Quick Answer, Blade... Sorry it took a few days, been busy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Problem is that I did not want Augmentations for the character, and spending Nuyen to get augmentations just to get back to where I was without Augmentation is counter-productive when I could spend the resources (I did not need Nuyen, already had all my gear) in ways better fitting the concept of the character. I had all the BP/Karma I needed and did not NEED any more returned by purchasing something I did not want in the first place.

- If it is exactly the same stats for the character, just with augmentations, why should I bother when I set out to avoid Augmentations?
- Did not want a Lower Essence. Again, Counter Productive.
- I did not need more Nuyen at Chargen, contrary to your stated goal. I had all I needed for the equipment I wanted.
- Yes, raising Agility Post Gen is more expensive... so what? I see no reason to make a decision based upon how much something costs post chargen. Especially for a character who sets out to avoid Augmentations to start with. By the same token, I dot purchase many short skills and 1 massive one, just because it is more cost effective. If the Concept does not support a certain skill level, I do not purchase said skill level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The character achieved the stated goals at chargen that were set out for him. Anything else is gravy, but not at the expense of the concept he began with. If, at a later time, augmentations become a requirement (say he lost a limb, damaged organs, neural damage, etc - we use the Severe Wounds rules), then he may have no recourse but to augment up, but until that time is forced upon him, he is happy being Unaugmented. As for Money in game, he has far too many things he spends money on without having to add in the costs of Augmentations into the mix. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Neraph had it right in Post 46. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Neraph may have hit the point in your eyes in his post 46, but actually Serbitar and Blade proved it wrong.

As they said, the fact you stay in line with your character concept may be nice, but this has nothing to do with balance.


They proved that they can have a better character than yours (pure stat-Wise) with augmentations than with none.


If you want unaugmented mundane characters to be balanced with augmented ones (which isn't the case in SR I think), you'd clearly would have here a balance problem.

No he did not... Blade proved he could have the SAME STATS as I had at start, and use some remaining resources to add functionality... That is not proof that the character he put forth is better in a pure stat-wise comparison. Nor does it prove that the character is better functionally. Only that he had the same stat ( a Lower base Agility) boosted by Ware to the same level that I started with sans Ware.

That is not a balance issue. If two characters can accomplish the same goals reliably, then they are comparatively balanced, regardless of how they got there. The Unaugmented character can often do so in more areas because the Unaugmented character is spending those valuable resources in other places that make him more useful in more areas, in the long run. He is definitely broader in his applicability (more of a Generalist, I guess). That said, there is nothing wrong with a specialist. He just will not be as competent in multiple areas as a Generalist will be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We are likely not going to agree on this, as I approach character concept and design (as well as integration into the world ) far differently than many here do. *shrug*

What is that then:




It really looks like he can have same stats + something thanks to the saved BP, so either attributes, skill. Which, to me means:

Stats of Augmented characters > Stats of unaugmented character




Agin, he proved that his Augmented Generalist is better stat-Wise than the unaugmented one.




Honestly, this is not where we disagree. I like character concepts as an approach to design my character. Basically, I'm on the same line than you.

BUT, we're discussing about game balance.

And about the balance subject, this is true:

With augmentions, you can create a character stronger stat-Wise than an unaugmented one with very minor flaws



---------------------------------------------

Anyways, this unbalance seems right to me per design.

But what is in SR4 and 5 unbalanced and shouldn't?

I think y'all are completely missing his point. Comparatively minor flaws are still flaws, and in any case, do not fit the character concept he is playing.

Looks are often deceiving. No, He said stats were identical, and there were a few bits of remaining resources, scavenged due to reducing inherent stat and adding augmented stats to the equal of what they were in original concept, to do with what you want. If I already have what I want, and have to sacrifice Concept to utilize those phantom few remaining resources scavenged by augmenting, than that is a losing argument.



No he did not - Stats were Identical... therefore no, it is not better.



Yes, YOU CAN build stronger stat based characters with Augmentations (That does not make them better). That was never the contention. The contention was that the equal stats provided by augmentations in the above comparison somehow made you better. And I disagree with that statement.

See, I do not see a Game Imbalance here. I am actually pretty shocked that you do. *shrug*




See, I just see design as intended... you can POTENTIALLY create an Augmented Character that has stats of Max for any racial type. That does not mean the Unaugmented character cannot be key to the team (he will likely have far more skills than the Augmented character does due to opportunity costs, and they will likely be decent level, equating to comparable DP's), and highly useful. Nor does it mean the Unaugmented character is unbalanced in comparison. He is just different. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for what is/isn't unbalanced in 5th Edition? Well, there are a few things I don't like (Like Limits), but It Works. Still prefer 4th Edition, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd say look at the difference between Street Sam and a covert ops specialist.
Street Sam: Fast Strong and really good at shooting
Covert Ops specialist: Good at multiple things and almost as fast but couldn't take on a street sam head to head.

Both ok builds but both better in different areas. So is there a balance conflict because a street sam is better at shooting than the cover ops specialist. Nope; different builds.

But I can hear the comment that a covert ops specialist isn't a gun bunny and that's fine but there isn't a build issue as they have different concept and skills.

So I pose this challenge to show the unbalance.

Post these characters: 1 w/ aug; 1 w/ adapt; 1 w/o aug built off the same concept modal and show how they would be unbalanced vice just being different? I would prefer to see the numbers.

Shadowrun is relatively balanced in the sense that while certain combinations are optimal (troll tank, elven face, etc.), character creation is generous enough that you can create a suboptimal combination (elven tank, troll face, etc.) and still have a functional character. The problem arises when newer players don't realize they are going against the grain of the system. Sure, an unaugmented mundance can be versatile, but if you make an unaugmented mundane karate expert and enter him in a pit fight, chances are the other guy with muscle augmentation and toner, dermal sheathing, move-by-wire, bone density augmentation, and a reflex recorder will have an insurmountable edge.

I did read here that Technomancers were pretty bad compard to deckers in 5th and that adepts outshined street sams in 4th.


@Tymeaus:

I think we just do not understand each other. Because we doesn't understad "balance" in the same way:



Limits aren't a balance problem.

Balance is the fact that characters profile are in average equal. The lecture grid would be : speciality-spotlight, all-aroundness, stregth in his speciality.


I'll give a few examples:

ADD: Thief was unbalanced because we was too weak in his speciality and too weak in fighting (all-aroundness) to be balanced. (Things got corrected in 3rd).
Buffy: The Slayer outshines the other PC per design (and it's fun) so the game is unbalanced per design.
L5R 4th ed: Playing a dragon and get dodge at rank 7 is totally unbalanced (he cannot be hit) but well that game is so unbalanced globally anyways....

Side note: SR3 seems pretty balanced to me even if I feel that spellcasters should have been toned down a bit.

You are being entirely too polite. The augmented guy will likely paste karate kid.

@Tymeaus:
What you are losing by sacrificing your character concept is mostly fluff (which is I big deal I agree, but as far as the stats are concerned, fluff has no value).

Let's say that you play your character and someone else plays the augmented version. He has all your stats but a few have a higher score and/or he's got more gear/tools/skills. When on the job, he will perform better than your character in most cases, and the cases where he will be in trouble compared to your character are very limited.
He will not follow your concept, but your concept brings very little edge as far as the game system is concerned.

Once again, I'm not saying that your character concept is bad, or that your character doesn't fit your expectation. I'm just saying that as far as the rules are concerned, the augmented version will be more efficient across the board.

For example, if my concept is to play a character with 300 BP in a game with characters made with 400 BP, I might be able to create the character that I want, and he might even be efficient, but the 400 BP characters will mathematically be able to do better if they invest their BP in the same fields.

My experience, over multiple Editions, has not borne out that opinion (Not saying that you do not have a point, because you just might, it is just that I have not seen it - probably because we always discuss what we are going to do as characters prior to a campaign, so we know what to expect from characters going in). Few characters (I would say None) at our table have more Gear (esoteric or not)/Tools/Skills... When you are not spending Hundreds of Thousands on Cyber/Bio, you can afford a ton of equipment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As a note, no one intentionally plays less BP/Karma than the rest, but builds are different, even within the same general concept, and I have yet to really see anything unbalanced about the way those characters are put together. There may be a few issues (Like Technomancers in 5th getting the shaft), but even that can be maneuvered around with careful crafting of character so that it does not affect the game.

True, I've played unaugmented characters who may loose in a fight but still walked over the augmented characters in other area. It really depends on the build and what they plan on doing with them. Most of the time I find the lack of balance in a perception thing such as"MY character can't do X while such character can do X"

The unaugmented character supplemented the lack of cyber with lest costly equipment.

A brilliant flash of insight. Welcome to the club.


The "balance" argument is now largely an argument of semantics against shadows. There does not exist a balance issue when all elements of the game are taken into consideration.

EDIT:
Except an AI PC who clusters micro drones with chameleon coating and signal masking together as a home node. That is only "unbalanced" because it's a literally unkillable character - a techno-lich.

Heh... He said Techno-Lich. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[quote name='Neraph' post='1316447' date='Sep 10 2015, 09:11 AM'
Except an AI PC who clusters micro drones with chameleon coating and signal masking together as a home node. That is only "unbalanced" because it's a literally unkillable character - a techno-lich.[/quote]


EMP Bombs... Lots of them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Hello dark ages.... MWAHAHAHA!!!!!!

If you have enough EMP bombs to coat a city.... You're not playing the same game I am. Signal 8 in a web means you're looking at a very, very large area. And remember, you miss even one of those suckers and that AI is still alive.

Here's the important part: Balanced is a *relative* term.

If everyone is running high-powered, but equally effective characters, nothing is truly unbalanced. In the same vein, if everyone is playing scrappy underdogs who aren't highly effective, no one is unbalanced either.

The problem is when effectiveness is unequal. If you have two scrappy underdogs, and two gods of the shadows, you're going to have problems in the game. Highly effective characters tend to not only get more spotlight time, but better quality spotlight time as well. This can lead to lots of hard feelings out of game.

Shadowrun has the "benefit" of being played at many levels. However, the lack of a standard power level means it's far too easy to get a God of the Shadows running right alongside a scrappy underdog in current Shadowrun. That's where things get unbalanced.

On top of that, there are certain options that are clearly "better" than others, at least from a mechanical perspective. That encourages min/maxing, which isn't a problem in and of itself; but it can easily lead to unbalanced game play.

A robust system, with good balanced mechanics, helps the GM minimize this problem. Obviously, the GM has to do some of this by themself, but the system is supposed to aid the GM in making play run smoothly. Current editions of Shadowrun do not do this.

And here I was thinking more along the line of a terrorist oorganization that planted the bombs, holding the city ransom but a group of runnners stumble upon it and stop it themselves because everyone else is looking in the wrong direction. Like a standard action movie.

The problem here is that, mehanically speaking, there is literally nothing the unaugmented mundane can do that an augmented or magical (or worse, both) character can't do better. A lot better, in many cases.

If your entire group is built around those concepts, this isn't necessarily a problem. But if you've got hyperspecialists in the party, who can do impossible things while brushing their teeth, the plucky mundane who struggles to keep up becomes much less attractive as a concept.

Oh. In that case, thanks for underscoring the fact that that particular method is only killable by Plot Device.

It shouldn't be doable anyway.


The writing choice to have AI be supportable by anything less than an Ultraviolet system was a terrible, terrible worldbuilding call in hindsight, and a direct contributor to the current metaplot being on the 'whoops, killed the planet' level of dumb.

In my opinion, the writing choice to allow AI's as PC's is what led to where we are, not their system requirements (which have never really scaled well, anyways). AI's work best as Plot Devices, not Player Characters.

Oh, I didn't know you were a freelancer for the system.


EDIT:

But PCs are the best Plot Devices.

No, they are the best Protagonists... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
PC's as Plot Devices end in things like Harlequin and such... again, a bad direction in my opinion. But then, I have never been a fan of the ED-Shadowrun bridge plots.