TacNets, both in reality (where they are used in bigger military infrastructure) simply combine and analyze all sensory data, in theory from the ground soldier over the AWACS plane to the satellite. The sensor information is filtered on the "need" basis to give commanders a better tactical and strategic view. In its most basic form a map where enemy and allied positions are constantly marked, is already (stone age) tacnet as is a modern radar screen.

http://thesoldiersnetwork.com/wp-content/u...parent-1-11.png

In the more futuristic version it becomes personal: a tacnet uses your helm camera, your cybernet ear data, your micro suveillance drones to find and mark enemy and to give suggestions on the tactical situation, on where to move, immediate danger, potential threat areas or covers etc. In the SR version lots of this feedback is giving via Simsense and DNI, you dont need to see a grenade explosion radius, you get the immediate "feeling" on getting the fuck out of the a (because your personal tacnet saw the grenade on the radar screen of one of your micro drones, calculated the trajectory and the potential explosion radius and decided that you should move your ass into cover).

If you play a computer games with tactical shooters where you can mark an enemy, see through walls and smoke, can have a drone overview (for example Deus Ex Human Revolution, Crysis or Ghost Recon Future Soldier) you have a pretty good idea on how tacnets in SR works. Pehaps not the best example but the first one I found: http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/223...app-d5aozgp.jpg

In Eclipse Phase, an RPG done by some of the better SR4 authors, the tacnet becomes a central point in your units tactic (and in the enemys unit as well). In one of their splat books they described on how to fuck with the enemy tacnet, which sounded far better then online silencers to brick enemy weapons.



Shameless fanboy promotion: Ecplise Phase and the "Transhuman" splatbook are highly recommanded.



The defense of nets and cyberbrains in the GITS universe is usually depicted as a 3D virtual reality (very similar in presentation to the SR virtual realiy) and is quite active, where firewalls, antibodies, attack barriers are used like guns, hidden knife attacks and protection shields.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/...bb9qfh8ejpg.jpg

SYL

Except that somehow those massive computers could be jammed into your brain case with enough room to spare that the brain was still mostly intact. So much for requiring massive computers to Deck. While I like the slang of "Decks" and appreciate its comeback, the resurrection of Decking Hardware (ala 2060) is a huge step backwards, in my opinion.

Actually cyberterminals provided VR access and VR was described as a common leisure/freetime usage in the Sixth World. To take that away would not make any sense.

Oh, btw: what SR5 tries to accomplish was already done by the cyberpunk 2020 rpg - netrunners there could simply (with one action) map the wifi surrounding, hack items and use them against the enemy (like trucks from the nearby construction yard to ram the enemy). The rules were fast, simple, halfway believable (at least they had not online silencer) and combined with the out of combat usefulness of a netrunner they had some pretty nifty options availble. If you want to make deckers/hackers fun to play and usuable in combat, check out the basic book.

SYL

Here I thought you plugged your head into the Deck, and your Deck into the Cyberterminal.

And on the HeadDeck:
There was an Eye-Gun.
Not having the HeadDeck of 'smaller Caliber' than a regular one, may have been a wrong decision. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I have to say though, that I really like the Hacking mechanics as such in fifth edition.
The usage of Marks seems abstract, but Intuitive to me,
akin to how Spycraft 2.0 handles Chases and Interrogation and such.

I agree heartily with apple here, and it bears repeating, again and again, if necessary... If you want a fast and easy way to use Hackers, the Cyberpunk 2020 "Menu" is the way to go.

But wasn't the Netrunning there a clusterfuck of a completely different magnitude? What I read on the internet led me to believe that the Pizza problem was WAY more prevalent with those rules than in any other system for example.

Öhm? No?

Well, at least not in my experience (whic is of course some years old). The GM needed to be prepared before the run (usually by generic data fortresses usable for a wide range of hacks). It was similar enterting a building with a scout/thief while the street samurai with the Panther Assault Cannon waited outside until the scouting was done. Of course if you had to make your ways through a skyscrapr it would take longer (but then again, this is nothing different when you use a spy drone scouting for hours, astral adventures on the metaplanes or high speed chases with the rigger). AFAIK it was very easy to find a balance between hacking actions and time usage. The Pizza problem never happened to us (just in SR3 when I was foolish enough to try a combat decker).

The point is: the way CP 2020 went was a lot faster and far mor easier when it comes to integrate the hacker/decker/netrunner/console cowboy into actual gameplay, while both achieving virtual reality hacking (if you can accept the concept of network "plans" similar to floor plans), out of combat usage (recherche, legwork, information gathering etc) and in combat use.

SYL

I am gonna check out those rules then. I may have been under a misapprehension there.

Honestly, you shouldn't be allowed to turn off wireless at all, or be allowed to buy equipment without wireless on.

You can complain about how no professional would be stupid enough to run with wireless on or whatever, but that's irrelevant, because this is the future in a dystopian setting. The Matrix should be as insanely invasive as possible, and you NEED a hacker to at least make it manageable. Nothing should make you hacker proof.

Running against a mega corp facility, the corp spider should be able to send commands to the runner's gear to disable all of it, from cyber to guns. But then, you'd say, "but then the setting becomes impossible to run." So that's when you have your own hacker counter those commands, to keep your team's gear online, then you're forced into cyber combat with the spider to kill him to protect your teams gear. And then after the team hacker has beaten the spider, he can go and disable the corpsec's gear leaving them completely helpless allowing your team to just wipe the floor with them.

The Matrix should be as powerful as magic and cyberware. And not some handwavy bullshit about information being power, because you can get information from magic too, but that doesn't stop a fireball from being just as deadly while a data spike can't kill people.

I see your point, and that is definetly one way to go, but it would be making one kind of character the only irreplaceable one.

'The enemy has a Sammy? I got guns, spells, and drones! The enemy got mages? I got guns, spells, drones. The enemy has got a Decker? Well shit, mine got offed a minute ago, guess we are fucked.'

That is completely nonsensical. If you want to make hackers more useful in combat (despite being already the most useful arechetype outside of combat), just go the CP202 or Eclipse Phase way. That way you can maintain the supspension of disbelieve and combine it with fast and proven rules. And it is not a wise game design to further make everything depend on one archetype (even magic/spirits can be countered by different approaches). Players and NPCs then have the choice of stealth without bonuses and having bonuses but with the risk of electronic warfare). Choice always sound better if you can achieve the same without forcing players to do stupid things.

And the entire proposal would fail if you are outside the usual megacorp matrix (survival/jungle/wasteland adventures etc).



The Matrix is already that powerful, and IMHO far more powerful, in SR234.

SYL

And my response to that would be "No". Why?
1) Because it wouldn't make sense, and if the matrix worked as described, then you would with 1000% certainty get a shitload of underground weapon manufacturers making 100% mechanical only weapons with absolutely zero electronics in them. Same with other forms of gear. And no criminal/runner would be using any kind of cyberware or matrix connected equipment at all. At best they'd have some oldschool radios for communication on the run. Doing anything but that would be outright suicide. "But you just have to have a Decker protecting you..." Again No. Because I guarantee that the megacorp will have more than one security spider available, and your Decker can be killed or incapacitated, which will leave you dead.
2) If you designed the game that way, the Decker becomes a must-have role. No Decker, no game, because no Decker = roll new characters. Also, you end up with the situation that you might as well arrange one evening for playing with the Decker character, and if he succeeds in shutting down all the matrix related security in the target location, then the rest of the team can meet up and go on the rest of the run. And if the Decker character fails, then the rest of the group bring new characters for next time, and you start a new campaign.

Your vision is fun for a book/cartoon/movie, but for a game it is probably one of the worst ideas I've come across in a long time. No offense mate, it's not personal, it's just the idea I can't see work in practice.

We can argue about whether or not wireless should be possible to turn off or not. But turning Deckers into Gods doesn't work.

The non technological setting is not the default setting in Shadowrun. Or are we going to complain about how useless mages are in a mana void? Not all archetypes are going to be helpful in edge cases designed to take them out of their element.



Prove it. What can you do in the Matrix that is on par with a fireball, summoning a high rating spirit, moving faster than everyone with wired reflexes, etc.

@Deathstrobe it is an interesting idea, but then wouldn't everyone bit a bit of a decker just out of the gate or the tech would evolve so you could run more Agents on your commlink for basic defense when you are away from the True Decker?
The True Decker would still be a necessity, but people would also need a bit more on the personal level.

I know it's annoying that the best answer for dealing with wifi as it is currently written is just turn it off.

I mean, could you imagine if there was something similar for magic? Background count is a speed bump not a full stop like turning off wifi is.
If I told my Sammy that if he wears a pink tutu he is immune to any and all hostile magics, the streets would look like a ballet school exploded.

1. Can be countered with the fact that that illegal gear would be inferior and obsolete. After all, can the underground weapon manufactures be able to keep up with the mega corp that can mass produce and make cutting edge weapons? And cutting edge body armor would be designed to counter obsolete tech meaning you got to go cutting edge on the weapons or else you won't be able to kill anyone worth killing.

2.The Matrix should be a part of the game. You should always have at least 1 mage and 1 hacker on a team so you can get the whole setting. You should have to deal with both Matrix threats and Awaken threats and should not be allowed to just handwave and ignore them. They're core to the setting.

Deckers aren't Gods, but they should be required as part of the setting.

Mass Destruction is it? Easy. Hack a car or a truck and cause crashes or ram the enemy. Take over the construction yard crane and start dropping containers on the enemy . Use fueltanks or fueling stations and rig them. Use combat/security drones with weapons on it. Hell, use your own combat drones which you can deliver worldwide through airships if you go the high end route. Change air conditioning to stop providing fresh air and close the doors. Override gates and elevators to malfunction inn the most inappropriate of times.

The only thing which stands in your way is usually the GM and the extended roll.



Agents. Drones. Combat drones. Combat agents. Bot Nets. Drone nets. Your own. Or neutral drones. Or the drones of the enemy.



*click*

"It took me 3 seconds and I am on the other side of the planet, hacking the building via satlink, taking over the security drones and killing everyone in the house. Oh, you are still on the way to the airport? Ah, you mean the target building is not connected to the matrix? No problem, I scan around and use the drones around in the area to find something suitable. Oh, thats nice, a fuel truck on the left with a sleepy driver who is watching cold sim porn and a construction drone on the right with a laser cutter. Lets see ... and since I am a rich kid (after all, cracked programs and tricket out links are not that expensive, I have this nice operation for synaptic accelerators 3 coming up next week"

Then again, the same decker/hacker/netrunner/console cowboy can provide fake ID data, do legwork, find plans, security infos, guard details, can check financial informations, scam or blackmail people online, make runs possible or impossible ...

Of course I am quite sure that you will find fancy counters for that but then again this goes for high rating spirits, fireballs and moving really fast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

tripple sorry

double, sorry

Most familiar with SR4/4A, so here you go I am sure SR2 or 3 is similar, if you really look for it)...

Fireball: Spider activates the Concealed GSU Autocannon Weapon Mount and hoses down the entire team with Gel Rounds (if capture is required) or APDS (if Death is the end result sought). He uses the Automatic Grenade Launcher for even more mayhem on the grounds, away from company personnel.
Summoning: Calls in the On Call HTR Team that is in the ready room, complete with Heavy weapons, Drone Tanks and Air support.
Fast Movement: Only the Decker in SR4A could get 5 passes. Good luck doing that with any other method.

Apple gives even more examples above - damned Ninja (though not Ninja enough to avoid the multiple redundancy cameras). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also notice that none of these actions invoke any such concept as Drain. While a Magician is powerful, a properly played Hacker (Decker if you prefer) can really ruin everyone's day, and pretty easily at that. Played to the levels that you desire (with pervasive and invasive access to every aspect of life), and the Hacker is truly the god of the game.

If you want a realistic answer: yes. The main advantage is usually not the SOTA level (which far smaller companies can provide and often provide to megacorps today as well), but the ability for mass production, product marketing, support and distribution.



The Matrix is part of the game. the only thing stopping players are stupid rules (like the extended test or incredible expensive cyberdecks bought for nothing) and Gamemasters not living in a connected world and stopping players from letting live their characters there.



That is true, but that is not an excuse for bad rules or forcefully breaking the suspension of disbelieve when it it nos absolutely neccessary, Witch is NOT neccessary if you look how other systems solved the exact same question: why should I be online.

SYL

Let me prove how that is not on par. How many tests are needed to do all of your examples? How many tests does a mage or street samurai need to do to do something equivalent? Not to mention are we to also assume that suddenly hackers can do all that without opposition?

And considering we're so concerned about how powerful hackers are so everything should be running with no wireless, why should the hacker be able to do any of that, since apparently in the SR world Dumpshock lives in everything has no wireless. So what's the hacker suppose to do if everything is offline because they don't want the hacker to play the game?

That's what I'm saying. Everything should be online. So it seems you people agree with that. Then why are you advocating that everything should be offline so that hacker has nothing to do?

MOST things ARE on the Matrix... But some things should NOT be online if you want to have a life in the Shadows. Transmitting your position in the Zero Zone is a sure way to die, and Professionals WILL NOT DO SO. The Hacker has plenty to do without needing to screw with the Character's stuff, ESPECIALLY when that stuff has absolutely no business being matrix accessible. There is absolutely no need for the Hacker to have additional avenues of approach when he has plenty to do already.

Everything I described takes exactly one action by the Hacker... Every. Single. Thing.
And those of Apple's examples that do not are obstructed by the rules, as he indicated (Mostly extended rolls in SR4A, which went away in SR5, though it still takes multiple actions to do some of them). In Cyberpunk 2020, they too would be single actions from the "Menu" assuming you had the correct programs to interface. And notice, not one of those actions involved screwing around with the Shadowrunner or his gear.

I think that you are missing the point... No one says that the Matrix is not pervasive and much of society is interconnected. What we are saying is that not EVERYTHING needs to be on the matrix. Most Cyberware has absolutely no business being wireless, nor do guns need that capability (in many cases that connectivity becomes a hindrance). Many electronic devices gain no benefit from being active matrix hubs. Having Vehicles on the grid is nice (but not every vehicle needs to be hooked up to it 24/7/365, or at all for that matter), but you should have some capability to remove them from that same grid. The list could go on. The game that I played my Cyberlogicain in had none of the functionality that you say you prefer and I was STILL inundated with options for my time (there was never a lack of things I could do with my hacking), and if Combat became a priority over my hacking, my gun solved far more problems than my hacking could have in that instant. Because as a Shadowrunner (even a Face or Hacker), you NEED to be able to fire a gun when it is necessary... it is pretty intrinsic to living in the shadows. Not everything should be solvable by Hacking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is what happens. Everything the players can do, the GM can do. If the Players can be immune to hacking, then the GM has to make the opposition immune to hacking. Then everything is offline and hackers become a pointless archetype.

Also, go step by step for me. I need you to prove that you aren't hand waving this stuff. Because I can assure you that hacking a car or anything in SR4 will take probably about 10 or more tests assuming your GM is playing with all the security options, which are both cheap and effective at slowing down hacking to the point of making hacking in SR4 pointless. After all, the SR5 Matrix is "completely unplayable" according to the hyperbole on this board. So you can't damn SR5 if you don't want to admit that it's actually doing something right.