I see you didn't mention 3rd Edition. Is that the one you like?
And, if Edge and Limits were not in the game you would have to still deal with the loss of Essence which would likely take on a more severe penalty.

Technically speaking, SR3 is the best edition there has ever been.
Highly impractical for playing though, for exactly the same reason.

Sorry, but how does that make any sense at all? Could you elaborate?
I mean, you're obviously talking about 5th, where limits are such a joke that the mechanic got removed again, and Essence loss was made more severe for some unfathomable reason.
But I'm not following your reasoning here in any way.

i like both 3rd and 4th better than 5th (and 6th, if the previews are giving me an accurate picture of things). i suspect i'd like 2nd better too, since it is rather similar to 3rd, but i'm not really familiar enough with it to say for certain. in any event, each of those editions have problems too, i'm just not convinced those problems are as much of an issue as 5th has, or as much of an issue as i am expecting 6th to have.

i'm not clear on why you think edge and limits inherently would make essence loss a worse thing, though. there isn't any particular reason why essence loss must be worse just because there are no limits or edge (note: i'm not opposed to edge, i'm opposed to edge as 6th edition handles it. edge isn't new to 6th edition, and frankly i think 6th edition's edge mechanic is the worst incarnation of edge/karma pool they've ever implemented).

Something of note here.

4th edition removed Karma Pool along with all the other Pools - Combat, Magic, Matrix, etc. Basically, adding attributes to skills was to replace the regular pools with fixed modifiers, while Edge was to replace the Karma Pool. On the other hand, the way you could use the pools to focus on offense or defense during Turn was at best replicated through the use of Edge.

Now, what 6th Edition calls "Edge" is quite different from the 4h and 5th Edition Edge, and as such also differs from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition Karma Pool. If anything, it should rather be considered as a merger of the Combat/Magic/Matrix pools of old.

I kind of see the concept of Karma Pools from 4th and Edge later as an expression of confidence. If you recieve karma or edge for successful actions with a degree difficultly, then they should be replenished quickly.
If not immediately like the Sixth World rules suggest.

they were never an expression of confidence. it has in the past been a combination of luck, skill, experience, determination, and other things that are not necessarily so clearly defined within the game. it is one thing to have some small element of morale thrown into the mix and another thing entirely to remove everything except for that... and it is even more silly for your confidence coming from wearing heavy armour to make you a better contortionist. and yet even more silly that your confidence in your stealth would *increase* when someone notices you and decides to shoot you.

i should also point out that the new system more or less kills off edge as a valuable and worthwhile attribute to spend points on. in earlier editions, an 8 edge individual would go into a run with 8 times as much edge as someone with 1 edge. in sixth edition, probably at most half, because they gain edge at the same rate and share the same cap anyways. not that 8 edge does anything anymore, given the cap in edge points is 7.

i suppose that will certainly have the result of making metatypes a lot more common. why bother being human when every other race can spend their bonus priority points on actual useful attributes, in addition to having other advantages like increased attribute caps, while the human is stuck spending those points on something that has extremely limited value at best?

So the the fact that Metahumans by design likely could not afford max Edge, likely because points were spent elsewhere.....
Makes Edge more viable as a a game mechanic? Interesting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
But a 2 to 1 Edge advantage for humans in Sixth World which I think will be common, in the new system will make that advantage so much more obvious.

If it affected your top max maybe, but everyone gets capped at 7.

Sure going into a scene cold means those with a higher edge can start the party rolling a bit faster, but players should be able to quickly turn the tide by taking strategic situational advantage.

Or players should be able to tactically be able to see their opening based on what they do best, and wait if necessary to affect the encounter without worrying about how much edge another character has or what metatype.

But can it be said that the mechanics of Edge more specifically when a character lacks a high edge count compared to say, a character with a full edge count can be considered eroding to the first's confidence if they always expect to be in that situation?

No.

Edge is a completely abstract catchall mechanic.

Edge and Karma Pool represented the unknown quality of "Luck" in a universe where Karma as a spiritual or mystical concept had a direct impact on people's day to day existences. Confidence had nothing to do with it.

I have read the descriptions of Karma and Edge in the rulebooks. And yes, the opinions on my mention of confidence are true, it is not part of the explaination of what the latter are abstracting.
That is not what I was speaking of. I was thinking of the the real player's reaction if they are faced with such problems to solve.
Can, Will such a situation effect the person's real confidence in a negative way thus effecting the decision making of the real person while playing?

well, first of all, humans are heavily disincentivised to max edge. so i doubt 2 to 1 will be more common at all. in fact, it is heavily disincentivized for ANYONE to max edge, because you have the same cap, and no matter what, you gain it at the same rate. a 7 to 1 advantage in edge attribute likely only means a 2 to 1 advantage in how much edge you have. in contrast, a 7 to 1 advantage in body attribute will likely represent close to that same ratio advantage on soak rolls.

building for edge is a bad idea. that doesn't make edge more viable as pretty much anything except as a completely nonsensical arbitrary method of converting being "good" at one thing into being good at anything else on the face of the planet with no rhyme or reason, even extending to things where being good at that one thing should logically make you *worse* at the other thing.




well, you're probably right that they won't worry about how much edge attribute another character has, because it's probably going to be the same no matter what race they are. humans will most likely just not be able to meaningfully spend bonus attribute points gained from putting race higher, which is more likely to mean lower attributes overall. if attributes weren't just about the most powerful thing to have in shadowrun, that could work out, of course, but since each point of attributes are worth so much it essentially means the average human will just be rolling less dice in normal situations because they only had one good source of attributes, not two.

meanwhile, the guy with 7 edge is not in fact better able to hold back and wait; he's already capped, so if he wants to make use of the resource of gaining edge, he needs to spend it immediately. it's the person with mediocre edge who can stand back and let the edge roll in if necessary.



unlikely. they still gain current edge points in exactly the same way, and have the exact same cap, plus the value of each individual point of current edge has gone way down as a result of needing multiple points to accomplish what a single point could do in the past. having 7 edge at the start of a fight likely won't let you do a huge amount more than having 3 or so starting edge.

but seriously, it's really starting to look like you haven't actually familiarized yourself with the rules information we have available. it feels like you're spouting random assertions based on blind assumptions more than anything else. have you even looked through the available resources to find out about the things we already know in 6e? not the stuff where the designers make wild claims about how awesome its going to be, i mean actual direct answers about how the rules work. i don't care if hardy *thinks* edge is the bee's knees, i care about what the actual rules say, and the rules they've described do not accomplish the things you seem to think they accomplish.

So, Because I don't echo your opinions about someting I must be misinformed?
If you don't like some aspect of the game's rules then that's your problem. Obviously you don't like the concept of edge or limits or how it's been implemented in the past. And you go through great lengths and multi paragraph posts to insist that something is broken, Again your problem.
Do not associate your directed verbal rants at developers and such with me.
I just happen to like the game and I appreciate what the developers are doing, my opinion.
This does not make me an authority any more than your wordy degradations make you the expert on the topic.
So just try to chill out and have a civil discussion or leave the issue alone.

i am suggesting you are misinformed because your opinion doesn't match the facts.

you claim that someone with high edge can just take it easy when in actual *fact* the only way for them to get *anything* out of their high edge is to immediately go full tryhard.

you claim that humans getting around twice as much edge for 7 times the investment is a powerful option when it is plainly far less powerful than it should be.

you claim that someone with high edge can just go into a fight confidence as a player when it has already been extensively demonstrated that high edge attribute means very little.

you claim that my problem with edge and limits are how it was handled in the past, when in fact it is the exact opposite and i think that this new future version of edge is going to be the absolute worst implementation of it ever.

you can certainly have the opinion that you like the changes that are coming, and that being subjective i can't say *that* is wrong. if you like them, you like them. but when you make assertions about how the rules work when they work in a clearly different way that has already been described and discussed, those aren't a matter of opinion, and you can be wrong.

*having flashbacks of Neurosis*

I've got to disagree here.
Edge is (mostly) luck, yes, but Karma Pool accumulated with rising experience, making it more than luck, but also a measure of that high experience.
Of course, raising Edge with earned Karma can approximate this, but since this is voluntary, and not automatic, there are distinct differences between the two.

Am I the only one one totally lost about what Jaid and Nstol are arguing about?

Not totally lost, have you been keeping up on the revised Edge and how it is operating for 6th?

I saw what was summarized here but only on what it could be used, not how it refreshes and stuff like that. Well, it sounded bad but I remain open minded.

I think I got too that armor grants edge. If that's the case, it looks even weirder.


A good concept is a concept that is easy to explain and clear.


I didn't got the arguments of both sides and about what they argue about. The quality of the Edge system on 6th? How it works? What is supposed to be Edge?

I'm lost.

A SR writer's comments on the combat changes:

https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/2019/07...-e4k9DsnZC9TwG0

Still not sold on the change to Armor, smacks of old THACO, but we will see.

That's THAC0, if you please.

Don't make me dig out all my old books to give you scholarly references. You wouldn't like me when I make scholarly references.

LOL,

Indeed, mea culpa.


Spell durations remain as before, ie Instant, Sustained or Permanent.
Rumours of some Manipulation spells getting a durations appear to be incorrect, which is kind of a shame as I was hoping to see things like Armor and a few other spells getting durations would have been handy.