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#26
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,973 Joined: 4-June 10 Member No.: 18,659 ![]() |
I'm going to go out on a limb and say 'inconsistent'.
The factors that have led to the editing and errata disaster of 5e have not changed, nor has CGL shown any sign of listening to the frustrations of the fans regarding them. |
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#27
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 587 Joined: 27-January 07 From: United States Member No.: 10,812 ![]() |
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#28
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
well, they have an errata team already, so it sounds like at least they're trying to look like they're trying to improve.
... that said, i have my doubts about the errata team getting anything in before the first printing. and there isn't really a huge difference between not having an errata team and not using an errata team. |
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#29
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The King In Yellow ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 ![]() |
QUOTE ("The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia") normiespeak Really. Well ... QUOTE (The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia) At the end of the day they’re modern Nazis—nothing more, nothing less. Give them nothing except a punch in the face or a bullet to the brainpan. Let their own words do the talking. |
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#30
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,089 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
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#31
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 184 Joined: 19-June 19 From: Skipping stones in the Foundation..... Member No.: 221,647 ![]() |
As a rule of thumb, useful descriptions of countries always had to be done by people at least living in the general area. See Shadows of Europe for a prime example. That is not a reason not to have a sourcebook from here or there. I'm sure of the fact that it was not a question of willingness on an author's part. It was more likely licencing and the extra work associated with clearing contributions from other countries. Seems trivial but several potential sources likely suffered due to the tangle of incompatible licence proceedures. I myself feel that the companies involved did and still do a great job under the circumstances. Shadows of Europe is a great sourcebook, and it's a shame that the effort was never repeated, in english, for later editions...... |
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#32
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,647 Joined: 22-April 12 From: somewhere far beyond sanity Member No.: 51,886 ![]() |
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#33
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The King In Yellow ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 ![]() |
QUOTE I'm sure of the fact that it was not a question of willingness on an author's part. It was, for all I know, much more a case of author's death - Findley's - that stopped a 2nd Edition Africa book. QUOTE Shadows of Europe is a great sourcebook, and it's a shame that the effort was never repeated, in english, for later editions...... There's Shadows of Latin America. The quality of writing in SoE is mixed. Some of it - Portugal, Spain, ScandU, UNL - is pretty nice, largely locally sourced, and usually imported internet fanwork from the webring age. A lot is basically slightly updated summaries - Britain, TNN, Germany. Those rise and fall in usefulness with the original source material (I like Sargent/Gascoigne's work for the most part, and really dislike the old Germany book, even tempered as it was by DidS2, but that's personal preference). A lot of Europe is more or less ignored in SoE - Eastern Europe mainly, where only Poland, the Czech Republic and Austria got any significant coverage. The Balkans, the Black Sea countries, all that's pretty much ignored (at least Ukraine got a writeup in Shadows of Asia, though being a European country geographically). The rest is across the map - Greece is way too X-Men for my tastes, Italy a painful cliché, Poland and Czech Republic at least offer good hooks. LEaving out Hungary, which has had a viable Shadowrun fanbase since the 90s, is quite regrettable, though I think Taylor did try to get someone there nboard back in the day. It's better, of course, to locally source such writeups, but it'S no guarantee the results are good. Careful research and a measure of respect for the places covered can also go a long way. |
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#34
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Keeper of the Timeline Maps ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 21-December 10 Member No.: 19,243 ![]() |
A lot of Europe is more or less ignored in SoE - Eastern Europe mainly, where only Poland, the Czech Republic and Austria got any significant coverage. The Balkans, the Black Sea countries, all that's pretty much ignored I think that might have been for lack of contributions though. They wanted people from a country to write about it. https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/EuroSB The rest is across the map - Greece is way too X-Men for my tastes, You mean what was written about it in the short "The Rest of Europe" section? Well, that also briefly discussed Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Königberg, Belarus, Ukraine, Hungary, Slovakia and the Balkans (without stable countries). I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page. |
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#35
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The King In Yellow ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 ![]() |
QUOTE I think that might have been for lack of contributions though. They wanted people from a country to write about it. If I remember correctly it actually was about space - Peter Taylor had written an extensive document about the Balkans, especially former Yugoslavia, but they cut it and the file then died in an HDD crash of Taylor'S, presumably lost forever. QUOTE I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page. That'd indeed be interesting. Also, by "too X-Men" I meant too much focus on setting-specific things, and too little local flair. The Baltics would deserve a bit more coverage too, and Ukraine got its coverage in SoA, if I am not mistaken. |
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#36
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 184 Joined: 19-June 19 From: Skipping stones in the Foundation..... Member No.: 221,647 ![]() |
I expect more sourcebooks from Africa. I have no evidence.
But I have looked at Android: Netrunner and one of final card boosters, if not the final was set in Africa. And the work done on those looks a bit like the more recent content additions in Shadowrun to me. For that matter plenty of new sourcebooks, hopefully another for Europe should be expected. Keep the local flair comming,,,,,, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif) |
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#37
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,089 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
That is not a reason not to have a sourcebook from here or there. It wasn't intended as a reason not to have one, just as an explanation why there is none: Local books were typically done by local fans wanting to see their country covered, but RPGs do not seem to have the community in Africa they have elsewhere, or at least that community does not mingle much with the "western" community. |
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#38
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 ![]() |
I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page. I still have a copy of the proposed outline and several draft versions for the Greece chapter, but I don't remember Rob Boyle reasoning behind dropping it. What was proposed mostly stayed clear off the crossover - maybe he wasn't sure about going that way or the other way round. On the other hand, I think Greece was going to be one of the weakest chapters. It clearly lacked a central plot or theme. With SoE already pushing on the limits with 240 pages and lot of context missing (regarding the Balkans, Turkey...), I guess it made sense to drop it.It wasn't intended as a reason not to have one, just as an explanation why there is none: Local books were typically done by local fans wanting to see their country covered, but RPGs do not seem to have the community in Africa they have elsewhere, or at least that community does not mingle much with the "western" community. Shadows of Europe, derived from the EuroSB project, is the only sourcebook written by locals fans. As far as I remember, only three of Shadows of Asia authors could be considered locals: Jong-Won Kim in Korea, Anthony Bruno in Israel and Palestine and Mikael Brodu in Thailand (though by now Tony and Mike have each spent a solid decade in those countries, when SoA was written they were only freshly in). Major chapters like Russia, India, China and Japan were written by US or European authors. Then the cancelled Shadows of Latin America was somewhere in between.Though I have absolutly no idea where were US authors living, I'm not sure any of the books covering North American countries fit in the "local fan made" description either (though I still wonder how they picked the cities covered The Neo-anarchist Guide to North America). London Sourcebook and Tir na nOg were both written by Mark Sargent and Carl Gascoigne which, though they may count as "locals" for the former, were seasoned enough as writers to not be considered as mere "fans". Deutschland in der Schatten and France were written by authors hired by the publishing companies who held Shadowrun rights for their respective countries. |
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#39
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 ![]() |
QUOTE (The Neo-Anarchist Streetpedia) At the end of the day they’re modern Nazis—nothing more, nothing less. Give them nothing except a punch in the face or a bullet to the brainpan. Let their own words do the talking. I'd appreciate some clarification on exactly what you mean by this comment. |
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#40
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Keeper of the Timeline Maps ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 21-December 10 Member No.: 19,243 ![]() |
I think the full write-up for Greece was left out deliberately because of its potential for the SR-ED-crossover. Hm, I should find that reference and put it on the EuroSB wiki page. Found it right here on Dumpshock: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=4228 Unfortunately yes, the Federal Republic of Hellas (aka Greece) was cut in development of SoE. The EuroSB crew had considerable material on the current situation for use in the book, but exactly because of Greece's historic peculiarities it was decided to leave it out for a eventual book where it would get significantly more attention. And "because of Greece's historic peculiarities" should refer to what Ancient History said: Greece is iffy right about now, like the Ukraine, do to possible ED connections, [...]
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#41
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The King In Yellow ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 ![]() |
Let their own words do the talking. I'd appreciate some clarification on exactly what you mean by this comment. Three Nazis walk into a BAR. They don't get up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Seriously though, CGL is showing a frustrating lenience towards Nazis on its staff, and has throughout Hardy's rein, starting with WAR. Following up on those big words in reality (by letting them go/blacklisting them), macho chest-drumming aside, would be a good start. That enough clarification for you? |
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#42
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Keeper of the Timeline Maps ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 21-December 10 Member No.: 19,243 ![]() |
https://shadowrun.fandom.com/wiki/EuroSB
I have updated the wiki. (Glad to see more information about material that was cut. Any chance of publishing these Greece chapter drafts for SoE?) Other than that we should get back to more Streetpedia appreciation. |
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#43
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 184 Joined: 19-June 19 From: Skipping stones in the Foundation..... Member No.: 221,647 ![]() |
I think that maybe they should have covered more AA and lower rated corps?
It would not have taken up much space. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) |
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#44
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,089 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
to not be considered as mere "fans". Who said anything about "mere fans"? A fan does not have to be an amateur QUOTE Deutschland in der Schatten and France were written by authors hired by the publishing companies who held Shadowrun rights for their respective countries. DidS and France are obvious cases of people wanting to have their neighborhood represented in a game the play, and wanting it to be at least as cool as the American setting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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#45
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 184 Joined: 19-June 19 From: Skipping stones in the Foundation..... Member No.: 221,647 ![]() |
Maybe if it were just a matter of just having a computer and wanting to write sometning up, and not being a licence or rights issue there would be plenty of source material for any place on the map imaginable?
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#46
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,759 Joined: 11-December 02 From: France Member No.: 3,723 ![]() |
Maybe if it were just a matter of just having a computer and wanting to write sometning up, and not being a licence or rights issue there would be plenty of source material for any place on the map imaginable? The year was 2000 and there were plenty of websites around created by people with a computer and the will to write something up.The result was basically three different versions of Pittsburgh, twice as much for Tokyo, not all of them good, and still nothing about Algeria or Congo. In that regards, license or rights issues do not matter as much as having a line developper in charge with the authority to set a common canon and what to cover. The EuroSB project was somewhere in between. Actually, its initial goal was to publish material on a website (the opportunity to publish Shadows of Europe came later). The group was acting as an editorial committee, with a significant effort regarding canon continuity with the official line. |
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#47
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 184 Joined: 19-June 19 From: Skipping stones in the Foundation..... Member No.: 221,647 ![]() |
The year was 2000 and there were plenty of websites around created by people with a computer and the will to write something up. The result was basically three different versions of Pittsburgh, twice as much for Tokyo, not all of them good, and still nothing about Algeria or Congo. In that regards, license or rights issues do not matter as much as having a line developper in charge with the authority to set a common canon and what to cover. The EuroSB project was somewhere in between. Actually, its initial goal was to publish material on a website (the opportunity to publish Shadows of Europe came later). The group was acting as an editorial committee, with a significant effort regarding canon continuity with the official line. A situation very hard to imagine since. As Companies are very protective of their trademarks. I'm sure with some effort an independent writing project can make the web. But as a popular source material? Without access to the resources as a developer inside the product? And to support the reasoning of trademarks is the lack of english translations to several Europe source materials. Being very likely an effort to protect their creative production due to incompatable licencing environments. |
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#48
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 184 Joined: 19-June 19 From: Skipping stones in the Foundation..... Member No.: 221,647 ![]() |
I looked up some info on Shadows of Europe and I found that a German company called Fan Pro LLC was the distributer who transfered the rights to their part of Shadowrun to Catalyst Around the time 4th edition was released.
Any European content developed under Fan Pro would have likely been help up rather than directly transfered to the new developer. Which would expalin the lack of source material from that region and/or the lack of official translations for materials that were released around that time and since. |
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#49
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The King In Yellow ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 ![]() |
QUOTE A situation very hard to imagine since. As Companies are very protective of their trademarks. I'm sure with some effort an independent writing project can make the web. But as a popular source material? Without access to the resources as a developer inside the product? The situation now is not different from the situation then. The scene still is relatively small and relevant people are accessible enough; plus, SR has rules on their site regarding such creative endeavours. The chsange has been more in the audience, less in how IPs are handled in the gaming industry, at least with long-running systems like SR. QUOTE And to support the reasoning of trademarks is the lack of english translations to several Europe source materials. Being very likely an effort to protect their creative production due to incompatable licencing environments. Bullshit. They explicitly have the rights to English translations of all sub-licensee publications. CGL just doesn't think there'd be enough of an audience for translated products to be economically viable (enough). |
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#50
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 184 Joined: 19-June 19 From: Skipping stones in the Foundation..... Member No.: 221,647 ![]() |
But that does not mean an effort originating in another country has no barriers to assisting in such a collaboration.
But barriers have significantly been reduced over the years, and there has been more and more individual interest. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 22nd June 2025 - 11:33 PM |
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