IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
binarywraith
post Jun 23 2019, 03:14 AM
Post #26


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,973
Joined: 4-June 10
Member No.: 18,659



I'm going to go out on a limb and say 'inconsistent'.

The factors that have led to the editing and errata disaster of 5e have not changed, nor has CGL shown any sign of listening to the frustrations of the fans regarding them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Iduno
post Jun 23 2019, 04:49 PM
Post #27


Moving Target
**

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 587
Joined: 27-January 07
From: United States
Member No.: 10,812



QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 22 2019, 10:14 PM) *
I'm going to go out on a limb and say 'inconsistent'.

The factors that have led to the editing and errata disaster of 5e have not changed, nor has CGL shown any sign of listening to the frustrations of the fans regarding them.


Also, the second half of 4e.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jaid
post Jun 23 2019, 05:28 PM
Post #28


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813



well, they have an errata team already, so it sounds like at least they're trying to look like they're trying to improve.

...

that said, i have my doubts about the errata team getting anything in before the first printing. and there isn't really a huge difference between not having an errata team and not using an errata team.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 24 2019, 01:43 PM
Post #29


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE ("The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia")
normiespeak

Really. Well ...

QUOTE (The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia)
At the end of the day they’re modern Nazis—nothing more, nothing less. Give them nothing except a punch in the face or a bullet to the brainpan.

Let their own words do the talking.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Jun 24 2019, 08:14 PM
Post #30


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,089
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Nstol_wisper @ Jun 19 2019, 11:49 PM) *
I felt the handling of the African continent had been not great up until 5e.

As a rule of thumb, useful descriptions of countries always had to be done by people at least living in the general area. See Shadows of Europe for a prime example.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nstol_wisper
post Jun 24 2019, 10:40 PM
Post #31


Moving Target
**

Group: Validating
Posts: 184
Joined: 19-June 19
From: Skipping stones in the Foundation.....
Member No.: 221,647



QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 24 2019, 03:14 PM) *
As a rule of thumb, useful descriptions of countries always had to be done by people at least living in the general area. See Shadows of Europe for a prime example.


That is not a reason not to have a sourcebook from here or there.
I'm sure of the fact that it was not a question of willingness on an author's part.
It was more likely licencing and the extra work associated with clearing contributions from other countries.
Seems trivial but several potential sources likely suffered due to the tangle of incompatible licence proceedures.

I myself feel that the companies involved did and still do a great job under the circumstances.

Shadows of Europe is a great sourcebook, and it's a shame that the effort was never repeated, in english, for later editions......
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bannockburn
post Jun 25 2019, 08:18 AM
Post #32


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,647
Joined: 22-April 12
From: somewhere far beyond sanity
Member No.: 51,886



QUOTE (Nstol_wisper @ Jun 25 2019, 12:40 AM) *
Shadows of Europe is a great sourcebook

Only for non-Europeans. For everyone from here, it's in the best case amusing, and nowhere near great.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 25 2019, 08:52 AM
Post #33


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE
I'm sure of the fact that it was not a question of willingness on an author's part.

It was, for all I know, much more a case of author's death - Findley's - that stopped a 2nd Edition Africa book.

QUOTE
Shadows of Europe is a great sourcebook, and it's a shame that the effort was never repeated, in english, for later editions......

There's Shadows of Latin America.

The quality of writing in SoE is mixed. Some of it - Portugal, Spain, ScandU, UNL - is pretty nice, largely locally sourced, and usually imported internet fanwork from the webring age. A lot is basically slightly updated summaries - Britain, TNN, Germany. Those rise and fall in usefulness with the original source material (I like Sargent/Gascoigne's work for the most part, and really dislike the old Germany book, even tempered as it was by DidS2, but that's personal preference). A lot of Europe is more or less ignored in SoE - Eastern Europe mainly, where only Poland, the Czech Republic and Austria got any significant coverage. The Balkans, the Black Sea countries, all that's pretty much ignored (at least Ukraine got a writeup in Shadows of Asia, though being a European country geographically). The rest is across the map - Greece is way too X-Men for my tastes, Italy a painful cliché, Poland and Czech Republic at least offer good hooks. LEaving out Hungary, which has had a viable Shadowrun fanbase since the 90s, is quite regrettable, though I think Taylor did try to get someone there nboard back in the day.

It's better, of course, to locally source such writeups, but it'S no guarantee the results are good. Careful research and a measure of respect for the places covered can also go a long way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lokii
post Jun 25 2019, 03:06 PM
Post #34


Keeper of the Timeline Maps
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 21-December 10
Member No.: 19,243



QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 25 2019, 10:52 AM) *
A lot of Europe is more or less ignored in SoE - Eastern Europe mainly, where only Poland, the Czech Republic and Austria got any significant coverage. The Balkans, the Black Sea countries, all that's pretty much ignored

I think that might have been for lack of contributions though. They wanted people from a country to write about it.

https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/EuroSB

QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 25 2019, 10:52 AM) *
The rest is across the map - Greece is way too X-Men for my tastes,

You mean what was written about it in the short "The Rest of Europe" section? Well, that also briefly discussed Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Königberg, Belarus, Ukraine, Hungary, Slovakia and the Balkans (without stable countries).

I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 25 2019, 05:42 PM
Post #35


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE
I think that might have been for lack of contributions though. They wanted people from a country to write about it.

If I remember correctly it actually was about space - Peter Taylor had written an extensive document about the Balkans, especially former Yugoslavia, but they cut it and the file then died in an HDD crash of Taylor'S, presumably lost forever.

QUOTE
I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page.

That'd indeed be interesting.

Also, by "too X-Men" I meant too much focus on setting-specific things, and too little local flair. The Baltics would deserve a bit more coverage too, and Ukraine got its coverage in SoA, if I am not mistaken.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nstol_wisper
post Jun 25 2019, 06:14 PM
Post #36


Moving Target
**

Group: Validating
Posts: 184
Joined: 19-June 19
From: Skipping stones in the Foundation.....
Member No.: 221,647



I expect more sourcebooks from Africa. I have no evidence.
But I have looked at Android: Netrunner and one of final card boosters, if not the final was set in Africa.
And the work done on those looks a bit like the more recent content additions in Shadowrun to me.
For that matter plenty of new sourcebooks, hopefully another for Europe should be expected.
Keep the local flair comming,,,,,, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Jun 25 2019, 09:23 PM
Post #37


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,089
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Nstol_wisper @ Jun 25 2019, 12:40 AM) *
That is not a reason not to have a sourcebook from here or there.

It wasn't intended as a reason not to have one, just as an explanation why there is none: Local books were typically done by local fans wanting to see their country covered, but RPGs do not seem to have the community in Africa they have elsewhere, or at least that community does not mingle much with the "western" community.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nath
post Jun 25 2019, 11:16 PM
Post #38


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,759
Joined: 11-December 02
From: France
Member No.: 3,723



QUOTE (lokii @ Jun 25 2019, 05:06 PM) *
I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page.
I still have a copy of the proposed outline and several draft versions for the Greece chapter, but I don't remember Rob Boyle reasoning behind dropping it. What was proposed mostly stayed clear off the crossover - maybe he wasn't sure about going that way or the other way round. On the other hand, I think Greece was going to be one of the weakest chapters. It clearly lacked a central plot or theme. With SoE already pushing on the limits with 240 pages and lot of context missing (regarding the Balkans, Turkey...), I guess it made sense to drop it.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 25 2019, 11:23 PM) *
It wasn't intended as a reason not to have one, just as an explanation why there is none: Local books were typically done by local fans wanting to see their country covered, but RPGs do not seem to have the community in Africa they have elsewhere, or at least that community does not mingle much with the "western" community.
Shadows of Europe, derived from the EuroSB project, is the only sourcebook written by locals fans. As far as I remember, only three of Shadows of Asia authors could be considered locals: Jong-Won Kim in Korea, Anthony Bruno in Israel and Palestine and Mikael Brodu in Thailand (though by now Tony and Mike have each spent a solid decade in those countries, when SoA was written they were only freshly in). Major chapters like Russia, India, China and Japan were written by US or European authors. Then the cancelled Shadows of Latin America was somewhere in between.

Though I have absolutly no idea where were US authors living, I'm not sure any of the books covering North American countries fit in the "local fan made" description either (though I still wonder how they picked the cities covered The Neo-anarchist Guide to North America).

London Sourcebook and Tir na nOg were both written by Mark Sargent and Carl Gascoigne which, though they may count as "locals" for the former, were seasoned enough as writers to not be considered as mere "fans". Deutschland in der Schatten and France were written by authors hired by the publishing companies who held Shadowrun rights for their respective countries.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Bull
post Jun 26 2019, 09:24 AM
Post #39


Grumpy Old Ork Decker
*******

Group: Admin
Posts: 3,794
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Orwell, Ohio
Member No.: 50



QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 24 2019, 09:43 AM) *
QUOTE (The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia)
At the end of the day they’re modern Nazis—nothing more, nothing less. Give them nothing except a punch in the face or a bullet to the brainpan.

Let their own words do the talking.


I'd appreciate some clarification on exactly what you mean by this comment.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lokii
post Jun 26 2019, 09:53 AM
Post #40


Keeper of the Timeline Maps
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 21-December 10
Member No.: 19,243



QUOTE (lokii @ Jun 25 2019, 05:06 PM) *
I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page.

Found it right here on Dumpshock: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=4228

QUOTE (Synner @ May 22 2004, 09:50 AM) *
Unfortunately yes, the Federal Republic of Hellas (aka Greece) was cut in development of SoE. The EuroSB crew had considerable material on the current situation for use in the book, but exactly because of Greece's historic peculiarities it was decided to leave it out for a eventual book where it would get significantly more attention.

And "because of Greece's historic peculiarities" should refer to what Ancient History said:

QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 22 2004, 01:32 AM) *
Greece is iffy right about now, like the Ukraine, do to possible ED connections, [...]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 26 2019, 10:44 AM
Post #41


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE (Bull @ Jun 26 2019, 10:24 AM) *
Let their own words do the talking.

I'd appreciate some clarification on exactly what you mean by this comment.

Three Nazis walk into a BAR. They don't get up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Seriously though, CGL is showing a frustrating lenience towards Nazis on its staff, and has throughout Hardy's rein, starting with WAR. Following up on those big words in reality (by letting them go/blacklisting them), macho chest-drumming aside, would be a good start. That enough clarification for you?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
lokii
post Jun 26 2019, 01:01 PM
Post #42


Keeper of the Timeline Maps
**

Group: Members
Posts: 410
Joined: 21-December 10
Member No.: 19,243



https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/EuroSB

I have updated the wiki. (Glad to see more information about material that was cut. Any chance of publishing these Greece chapter drafts for SoE?)

Other than that we should get back to more Streetpedia appreciation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nstol_wisper
post Jun 26 2019, 02:21 PM
Post #43


Moving Target
**

Group: Validating
Posts: 184
Joined: 19-June 19
From: Skipping stones in the Foundation.....
Member No.: 221,647



I think that maybe they should have covered more AA and lower rated corps?
It would not have taken up much space. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Jun 26 2019, 09:28 PM
Post #44


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,089
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Nath @ Jun 26 2019, 01:16 AM) *
to not be considered as mere "fans".

Who said anything about "mere fans"? A fan does not have to be an amateur


QUOTE
Deutschland in der Schatten and France were written by authors hired by the publishing companies who held Shadowrun rights for their respective countries.

DidS and France are obvious cases of people wanting to have their neighborhood represented in a game the play, and wanting it to be at least as cool as the American setting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nstol_wisper
post Jun 26 2019, 09:48 PM
Post #45


Moving Target
**

Group: Validating
Posts: 184
Joined: 19-June 19
From: Skipping stones in the Foundation.....
Member No.: 221,647



Maybe if it were just a matter of just having a computer and wanting to write sometning up, and not being a licence or rights issue there would be plenty of source material for any place on the map imaginable?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nath
post Jun 26 2019, 10:36 PM
Post #46


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,759
Joined: 11-December 02
From: France
Member No.: 3,723



QUOTE (Nstol_wisper @ Jun 26 2019, 11:48 PM) *
Maybe if it were just a matter of just having a computer and wanting to write sometning up, and not being a licence or rights issue there would be plenty of source material for any place on the map imaginable?
The year was 2000 and there were plenty of websites around created by people with a computer and the will to write something up.

The result was basically three different versions of Pittsburgh, twice as much for Tokyo, not all of them good, and still nothing about Algeria or Congo. In that regards, license or rights issues do not matter as much as having a line developper in charge with the authority to set a common canon and what to cover.

The EuroSB project was somewhere in between. Actually, its initial goal was to publish material on a website (the opportunity to publish Shadows of Europe came later). The group was acting as an editorial committee, with a significant effort regarding canon continuity with the official line.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nstol_wisper
post Jun 27 2019, 11:35 AM
Post #47


Moving Target
**

Group: Validating
Posts: 184
Joined: 19-June 19
From: Skipping stones in the Foundation.....
Member No.: 221,647



QUOTE (Nath @ Jun 26 2019, 05:36 PM) *
The year was 2000 and there were plenty of websites around created by people with a computer and the will to write something up.

The result was basically three different versions of Pittsburgh, twice as much for Tokyo, not all of them good, and still nothing about Algeria or Congo. In that regards, license or rights issues do not matter as much as having a line developper in charge with the authority to set a common canon and what to cover.

The EuroSB project was somewhere in between. Actually, its initial goal was to publish material on a website (the opportunity to publish Shadows of Europe came later). The group was acting as an editorial committee, with a significant effort regarding canon continuity with the official line.


A situation very hard to imagine since.
As Companies are very protective of their trademarks. I'm sure with some effort an independent writing project can make the web. But as a popular source material? Without access to the resources as a developer inside the product?
And to support the reasoning of trademarks is the lack of english translations to several Europe source materials. Being very likely an effort to protect their creative production due to incompatable licencing environments.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nstol_wisper
post Jun 27 2019, 01:57 PM
Post #48


Moving Target
**

Group: Validating
Posts: 184
Joined: 19-June 19
From: Skipping stones in the Foundation.....
Member No.: 221,647



I looked up some info on Shadows of Europe and I found that a German company called Fan Pro LLC was the distributer who transfered the rights to their part of Shadowrun to Catalyst Around the time 4th edition was released.
Any European content developed under Fan Pro would have likely been help up rather than directly transfered to the new developer.
Which would expalin the lack of source material from that region and/or the lack of official translations for materials that were released around that time and since.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hermit
post Jun 27 2019, 02:07 PM
Post #49


The King In Yellow
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,922
Joined: 26-February 05
From: JWD
Member No.: 7,121



QUOTE
A situation very hard to imagine since.
As Companies are very protective of their trademarks. I'm sure with some effort an independent writing project can make the web. But as a popular source material? Without access to the resources as a developer inside the product?

The situation now is not different from the situation then. The scene still is relatively small and relevant people are accessible enough; plus, SR has rules on their site regarding such creative endeavours. The chsange has been more in the audience, less in how IPs are handled in the gaming industry, at least with long-running systems like SR.

QUOTE
And to support the reasoning of trademarks is the lack of english translations to several Europe source materials. Being very likely an effort to protect their creative production due to incompatable licencing environments.

Bullshit. They explicitly have the rights to English translations of all sub-licensee publications. CGL just doesn't think there'd be enough of an audience for translated products to be economically viable (enough).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nstol_wisper
post Jun 28 2019, 03:21 PM
Post #50


Moving Target
**

Group: Validating
Posts: 184
Joined: 19-June 19
From: Skipping stones in the Foundation.....
Member No.: 221,647



But that does not mean an effort originating in another country has no barriers to assisting in such a collaboration.
But barriers have significantly been reduced over the years, and there has been more and more individual interest.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V  < 1 2 3 4 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 22nd June 2025 - 11:33 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.