I was thinking about this this morning after having read this thread the night before. I really did feel like 4th edition was very divisive because there were so many people who'd poured so much into developing, expanding, and tweaking 3rd edition. Somehow the design choice was not to optimize the popular 3rd edition based on the extensive analysis out there, but rather to change the ruleset to something different. So in retrospect, it seems inevitable that the forum would become less active when so much of the energy before had been centered around 3rd edition.

Maybe I'm not remembering so clearly anymore, but was there a time when an SR3 revision project had gotten kicked off this forum in order to support people taking up 4th edition or something like that? Again, I don't really remember, but I feel like I might have a vague memory about this.

So, I guess that the way to revitalize the forum is to invent a time machine, go back and change SR4 such that it's a revision and statistical improvement of SR3 (after all, that's what new editions are for, right? Bugfixes and improvement of the game engine?), and then that would be minimally disruptive to this forum.

If it's too difficult or expensive to go back in time and change history, maybe now that the 4th and 5th edition cats are out of the bag, have some kind of archive here of SR3 analysis, house rules, statistical studies, and so on? Let this place be like the SR3 archive for people who want to play a very statistically considered game that maintains the look and feel of 80s retrofuturism?

EDIT: I mean, if someone wanted to design a really, really good campaign that was really thought out statistically and they knew exactly what everything was doing, you'd think they'd be better able to do that with SR3 than with any other system.

I've used the SR3 ruleset for non SR settings in the past...it can work great for present-day type adventures. It was always better than say, D20 modern if you wanted the game to be a little more realistic. It was also faster and easier to run than say Phoenix Command which seemed like a paper and pencil powered attempt at implementing Rainbow Six 3.

If there were some kind of SR3 wiki attached to this site, I feel like that would let people come back and post their campaigns they want to share, ideas for house rules, and all this kind of thing.

I find it bitterly ironic that several people have suggested the way to improve dumpshock is to fix SR5.

:sigh:

As I pointed out in the other thread, other forums are doing well and are healthy.

I know I personally have been gunshy about posting a new topic because I anticipated my argument or topic would get derailed. I totally get the lassiez faire moderation (I mean that literally). But you can't have your cake and eat it too. As the shadowrun board with the least strict moderation, users (and I am not calling anyone out specially here) who are abrasive or adversarial well tend to drift towards here to post their abrasive opinions. Reddit is able to avoid this because the community can self moderate to some degree by downvoting. The official boards lock threads or ban people. I think some more active level of moderation would help here. My guess is that 10% of users post 50% of the content and cause 90% of the problem.

Maybe PM warnings? "Cool it", followed by "last warning", followed by a one week ban, followed by a permaban?

Honestly, the moderation team needs to decide what they want. DS can continue like this for a while. But there are people who aren't coming back. How many people's last post was in a thread where they were arguing with one of the problem posters?

TL;DR I don't think it's the editions. That's an easy straw man to blame while ignoring that Shadowrun is popular elsewhere. There is an issue with the forum itself that needs to be addressed, if retaining users is a goal. I am not claiming I know what precisely is wrong, but I've proposed some theories.

PS after my long, critical post I have a practical suggestion. I tend to use the "view new posts" button a lot, so dividing the board into more discrete categories wouldn't really effect me much.

Eh I don't get all this talk about problem posters or "the atmosphere". The arguments were one of the hilarious/entertaining aspects of the forum for me. Who can ever forget the hilarity of Creepwoodrun and the zingers that followed? I personally giggle if I see someone going totally apoplectic over interpretation of rules because it's so silly. I find it highly entertaining.

I think I remember some mod scolded me or something for posting too much, or posting about Roulette in General Gaming onetime or something like that. DSF doesn't strike me as a particularly lightly moderated place. Clearly, there is some moderation activity.

I mean, you wouldn't want to post somewhere that the moment someone says something critical they get censured or something. That would be totally boring.

I've posted in or read probably between 20 and 50 forums over the years. DS is either very lightly moderated, or it's so unobtrusive that I'm missing it entirely. If you want an example of a crazy heavily moderated forum check out "warthunder". They lock threads like crazy over there, from mild criticism to any speculation about releases. I'm not referring to pulling spam or stuff like that, that's an admin issue that isn't really under discussion (although thanks to the mods for keeping that under control).

First - Shev, I know what you mean about this seeming familiar. Seems like we had a very similar conversation and debate around the time of SR 4. Not to say that SR 5 is inherently the problem, but edition changes tend to stir the pot, and a lot of people tend to get angry. Sometimes they just don't come back.

I personally am not looking at this as a Save DS from Time and Degradation. We knew for example that when CGL opens their board that there would eventually be a down tick here. No biggie, we're not closing doors or anything. But like the arguments that spurred the last time we had this discussion, it's a good idea to clear the air a little and address problems, real, perceived, or possibly deluded.

I doubt that we're likely to subdivide the forums by edition. Don't quote me because I'm not the only mod, just the one posting right now. Dividing a little by topics or style might be a possibility, but that goes back to Kyrel said about the amount of threads in general. I've been seeing that myself the past few months. My primary concern is that Dr. Z is right and that there's a lack of threads because of the perception of what posters might run into. That is a problem to mem and something worth stepping on some of the more aggressive posts for.

As to our style of moderation, over the years we've looked at it a number of ways on how to handle it. As most of you know when there's an inflammatory post, we almost always leave it where it is, and send the poster a PM Warning. It's rarely public. When it requires something more direct we post in the thread. Looking through our out right quarantined threads we have hidden away, the most recent was in regards to an account deletion, followed by a thread over the same old arguments about CGL. That was in 2010. Everything else has been phishing and spam. So yeah we tend to try and be as hands off as possible.

The last time that changed was the last time we stepped up our work to bring things back down from "caustic" to "fairly civil". We posted Warnings in threads more , and Warned more often. There's some posters that aren't here anymore. I've been on DS since '05 and a mod for most of that time. I can count off the top of my head four people in all that time we've actually banned. One literally asked to be banned, and we let him back in later.
.... Then banned him again when he started acting the ass hat. *shrug*

So , step it back up time? We can do that.

I will retract my proposal to split editions for most of the reasons others stated.

Maybe it will take a bit more attention on posters' part to tag threads as 5th Ed, or on everyone elses part to accept that 5th Ed is the default. It also takes just a second to remember what edition a thread is tagged and not offer a solution based on the rules of a different edition. This includes complaining that 'X' edition is broken and 'A' edition works better.

You would think so, but unfortunately the world is filled with people who apparently think that the fact that something has been a certain way for a while means it MUST change. This happens in everything from soft drinks (New Coke), to MMOs (Star Wars Galaxies NGE) to yes, our beloved RPGs. Hell, I can name three other exaamples besides Shadowrun just off the top of my head:

1. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It was never a huge title, but it's been around almost as long as the wargame (the late 80s). The first edition lasted some twenty odd years, until 2006. When second edition came out, it was a refinement and improvement on the setting and system, and well-received. Then 3rd edition hit, and it got turned into a board game. For people used to playing on the Internet, playing without physical tokens and fiddly bits, or just playing with their own dice it was not a fun expansion. Add in the fact that the whole box cost some $130 at release and you got a pretty polarizing edition. It's effectively killed the product: FFG stopped producing product for the line roundabout 3 years ago, and only admitted that no more were coming in the last year. The community just wasn't big enough to survive being split like that.

2. World of Darkness. I don't know nearly as much about this one because I don't play any in that setting. What I gather is that oWoD just got too filled up with metaplot and was far too difficult for a beginner to get into, so they did this whole "end of the World" thing and came out with nWoD. I've heard mixed reviews, but it does seem like WW's star has long faded since the days of oWoD.

3. DnD. The Big One. Just as we have endured our own 3 vs. 4th split, the DnD crowd had theirs. And BOY was it nasty. Like our third edition, DnD's 3rd had ruled the roost for a very long time. A lot of time and effort had gone into developing the system and the myriad settings that sprang from it. When 4th came around and basically changed EVERYTHING, a lot of people were upset, to put it mildly. However, DnD 3rd had one thing going for it that, sadly, Shadowrun 3rd did not: the Open Gaming License. Imagine if all of our freelancers had been able to pool together and keep on releasing rules and setting for 3rd under a different brand name? That's basically what Pathfinder is, and for quite a while it actually replaced DnD as the top-selling RPG out there. Fans spoke with their wallet, and they were heard. DnD 5th edition is basically "Apology Edition," and looks like it might actually reunite the fractured DnD fandom.


Writing that last bit, I wonder if the intent behind SR 5th was the same. I can see in some cases where they tried to bring back elements of 3rd (deckers, namely), but I think part of the problem they faced is that SR is not just a system, but a setting. In any case, I still wonder if a hypothetical 6th edition could unite us. It would have to be, as someone suggested, a complete reboot. They'd have to accept that Shadowrun is not our alternate future, but an alternate timeline: it's becoming our alternate present, and one day our alternate past.




That's an excellent suggestion. There can't be an SR Pathfinder without the OGL, but there's nothing stopping us from creating free fan content to keep things going. The sooner we accept that "official" Shadowrun likely isn't getting better anytime soon, the sooner we can start reviving and creating resources.

nWOD has been really, really hit or miss. It essentially murdered Werewolf as a game, and Vampire just changed the labels on the tins, but it did end up in a very playable and interesting Changeling game. Regardless, though, it killed the company. None of the new stuff held a candle to the oWoD as far as popularity goes. Hence after the CCP buyout and following economic failure, White Wolf is no longer in the RPG business, and essentially only exists to be a rightsholder so they can license out the World of Darkness properties.

The way you mention the D&D split is interesting, given that it spawned Pathfinder, a massively successful game in its own right which only came about because a group of fans and writers capitalized on the fanbase not wanting what WotC was selling in 4e. I rather wish we'd been in the position to do the same, unfortunately Shadowrun is a very distinctive setting that can't really be turned into generic cyberpunk to dodge copyright without losing much of what makes it a good game.

I used to come daily to read (and often comment on) the rules discussions. For whatever that is worth I do not care about 5e (reasons withheld for reasons). Topics like "how to run a run" are still present, but after a decade or so you learn to do that, or you won´t. So what do I still need an SR forum for?

- I like to help people along with their game. Edition-centric I can´t handle 5e due to lack of familiarity, and we don´t seem to get many of the new SR players. This might be because we discuss the current rules less. A possible solution would be to write more about runs and campaigns without talking rules. The idea to make runs into novels might be a start.

- The powers-that-be are no longer as present as they used to be - or at all. Those who remain are here "privately". Laying claim to the past is fruitless regarding new input.



What can be done by organization? Don´t split the main forum (current traffic is manageable), maybe reintroduce an off-topic forum to create a community of SR players outside the game (politics IS an interesting topic if you read the news at all). Stop negativity regarding the current set of rules cold. We need fresh blood, and we need to keep the old.

Not exactly sure where you got this information from. Both cWOD and nWOD are going like gangbusters. Yes, White Wolf, itself, is no longer an entity, but Onyx Path is holding the licenses and is producing content for both iterations of the game world. They are extremely popular and both contain very strong game lines. nWOD is even getting 2nd Editions for all their game lines and they are simply amazing.

Maybe it's that Dumpshock is experiencing a shrinking market share of a shrinking market. Reddit is a juggernaut, and "official" things may have an innate advantage at attracting new people unfamiliar with what's out there. The thing to do is to use our collective expertise and plan runs against competing forums.

• The Shadowrun reddit has a nice list of online resources. We could link to them, and see how many we can persuade to link back to us. That might give us more google juice so that searches for "shadowrun forum" have DS at the top rather than other places. Also, users might come here for just such a list.
• Could we get tools to play online here? Chat, dice, char sheets, maps, etc.
• If we see a question in other forums that has been well-discussed here, post a link there to the thread here.

I'm trying to think of what would constitute "Bad Things" in terms of creating fan content. The main big no-no is, of course, charging for it. On the heels of that you have "Masquerading as an official product", which I think could be gotten around by something as simple as "unofficial" in the title: "The Unofficial Guide to Vehicular Combat," "The Unofficial Guide to San Francisco," etc.

I think we could do it, the question is if we have the energy and gumption from enough of us to create said content. Maybe a list of the things about 3rd that need to be improved. I'm also sure we have old stuff can can be dusted off, I'm pretty sure at least Cain has alternate vehicular combat rules.

A fanmade 3.5 project would go a long way to holding my attention back on DS.

I'm not convinced on the "Shrinking Market" argument, mostly because I've been hearing it for years. I've seen things flow and change but they don't seem to be getting smaller in the UK. Tabletop gaming of a lot of varieties is a growing industry (mostly through the high quality boxed games out there now) with things like Game of Thrones and WoW still feeding things too. Geek culture is slipping more into the limelight and while there is an issue of Online vs FLGS sales etc the industry doesn't look like its going away.

As for theDumpshock improvements? I think done of the other threads hold the key with Hosted Fan Content being a thing (I used to dig through the Magespace stories from the Harlequin series campaign on Winterhawks Magespace all the time). If I knew more how to do it I'd be posting my house rule adjustments to 5th along with other things on a website. Also there seems to have been a recent surge in activity in attempt to address this very thing.

Hey, like it or not, I'm just giving my own personal reasons for why I've been absent, and I doubt I'm alone. I never posted on the other forums, and have an unused account on Reddit. We do not have the exposure Reddit does, nor are we the mouthpiece for a company who uses their own forums as a way to get the yes men all pumped up.

We are, I believe, a more distinguished group, possibly a little elitist at times. We tear into the rules to weed out weaknesses and measure strengths. We are hard on the setting because we know what it's been in the past and want it to be better. So after several years of really bad management, of having Catalyst pretty much shit all over the IP, you're damn straight you can expect some membership attenutation.

Without Reddit's volume or Catalyst's willingness to appease folks who just don't know any better, we're always going to be a fraction of a fraction. The things that made this community prosper were that we were the only game in town (before the official boards) and that the game was beautiful and high quality. Both of those things have been taken from us.

The sad fact is I doubt Catalyst is going to start making a better game just to make Dumpshock a vibrant community again.

Wow.

You don't believe predating the official forums (and at one point essentially being the official forum) lends any distinguishment? I mean, a lot of it is faded glory since a lot of the old veterans and freelancers don't frequent the place anymore, but we still have quite a few old-timers around.

And I'm assuming you're definitely on-board with the elitism bit (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I recall reading Frank Trollman tried to make a "new" Shadowrun. No idea if the project ever got off the ground.

But the not-Shadowrun game closest to Shadowrun is Eclipse Phase. And while not a bad game by any means it hasn't caught on nearly as much as Shadowrun.

Anyway, not to discourage people from trying, because it would be really cool to see new fantasy/cyberpunk world that could compete with Shadowrun. But I highly question if the dumpshock community can out write the current crop of freelancers. But in truth, nothing helps build humility like walking a mile in another man's shoes. See, if you guys can out Jason Hardy, Jason Hardy. I have a suspicious feeling that it's probably a lot harder than you people think.

Yeah, definitely takes some moxie to take a paycheck for the level of quality the line he's in charge of is laying out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

That said, I feel bad for the freelancers just now. SR5 gets a lot of shit, very deservedly given the issues, but the glaring ones aren't the fault of the writers. I'd love to hear more about the logistics and design discussions that go into producing the game, but that's all likely covered under various NDAs.

It's really hard to say. IIRC, Onyx Path has gone to all-electronic distribution: PDF and POD only. So, they completely skip all the usual booksellers-- no FLGS, no Amazon, and no reporting of sales figures to market watchers. So, if you look at the traditional channels, it seems like they've completely died. Figuring out where they actually sit is hard.


All these are good ideas. Online play is becoming more and more popular, and everyone says they're working on it. How hard would it be to implement a dice roller program here?

I went and found Frank's not-Shadowrun Fantasy Cyberpunk game post, since this topic reminded me it even existed. No idea if its good or not, since I've only read the intro to it.

Yeah, I mostly base my view on it on the vast majority of the people I know who used to run WoD games having given up on it and switched to Pathfinder or something else like Edge of the Empire because they didn't like where the games were going. Not to mention all the controversy over Exalted 3rd Edition, which is somehow looking to be even more creepily rapey than the previous versions.

Are you talking about Play By Post? Because trying to compete with Roll20 would be tough, to say the least. In fact, I'd rather see resources compiled specific for use in Roll20 campaigns.

I noticed that too.
Many of the old Vampire players are completely turned off by the new book ditching the 'Punk'-part of Gothic-Punk (similar to how many Shadowrun-fans feel about the new editions),
and by the lack of a meta-plot. The old meta-plot was extensive, but pretty awesome in my opinion.
Werewolf players pretty much got a game where they do exactly the opposite of what they were doing in Werewolf - The Apocalypse, but I for one like the new setting.

I notice too though, that the nWoD draws a lot of new players.
The lack of a meta-plot makes it easy to just make stuff up as you go along,
without anyone who knows the setting better than the GM heckling him,
when something does not conform to the setting books.
Also the books are beautiful, and well-written, the short-stories are a blast to read.

The only thing that rubs me the wrong way in nWoD is that 5x5 system prevalent in almost any book.
(5 Vampire Clans x 5 Coteries; 5 Werewolf 'Clans' x 5 'Moon-phases'; 5 Mage Clans x 5 Organisations; 5 Promethean types x 5 promethean metallurgy references; etc.)
This is purely a meta thing though, because I ask myself if the people in that world notice this 'rule of five'.
It also, paradoxically, leads to the groups (f.e. the Vampire Clans) being less distinguishable from each other, than the ones from oWoD.



Eclipse Phase is pure awesome, setting-wise. The mechanics look good to me as well, though I have sadly not played it yet.
It also is pretty much the GitS-like setting from fourth and fifth edition Shadowrun brought to the max,
but minus the magic. Though the Pandora Gates leave much up to the GM, in that respect.
Uplifts are similar to meta-humans as well.

On the writing topic:
I was just interested if the Pathfinder path was a possibility at all.
We were talking about ways to expand, unite and re-activate the community after all, and that kind of project would be one way I guess.
Many are still playing pre-4th-Edition after all, and may be interested in a clean write-out of usable rules.

I am working on that kind of rewrite anyway at the moment, and I will consult your guys's opinion in the future.

Commenting on the idea of 3.5 as in how Pathfinder did it, you know if is quite possible to build a better system that bridges the gap between WoD dice system and old rules from 1st-3rd edition. Granted I am in the camp I don't like Wi-Fi because of access to people who know a thing or two about Wi-Fi and its flaws and real capability's due to there jobs as tech support for major companies. Again I am not trying to do the whole Wi-Fi fight here.

Anyways if one builds a better system that truly bridges the gap couldn't Catalyst just step in and say yank we are going to use all this/ most of this?
Pros of doing such a thing: Better game, possibly better community, and people could actually get along (miles may vary like always)

Cons of doing such a thing: Stuff gets yanked, thrown into Catalyst taking all credit/ sharing credit but no $, and no job or a job but a arrested development in creative development (you'd be surprised to see, actual royalty rights in the music world and I am pretty sure in the writing world too) We would still have bad editing, bad writing, and probably a heavy handed redacted marker due to "a stronger demographic audience" (translation: Frag if its good solid product we need more people, people = $$$) Speaking from my own hypothesis looking at the facts. It seems Catalyst is just milking the IP to generate capital. So just looking at the cons I'd account it to having a hole in the boat and drilling another hole to drain the water out. AKA zero sum gain.

My questions were only about third edition, timeframe and all.

If I were to start thinking about a Shadowrun of the 2070s and 2080s, I would start by fundamentally raising the power level of technology and Magic.
With technology it always irked me that there has been pretty much the same tech for 25 years now. Wired Reflexes really have not gotten any better for example.
At least the Essence Costs or Nuyen Costs should have dropped.

That is neither here nor there though with respect to the thread topic.