@Smilingfaces

Don't let the naysayers put your idea down. Run with it and see what you can come up with regarding the IP. Is it for sale and if so at what price. Only then should you start making plans as to how to raise money and what the future of IP holds. If the IP holders aren't willing to even talk about it then its dead in the water, but at least you can say you tried. I've been involved in several projects were people said things couldn't be done, some were proved right, some were proved wrong, but just being involved in those projects has taken me to places I could never imagined, even those that failed.

Just a thought here, for the uninitiated:
The "naysayers" are people intimately acquainted with running the line for a while, and / or freelancers.

I don't even know what this guy's trying to imply any more, so hell if I'm going to keep wasting time engaging with it. Have a good one, fella, enjoy the holidays, and good luck with whatever revolution it is you think you're launching, here.

I don't think there are too may uninitiated around here and if there are then initiation is only a few posts away (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Why don't these great Initiated come out and say this can't happen because [insert reasonable statement of fact] rather than just putting other members of the board down. Maybe they do know stuff about the IP, maybe they cant talk about it due to NDA, but they could be a little less toxic or hostile. I'm a freelancer for several game lines, and for the most part I know nothing about the details of those IPs

TOPPS owns the License.
And even after CGL basically stole 1 Million dollars (pinkie finger in corner of mouth), they STILL did not revoke their right to the IP from them.
Which should tell you a bit about why it's not likely to work. The people CGL more or less directly stole from did not take SR away from them.
For reasons unknown. Probably because of contracts signed and Lawyers and Bullshit like that. Nobody ever came out and talked about it yet.
And when questions get asked, they are either ignored or answered with:"NDA applies here, so nyaaah!"
As long as you can't contact and CONVINCE TOPPS to give somebody else the license, you are not even allowed to start funding for taking it.

And, seriously, it's either Weisman or simply giving the german people the say about what goes and does not go in SR and having CGL ask "mommy may i?" instead of the way it is now.
With CGL getting final say and the german people, who actually are better at this stuff than CGL at this point, having to ask for permission. Know why not much of the german stuff ever gets translated to engrish?
Because CGL would get money from it and the german people would not. That is one part of the in my eyes absurd IP copyright / licensing Trademark Bullshit surrounding Shadowrun.

And THEN we come to the next big problem.
Nobody knows if SR/BT are a package deal by. So you don't know wether or not you need to acquire not just one but both licenses together.
And BT is getting so much favourable treatment over SR that it actually still works, even with such stupid nonsense as Mechwarrior Online and Mechwarrior Tactics marring the Name.

I thought it was that certain parties had misappropriated those funds from CGL itself, so how would they have stolen from TOPPS?

Rather wasn't it was internal matter of CGL? So long as TOPPS got paid for their license usage would they really be concerned?

Embezzling/ misusage of funds can happen at all levels of industries, but you would not necessarily shut down all ties because of it.

I could be wrong as everything I have seen on this matter has been sketchy on all details.

I am not disagreeing that getting it from TOPPS would be difficult in th extreme as it would have to be enough to warrant them passing up what they have now, rather I am just trying to find clarity on the background of the event mentioned above.

First of all, with 'uninitiated' I meant the people who obviously do not know who Adam Jury is.
As for your questions why they did not answer: There are a multitude of reasons, most of which are not fit to be discussed on an open board. You answer your question in part yourself by referring to NDAs, but there is business information involved that no one here is a) privy to and b) they simply aren't supposed to know. You don't just give out what a license for a well-known IP has cost you once upon a time, or what it earns you, and so on. The reasons that are fit to be discussed were shared.

Furthermore: not one of the people in the know here were toxic or even hostile. Adam pointed out a few facts, for which he was basically flamed; Critias went to great pains disclaiming any hostile intent, getting the same treatment. So yeah, the old adage about stones and glass houses applies.

Yes, your 'plan' (or lack thereof) is, in essence, something we here in Germany call a 'Schnapsidee'. Sounds nice when you're boozed up and enthusiastic, but less so in the morning with a giant hangover and a mountain of facts arrayed against you.
Make no mistake, though: your enthusiasm is worth a lot and shows your passion for the game, but when someone who was intimately involved with the product tells you that it's not going to happen, it isn't meant to put you down, or to uphold a privilege of some sorts. It's simply (as was stated very politely) to spare you some grief.

Not my plan, I just like the concept. I just think people could be a little more supportive in general around here.

Ah well, no sense in derailing the thread further…

The licensing conversation is now in its own thread.

It's not really a matter of being supportive, as much as trying to save some heartache. You'd think that if there's one thing a bunch of Shadowrun fans would remember, it's that the megacorps usually win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

yeah, first things first: topps is a business. you want to talk to them, you need to talk their language, and explain how you're going to make them some money.

right now, CGL has a functioning system for taking books from idea to completion. you may argue that it doesn't function very well, but it nevertheless does function.

in contrast, the proposed dumpshock forums collective revolution has... nothing. we have no authors who've said they'll write for us. we have no professional editors, no professional line developers (whether you think CGL has a good one or not, at least they have one), nobody to do layout, no dedicated playtesters or proofreaders, no relationships with any printers or the various companies and distributors that sell the product, no artists, nothing.

and heck, that's just the stuff that i, a person with a passing interest in the industry as an industry, am aware of.

frankly, if i owned the shadowrun license, there's not a snowball's chance in hell i'd license it to us right now. before i would even *dream* of going to topps to make a pitch for the license, i would first want to have a plan. and not just "we're going to buy the license and make awesome stuff", but a detailed plan, where we show expenses, demonstrate that we have the team to do that (ideally with plenty of experience in the industry), and so forth.

as to buying the license, any amount of money we as fans can generate merely serves as proof that the license is worth more than what we can generate. if we have hundreds of people all willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on shadowrun, that means the market is at least that much, and most likely more (because there are almost assuredly other fans who aren't willing to shell out just to get the license with no product attached). and again, we don't have the resources to do anything with the license. if we got it, somehow, we would need to do all the work that i mentioned above, because otherwise we're just going to kill the IP dead, unless we sell it again.

making this idea work is going to take an insane amount of work just to get to the point where topps wouldn't be insane to even acknowledge our existence, and once we've reached that point there isn't even a hint of a suggestion that they'd be looking to let the license go.

it's a cool-sounding idea, and frankly i don't particularly like where CGL is going with the game either. but it's going to take more than just throwing a bit of money into a collective account to get the license. this is not a simple thing that is being proposed, it is an extremely difficult task that we as a community completely lack the tools to accomplish.

As much as I hate to admit it, this is the soundest statement I've read in this entire thread.

Even if every Dumpshocker pooled all their life savings, I would be greatly surprised if it amounted to even 10 percent of the needed funds for such a buyout.


-k

Actually, that one we do know.

When FanPro USA went away, the reason CGL was picked to take over the Shadowrun property was because they were doing a good job with BattleTech. And, to be fair, from what I've seen they are doing a good job with it. Battletech gets regular events, high-quality (and well-edited) books, tons of support, and so on. Why they're not doing the same with Shadowrun is anybody's guess, but it's not because they can't do a good job with the line.

Correct. More details are only known to those involved.

I'd suggest it has a lot to do with throwing away a lot of the core of dedicated writers who knew the setting inside out enough to write quickly and well for it. The fact that they've managed to keep a few good people on, like the folks who post here from time to time, is all that really gives me hope that the line can pull up out of this nosedive in quality.

What I want to see is more money spent to develop Shadowrun, even at the risk of taking a loss. My idea is that the short term risk could be offset by larger future earning brought about by having a larger fan base, which would be the result of having more attractive products. If the fan base were large enough, it could bring about the possibility of other, far more profitable non-RPG Shadowrun products in the future.

I see the IP licensing model being applied to the RPG as a barrier to this. The IP holder should not accept a loss, and nor the company licensing it. What would motivate Catalyst to spend their own money to greatly improve Shadowrun when TOPPS is the company that would benefit from it by being able to license, for example, a comic?

An answer might be for the IP holder and the game developer to be the same entity. Their risk would be that they could lose money in the entire venture if they have overvalued the Shadowrun property. As a fan, I can accept that I may be vastly overestimating the monetary potential of Shadowrun.

Referring to a purchase as a misguided revolution, implying that people are out to get CGL, assuming that it will be crowdfunded, expecting the purchasers to just give it away, and other things in this thread just murky the waters.

If you truly want to save Shadowrun, first you have to kill Shadowrun.

Shadowrun's mechanics aren't copyrighted. You can't copyright math. We are free to pull SR1, 2, 3, 4, or 5's dice rolling. We can use a cyberpunk setting. We can use Tolkien monsters and spells. We can use "Combat Pool" and "Matrix".

What we cannot use is "Shadowrun" or "Renraku" or "Mitsuhama" or "Ares Predator".

If you want to raise money to make Shadowrun, this is the method that takes the least work and the least capital (mind you, it still takes a lot of both). Raise $50,000-$100,000 for your freelancers, layout, artists, first prints, etc., you can scoop up some of that Shadowrun skill and build your perfect magical-cyberpunk d6 system. But it would not be "Shadowrun".

There are still some more comments that have to be moved over here cause this thread doesn't read right.

Anywho you have to be careful on what "monsters" some are copy righted as in the famous case of Gary Gygax and TSR. Anyways here is the deal I have already stated the idea which is now being contorted into a bunch of other things.

Ok since this is to hard for some people to figure out, its not that hard but what ever, ill be looking through who hold what IP its just the holidays I am busy in RL. If I am going to start digging around i'd rather do it right then poke at it. For the few who don't know what IP is its intellectual property. I wasn't talking about getting the license, I was talking about the IP.

What I was originally talking about, led to this thread being moved here instead of where it was originally. What I was saying originally was crowd funding the IP to go back to the creators of shadowrun like Jordan Weisman. It wasn't limited to dumpshock as in only dumpshock members were putting out a collection plate or was it limited to this forum, alright.
I don't think we need to kill shadowrun, to save it. Were you in NAM or something Kill the village to save the village mentality? I wouldn't throw money at the "new" writers for shadowrun hence the idea of giving it back to the creators.

Personally and I know iam not the only one looking at writing and lack there of (bad writing bad editing) from Catalyst that thinks they are just milking the IP. When I put up the thread what have you learned from shadowrun a lot of people spoke of shadowfiles that's from 2ed for example. So no, handing money to the "new" writers would be taking steps back instead of forward that's for damn sure.

Suit yourself. I agree with your motivation. I'd love to see additions/revisions for SR1/2/3. I'd love to see the IP move to someone who would be doing that. But I don't think it's a realistic option. Please do prove me wrong, but understand the burden of proof lies with you.

If you find the IP isn't available for purchase, then you have two options. Either you drop the name "Shadowrun" and all of the copyrighted parts of the setting to create a derivative product. Or you drop the matter altogether as being untenable.

I'll continue playing and updating SR3R, writing my own adventures, and freelancing. IMO, this is the only way to get new Shadowrun material; by making it myself. People are welcome to pitch in, if they'd like.

You could have all the money in the world. If the current owner doesn't wanna deal, it won't matter.

Crowdfunding doesn't magically give you the ability to force someone to sell their property.

We know who owns the IP. As stated a few times now, it's Topps, the trading card company, who has not shown the slightest interest in selling the IP. They even let Catalyst keep the license despite that company going through a pretty serious embezzlement/misappropriation of funds scandal.

It is extremely unlikely anything you could possibly raise via crowdfunding would approach even a fraction of the money required to convince Topps to sell.


-k

Okay, as you may not be aware, but more than a fair few here are military/ex-military, myself included.

And while I was not in 'Nam myself my father and many relatives were, so you may want to rethink tossing comments like that out.


As for the rest, I am really having a difficult time trying to continue any sort of conversation on this as while we do agree in principle with some of your points, you don't be seeming to addressing other points that have been raised or you go on with a condescending tone toward those who didn't agree with your points by trying to pass it off as they somehow don't seem to understand what you are saying.

The truth is they do understand and are raising their own points in kind, which is sort of the point of having a discussion.

You may want to go back through the posts in both threads over the holiday because maybe you are just missing some of the posts and thus this may just be a miscommunication.

Man, part of what you're failing to understand is people aren't just trying to be mean. We are trying to share some of our collective knowledge regarding the SR IP, since many of us were around during the many changes (some were even involved).

First, the IP is split into computer-based games and other games. Prior to ceasing operations (as Cain mentioned they never went out of business), FASA sold all rights to computer-based games based on SR to Microsoft. Those rights have since been licensed to Smith and Tinker (Jordan Wiesman) and then to HBS and Cliffhanger.

The rest of the IP is even more complicated. FASA sold SR and BT to Wizkids, which licensed the rights to Fanpro. Wizkids was then purchased by Topps, who currently holds the IP. Tops licenses the rights to SR and BT to Catalyst, which is the current state of affairs. As has been mentioned, Topps has stuck by Catalyst even through some significant "struggles", which I don't want to go into (you can read it for yourself). Nobody really knows what went down between Topps and Catalyst during that time, but the fact that Catalyst still holds the liscense speaks to their working relationship and the profitability of SR, both of which will make any attempt at acquiring the IP more difficult.

Keep in mind that the value of the SRs IP isn't just based on how well they sold their last book, or the last ten. SR has been making money for 25 years. It's not something that a company like Topps is going to part with for cheap.

And then there's that whole needing a plan part.

So, again, people aren't just naysaying. We are trying to give you a realistic idea of what you're actually talking about.

This crap is completely unacceptable. It either ends now or I'll lock this thread and send out warnings.

first step before starting a crowdfunding project: make sure you have the ability to actually do the thing you're raising money for.

you want to revive the brand by turning it over to the original authors? well, we don't even know if they are willing to spend their time and effort (and ultimately money, since they'll be giving up their current source of income for a new and uncertain one) yet. like i said earlier, before you get the brand, you're going to need a business plan. there's plenty of things that sound like good ideas, but are doomed to failure because nobody properly accounted for all the steps involved in making the idea actually happen.

you want people to get together and shell out money for the IP. assuming that's even possible, you're going to need to show them that they aren't just throwing their money into a bottomless moneypit.

that's why when you look at a successful kickstarter, you'll see how they talk about the team they've put together, and show you concepts for what they're trying to do. they'll talk about other companies that are involved, and what their past accomplishments are.

right now we've got one person (you) who is willing to provide money (likely a small amount compared to the total required to accomplish the stated goal, even though it is likely a large amount to you), no business plan, no team capable of doing the job, no support from the people you want to take part, nothing. much as i'd like shadowrun to go in a different direction, right now there's no way i'd hand my money off to you to get the job done because you have not shown in any way that you are capable of getting the job done. there are dozens of hurdles that need to be jumped, and you're spending all your time being upset that we're pointing them out rather than actually doing anything to actually be able to jump them.