrix is workable and makes a modicum of sense.

I doubt the players are; their characters might be. As for quantity vs quality: dropping two 1 IP goons upon a character usually produces much more problems for him than dropping one 2 IP goon (more health, potentially more damage per turn, etc). So for the scenario with a hacker discussed above, fighting against two opponents is even worse.


And will be permanently crippled for that?

I might be using "IP" because I'm firmly competent only in 4e; but it's news for me that these do not exist in SR5, please tell me more. What's on page 158 of the Core, then?
Oh, and it'd be very interesting to see where I appeal to "the worst rules" from 5e other than pointing out that it's entirely made up of "the worst rules", which haven't been edited even to the point of not contradicting each other.

Where will you be permanently crippled? You haven't shown that. Please, using the SR5 rules, cite page numbers that state wired reflexes "permanently cripples" you in the matrix.


Not IP. That's a failed mechanic from SR4.5. They went back to SR3 style initiative, where you subtract 10 from your score after you go. So, in order to get multiple actions, you need a higher initiative score and more dice. Since the max you can have is 5d6, I believe that 5 actions per turn is impossible.

Except that your Decker needs to be competent at other things, or he is a liability. And it is NOT hard to be competent (though it IS hard to be top .001% in the world and still be competent in other things). My Cyberlogician (SR4/A) had 3 IP physical and 4 IP Matrix AT START, expanded to 5 IP Matrix by the end of his career (not to mention that 95% of the time he hacked form AR rather than VR). It is NOT that hard to do.

I believe that someone actually posted a character for 5th that was potentially capable of 5 IP. All you need is a minimum Initiative score of 11 and 5D6 (Maxed out) to receive 5 IP (11+30=41=5 Actions). I have seen higher Initiative scores than 11.

Page 230, the second paragraph.
The tables on pages 65, 439 (the one on the right), 246 and 456.

>"Combat Turns are broken up into a series of Initiative Passes"
>IP do not exist
Okay, got ya.


Sure, he needs to be. In things like Electronic Warfare, Hardware, or, if there's no dedicated specialist, rigging. Decker has a large sphere of responsibility as an archetype, so there is always stuff that's part of this sphere to sink points into instead of trying to be a jack of all trades.