Jon's Glorious Karma Character Generation System

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Jon's Glorious Karma Character Generation System, beyond BeCKS

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Cochise View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 11:34 AM Post #51
Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376	QUOTE (sk8bcn @ May 3 2013, 09:50 AM) How do you get 26 dices? Huh What? As I said: It's an extreme form of min-/maxing. Some aspects of the second dwarf are bound to ignite a serious discussion (one that was lead on this board many times and with no definite answer). For the sake of keeping this thread clean, I will have to ask from anyone who is reading this post to refrain from commenting what he/she might perceive as rule breaking or against SR3's RAW, since all aspects involved have been discussed "to death" on various occasions and I'm absolutley positive that no one would be able to bring up any new arguments that would invalidate the involved interpretations. In particlular anyone looking at the numbers must also carefully read the comments below the "code"-section. Otherwise I (or Jon) will have to request moderation to take actions. [ Spoiler ] CODE Edges: 1. Ambidexterity Lvl. III (6 BP) 2. Aptitude (Clubs) (4 BP) 3. add. attribute point [BOD] (2 BP) 4. add. attribute point [QUI] (2 BP) 5. add. attribute point [INT] (2 BP) --------------------------------------- Sum of BP: 16 BP Flaws: 1. Bad Karma (-5 BP) 2. Cursed Karma (-6 BP) 3. Allergy [citrus fruits] (-4 BP) (uncommon, severe) 4. Cortex Bomb [area effect] (-6 BP) 5. Combat Monster (-1 BP) --------------------------------------- Sum of negative BP: -22 BP MK I: 126 BP - 5 BP Dwarf - 30 BP Adept of the Magician's Way - 48 BP 24 attribute points - 18 BP 18 active skill points - 25 BP 650.000¥ resources ----------------------------- 0 BP Attributes: Name B E R Body: 4 5 6 Strength 4 4 6 Quickness: 4 5 5 Charisma: 3 3 3 Intelligence: 4 5 5 Willpower: 5 5 6 --------------------------- Sums: 24 27 31 Magic: 6 [3] Essence: 6 Reaction: 5 Initiative: 5 + 1W6 Combat Pool: 8 Sorcery Pool: 4 Legend: B = Distributed attribute points from the original 24 attribute points E = B + add. attribute points from Edges R = E + racial modifiers Side note: The values of column "R" are relevant for skill cost calculation Skills ( just active ones): Name Level Cost Arnis de Mano 3 3 BP - close combat maneuver 2 BP - close combat maneuver (clubs) 2 BP Clubs 6 6 BP Sorcery(Spell Defense) 2(4) 3 BP Etiquette [Street] 1(3) 2 BP --------------------------------------- Sum: 18 BP Adept Powers: Name Level Cost Magic Talent (voluntary geased) 3 2.25 PP Improved Ability [Clubs] (vol.geased) 6 2.25 PP Counterstrike (vol.geased) 4 1.5 PP ------------------------------------------------------ Sum: 6 PP Side note: Magic Talent Level 3 provides 18 Spell Points Gear: Name Rating/Force Cost Sai 110¥ Weapon focus (Sai) 6 640.110¥ Rapid Transit Jumpsuit 550¥ Helmet for RTJ 55¥ under arm protectors 275¥ FFBA (full) 2.200¥ Actioneer Longcoat 1.650¥ Lifestyle: Low (5 months) 5.000¥ -------------------------------------------- Sum: 649.950¥ Side note: The weapon focus is bound with the 18 Spell Points coming from Magic Talent Armor Values: Ballistics: 5 Impact (from range): 7 Impact (in melee): 8 Dice pool for character's specialty (using his two Sais) when attacking: Source main hand off hand total Skill Rating 6 3 9 Weapon Focus 6 3 9 Impr. Ability 6 3 9 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 18 9 27 Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1 Sai 2 1 3 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 20 10 30 Dice Pool when defending: Source main hand off hand total like attack 18 9 27 Counterstrike 4 2 6 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 22 11 33 Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1 which is allowed even in defense Sai 2 1 3 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 24 12 36 All attacks for specialty have a base target number of 3 MK II: 126 BP - 5 BP Dwarf - 30 BP Adept of the Magician's Way - 40 BP 20 attribute points - 21 BP 21 active skill points - 30 BP 1.000.000¥ resources ----------------------------- 0 BP Attributes: Name B E R N Body: 3 4 5 5 Strength: 4 4 6 6 Quickness: 3 4 4 5 Charisma: 3 3 3 3 Intelligence: 2 3 3 5 Willpower: 5 5 6 6 ------------------------------- Sums: 20 23 27 30 Magic: 5 [4] Essence: 6 Bioindex 1.9 (0.95 affecting magic attribute) Reaction: 5 Initiative: 5 + 1W6 Combat Pool: 8 Sorcery Pool: 5 Task Pool: 1 (intelligence bases tasks only) Legend: B = Distributed attribute points from the original 20 attribute points E = B + add. attribute points from Edges R = E + racial modifiers N = R + Bioware Side note: The values of column "R" are relevant for skill cost calculation, although an argument could be made that Bioware affected attributes are treated as natural and thus would be the basis for calculation. This matter was left out on purpose and it doesn't have effects here anyways. Bioware Implantats: Name Bioindex Cost Enhanced Articulation 0.6 40.000¥ Cerebral Booster II 0.8 110.000¥ Muscle Toner I 0.4 25.000¥ Reflex Recorder (Sai) 0.1 10.000¥ --------------------------------------------- Sums: 1.9 185.000¥ Side note: Magic loss to the overall Magic Attribute as per M&M Errata: 1.9/2= 0,95 = 1 (rounded up) Skills (active one only): Name Level Cost Arnis de Mano 3 3 BP - close combat maneuver 2 BP - close combat maneuver (clubs) 2 BP Clubs 6 6 BP Clubs B/R 1 1 BP Sorcery(Spell Defense) 2(4) 3 BP Stealth(Sneaking) 1(3) 2 BP Etiquette [Street] 1(3) 2 BP --------------------------------------- Sum: 21 BP Adept Powers (Base values): Name Level Cost Magic Talent (voluntary geased) 6 4.5 PP Improved Ability [Clubs] (vol.geased) 4 1.5 PP ------------------------------------------------------ Sum: 6 PP Magic talent 6 equals 36 Spell Points. 12 Spell Points are used for: 1. 3 SP for joinuing a magical circle (the two standard connections are assumed to be part of the circle) 2. 9 SP for initiation in a group with ordeal(oath) Aquired metamagic: Atunement [item] Gained Power Point due to magic increase: Counterstrike (vol.geased) 2 0.75 PP Improved senses (flash compensation) 0.25 PP ------------------------------------------------------- Sum: 1 PP Side note: Due to the MK II's bioware implants he will suffer a magic loss with a value of 1. Since Adepts of the Magician's Way rule wise always must substract magic loss from the Magic Talent power and this particular power is already under effect of a voluntary geas, the character is forced to give up Magic Talent with a combined PP value of 1. Due to the cost reduction of the volunatry geas this leads to him losing 2 levels of this power instead of just one. Thus his overall magic rating drops to 5, while is magic rating for sorcery (and theoretically conjuring) drops to 4 We still have 24 Spell Points for other purposes. Gear: Name Rating/Force Cost Sai 110¥ Weapon focus (Sai) 6 640.110¥ Rapid Transit Jumpsuit 550¥ Helmet for RTJ 55¥ under arm protectors 275¥ FFBA (full) 2.200¥ Actioneer Longcoat 1.650¥ Lifestyle: Low (5 months) 5.000¥ Dikote for Sai(non-focus) 4.000¥ - assumed surfeace of 400cm² Rutheniumpolymer coating for clothes 80.000¥ - 8m² should suffice to cover longcoat, humpsuit, boots, FFBA mask and helmet for a "stumpy" dwarf 12 scanner for Ruthenium "invis" 60.000¥ 20 reservce akku packs 1.000¥ ---------------------------------------------- Sum: 814.950¥ Total expenses for gear and implants: 999950¥ Further info: The weapon focus is bound with 18 of the remaining 24 Spell Points coming from Magic Talent The last 6 Spell Points are used to get attuned to the main hand weapon (the non focus sai). As OR for atunement a value of 6 seems to be adequate when looking at the values for a handcrafted blade (5) and a modern world Katana (7) The weapon focus sai goes into "off-hand" due to two reasons: 1. By RAW the dicoted non focus sai will have a +1 power (as stupid as it sounds), but not an increase of damage level (due to being a club and not a weapon with edges that are used for cutting). 2. The skill increase provided by a weapon focus is rule wise totally unaffected by the hand in which the focus is held. Armor Values: Ballistics: 5 Impact (from range): 7 Impact (in melee): 8 Dice pool for character's specialty (using his two Sais) when attacking: Source main hand off hand total Skill Rating 6 3 9 Weapon Focus 6 3 9 Improv. Abil. 4 2 6 Enhanced Articul. 1 - 1 Reflex Recorder 1 - 1 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 18 8 26 Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1 Sai 2 1 3 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 20 9 29 Side note: An argument could be made to add the bonus dice from Enhanced Articulation and Reflex Recorder into a single value of 2 thus allowing an additional die for off hand derived of that value. For the sake of simplicity the above described situation uses "worst case" for the character by only taking the lower value. Dice Pool when defending: Source main hand off hand total like attack 18 8 26 Counterstrike 2 1 3 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 20 9 29 Special case situation: When trying to disarm opponent with melee weaponry with range 0 or 1 which is allowed even in defense Sai 2 1 3 ---------------------------------------- Sums: 22 10 32 All attacks for specialty have a base target number of 2 General annotations: Starting values for build points are 120 Building Points and the suggested maximum net gain of 6 BP when apllying Edges and Flaws. Edges and Flaws are listed upfront, since they are used for both versions. I'm totally aware that the Companion warns against the Aptitude Edge being used for combat related skills and thus is subject to gm's approval, but the important part is: It's not outright forbidden and is of no importance when calculating the dice pools. The MK II version makes use of the again gm depended allowance of spell point based initiation. I will not go into a debate on how and why the character gets both a metamagic and a Power Point. Someone interested in details: Search this forum. There have been various discussions on the issue. The above examples do not even touch the subject of "High Power"-Character creation as per optional rules from "Mr. Johnson's little Black Book". But I can assure you that the use of said optional rules would allow to "worsen" both versions. When looking at the Mk II you'll notice that he overall fields less dice than MK I. However, he also has a lower base target number and his ruthenium polymer coating will allow him to constantly impose a permanent visibility modifier of at least +3 upon his opponents: 12 scanners provide a maximum of +12 as vision modifier. Ultrasound and (natural) IR-sight both provide the maximum reduction by halving it to a value of 6. In melee all vision modifiers are additionally halved => +3 at bare minimum. I do know that Jon sees SotA'64 (and thus MK II's item atunement) as "Liber Non Grata", but he cannot enforce such a restriction upon me, when evaluating his rules for my purposes. Despite those rather "insane" dice numbers both dwarfs cannot guarantee victory against any melee opponent. Well (or similarly) built melee trolls will on average lose during the combat tests and then simply shrug off the damage during the damage resistance tests. But the goal of this exercise wasn't aimed at building "the ultimate killer martial artist" but someone who simply won't lose (since a stand still between two opponents doesn't qualify as loss) unless being extremely unlucky. I don't need reminders on how any given gm can easily find ways to "beat" these characters outside their field of specialization or hanging them by their Flaws either. @ Stahlseele ... I thought that I had shown you these dwarfs on previous occasions on a different board.

sk8bcn View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 12:00 PM Post #52
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 702 Joined: 21-August 08 From: France Member No.: 16,265	ah, okay. that 2 hand fight rule is an optional one I guess since I haven't seen it in the books. And I imagine I wouldn't allow adding half focus and adept power again. That plus the risk of breaking the bond... Well it's a nicely done min/maxing tough not a real PC in a sense.

Stahlseele View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 12:06 PM Post #53
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	@cochise: possible, my memory ain't what it used to be anymore . . furthermore: please, spoiler-tags? ^^

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 12:28 PM Post #54
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	QUOTE (Cochise @ May 2 2013, 10:19 PM) I'd argue that improved ability explicitly raises the connected skill level and thus the correct number of combat pool dice for the main hand (since the dual-wield rules explicitly limit it to main weapon) is actually 12 (but starting characters not reaching that number under normal conditions). In an event of astounding rarity, the text is actually clear about the treatment of something that is sort-of-but-not-quite like some other well-defined thing. P169, SR3: "Remember that Improved Ability does not actually improve a skill's rating, it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill." The justification for applying the IA bonus comes from p96, CC: "Only half of any bonus dice applied to the off-hand skill (from adept skills and son [sic] on) apply." As for point 6, I can enforce it to the extent that I can ignore criticisms based on combinations of my rules with stuff in SotA:64 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but yes, being Liber Non Grata just means that I assume it isn't in the game and don't balance or analyze based on anything within it; it doesn't mean that I react violently to anything that makes reference to it (though I still recommend against repeatedly poking me with Social Adepts). sk8bcn: two-weapon combat is "optional" in the sense that it's in the Advanced Rules section of Cannon Companion, but it isn't labeled optional (unlike some other rules in that section). ~J

Cochise View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 12:36 PM Post #55
Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,316 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376	QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 3 2013, 02:28 PM) In an event of astounding rarity, the text is actually clear about the treatment of something that is sort-of-but-not-quite like some other well-defined thing. P169, SR3: "Remember that Improved Ability does not actually improve a skill's rating, it only provides additional dice for tests involving the skill." The justification for applying the IA bonus comes from p96, CC: "Only half of any bonus dice applied to the off-hand skill (from adept skills and son [sic] on) apply." I guess I mixed up weapon focus and improved ability there.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 12:46 PM Post #56
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	For what it's worth, my reaction when I read your post was "of course, why was I treating IA like real skill points in one place but not the other?" I had entirely forgotten that bonus dice are explicitly addressed separately. ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 02:00 PM Post #57
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 2 2013, 03:41 PM) Oh ho ho ho, no! STR, under SR3, is very much a master Stat for any combat oriented Character. STR based weapons are the end all be all of SR3 basically, because of the way how the Power and Damage Levels of the SR3 Damage-System work O.o You can get a Troll up to 18 STR if you want to really hardmax. A certain Bow can, if you can get it, deal 22M Damage over 1.5 Kilometers. It's potent, don't get me wrong, but it's essentially non-concealable, can't take a… wait, actually, it can take a Smartlink, what do you know? They can only take a single accessory, though, so no Rangefinder; Short range is very short compared to longguns, and Medium is generally anemic as well; it also requires a lot of character specialization to eke out that 18 Strength. Add in the hit to Combat Pool, Reaction, and Perception, and there are an awful lot of limitations. QUOTE A Pole-Arm with Dikote will Deal STR+4=22D Damage with a 3 reach combined. Granted, these are extremes, but this is doable in Char-Gen. Of course, but you're still looking at a non-concealable melee weapon, which is pretty limiting. There's some fun potential for a ballistic riot shield+assault cannon+bayonet combo (Reach 3, (STR+2)M melee before Dikote™ (-1 Power, +1 TN while holding the shield, but see Reach and base Power), and all the ranged potential of the Assault Cannon), but that's far from chargen. QUOTE And it Adds Recoil. At STR18 3 Points. The return on investment is far from worthwhile in base SR3—it takes roughly six points of Strength to pick up a single point of Recoil Compensation, and provides almost no other bonus to ranged combat. QUOTE Out of combat, stuff like lifting/carrying Gear makes STR important too. The thing is, the Encumbrance rules are incoherent, rarely enforced due to high bookkeeping costs, and I'm pretty sure they're largely toothless in most situations. I haven't done a comprehensive item weight inventory, but even a Strength 1 character can wear a Secure Jacket, Secure Long-Coat, Full Shadowrunner Underoos, and carry a Predator-III with reasonable ammo and not go over. I did a quick "excessive" loadout (the heaviest non-military armor set, heaviest melee weapon, heaviest sniper rifle, max-gyro, ten IPE grenades, maybe some other stuff) and IIRC it only took STR 5 to carry (closing in on requiring STR 6)—which means that even if we take that as an argument for Strength, it doesn't apply to Trolls whose Strength starts at 5. QUOTE And yes, an Adept can get 6+6+6 = 18 dice Pool at char gen for several skills too. Which is one of the most broken builds you can actually get under SR3 i think . . I don't think it's so bad. They can't take cyberware with impunity, and it's only three more dice than Riggers can get (6 Gunnery, 6 Pool, 3 Sensor-Enhanced Gunnery—though actually, that's just based on the Sensors level I always took, you might be able to get a bit more). I mean, that is kind of the Adept's thing, and they spend half their Power Points for the privilege. ~J

Stahlseele View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 02:22 PM Post #58
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	Smartlink is the inferior choice for any weapon you are not planning on using at close range. Get Image Magnification 3 for your eyes. You ALWAYS shoot at short range with that. And with a Laser-Pointer you get a -1 for a 3 TN at all ranges with most weapons. Concealability depends entirely on wether or not you allow stuff like weapon mods to be applied to melee weapons too. And even if you don't, if you can get your Troll up to 16 STR and still maanage to fit in Titan or even just Ceramic Bones, then you can get your unarmed BASE Damage up to 19/20 or 20/21 M Stun Damage, depending on wether or not you allow Hardliner Gloves to stack with the Bones. If you add in 2 Cyber-Limbs, you actually get +2 Power again still. You CAN do better in Raw Power with Cyber than you can with Magic. Magic takes the ball in Damage though, because you can actually start with D Damage if you so chose. Most take Serious though, because D is unneeded in most cases due to Net hits. And if you go with the magic of skill enhancements, then you don't care for higher base damage at all, since even Trolls will have truble staging with enough net hits . .

sk8bcn View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 02:43 PM Post #59
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 702 Joined: 21-August 08 From: France Member No.: 16,265	QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ May 3 2013, 04:00 PM) Of course, but you're still looking at a non-concealable melee weapon, which is pretty limiting. There's some fun potential for a ballistic riot shield+assault cannon+bayonet combo (Reach 3, (STR+2)M melee before Dikote™ (-1 Power, +1 TN while holding the shield, but see Reach and base Power), and all the ranged potential of the Assault Cannon), but that's far from chargen. Melee damages remain unconsistent IMO when STR goes too high. A rhino hitting a wall wouldn't do more damage to it than a missile.

Stahlseele View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 02:53 PM Post #60
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	SR3 Missles deal 12M to 22D AV Damage, depending on Model. Which gets doubled against barriers, if you allow the demolitions rules to apply to them. A Rhino clocks in at about 16S i think, which gets halved against Barriers. If you don't coat the Horn with Dikote at least.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 03:16 PM Post #61
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	QUOTE (sk8bcn @ May 3 2013, 10:43 AM) Melee damages remain unconsistent IMO when STR goes too high. A rhino hitting a wall wouldn't do more damage to it than a missile. Well, there's also skill; remember that the missile will be rolling half Power in dice to stage damage, and those successes will need to be burned off before staging down (so even praying for one soak success and then buying more by burning Karma Pool may not work). That said, damage is wonky in many places—heavy blunt maces, thrown bricks, and even bowling balls all deal Stun which is inconsistent with their bone-crushing real-world effects. It's just something we're going to have to accept. ~J

Stahlseele View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 03:25 PM Post #62
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	Under SR, Blunt Damage is Stun, no matter how big. The only non stun blunt damage is the Earth hitting you on your way down i think. Oh, right, and Bone-Lacing . . but not cyberlimbs . .

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	May 3 2013, 04:46 PM Post #63
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 3 2013, 11:25 AM) Under SR, Blunt Damage is Stun, no matter how big. The only non stun blunt damage is the Earth hitting you on your way down i think. Vehicle ramming damage! Ignores armor, too. Also whips, curiously. And a bunch of Critters without pointed horns, sharp teeth, claws, or other pointy implements. But yes, for the most part Shadowrun follows the action-movie convention of "blunt damage is transient". ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 9 2013, 07:02 PM Post #64
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	So the resource formula is proving ugly enough to suggest that I may want to simply reconsider the marginal value of nuyen so that I can get some flexibility on the endpoints, but that's a whole big messy problem of its own so I'm going to go with what I have at the moment and maybe handwave some intermediate costs if I need them for certain character types. It's something I'd been getting requests to work on anyway; I've had multiple GMs complain about the problem of setting rewards for runs that on the one hand allowed the meganuyen Rigger to keep up with vehicle maintenance with a little saved up on the side but on the other hand didn't leave the dumpster-diving Street Shaman (or the Shapeshifter, for that matter) building a swimming pool filled with credsticks. In my usual compulsive-programmer-self way, after realizing how much effort would be saved if I built a character generator I dropped most of my work on other things here until I finished that. I'll try to prioritize it, and will hopefully be reemerging within a month or two (depending on how much spare time I have from other things). ~J

Stahlseele View Member Profile	Jul 9 2013, 07:28 PM Post #65
The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525	commendable.

Sendaz View Member Profile	Jul 9 2013, 07:40 PM Post #66
Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,039 Joined: 23-March 05 From: The heart of Rywfol Emwolb Industries Member No.: 7,216	s3cksy

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Aug 26 2013, 05:27 PM Post #67
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Ok, I'm coming to terms with just how much my UI development skills have rotted away, but as I work to rebuild them I've noticed that there's a very important outstanding issue that I can at least give some preliminary/setup attention to: since I've proposed making attribute bonuses from 'ware "first class", in the sense of counting towards skill improvement and possibly pools, the question of what stat bonuses you can get from 'ware becomes very important. A quick rundown (skipping cyberlimbs) follows; I mark the bonuses as follows: : the bonus is not to the attribute, but to the attribute for certain tests. Example: Tailored Pheromones. %: the bonus is explicitly limited to certain uses of the attribute. Example: Dermal Plating ("does not assist in healing") ?: The bonus is not explicitly limited, but something about the mechanism or description implies a limitation. Example: Muscle Toner, often interpreted not to help with, say, Rigging. Cyberware: Bodyware: Bone Lacing: BOD+1? (Plastic/Aluminium/Kevlar/Ceramic), BOD+2? (Titanium) Boosted Reflexes: REA+[0-2] Dermal Plating: BOD+[1-3]%? Muscle Replacement: STR+[1-4], QCK+[1-4]% Reaction Enhancer: REA+[1-6] VCR: REA+[2-6]% Wired Reflexes: REA+[2-6]% Dermal Sheath: BOD+[1-3]? Magnetic System: STR+4% Move-By-Wire: QCK+[1-4]%, REA+[2-8] Headware: Encephalon: INT+[1-2]% Bioware: Adrenal Pump: QCK+1%, STR+2, WIL+1, REA+2% (temporary) Enhanced Articulation: REA+1% Muscle Augmentation: STR+[1-4] Muscle Toner: QCK+[1-4]? Nephritic Screen: BOD+1 Suprathyroid Gland: STR+1, QCK+1%, BOD+1, REA+1% Tailored Pheromones: CHA+[1-4]* Cerebral Booster: INT+[1-2] Pain Editor: WIL+1,INT-1 (temporary) Actually, that isn't as bad as I was expecting. The big problem seems to be that there are a few attributes that have multiple distinct facets that are lumped together in the abstract but that start to come apart when you attach a specific mechanism for improving them; the two big ones are Quickness (which is physical quickness most of the time but also some "x factor" that applies to Rigging and some Decking) and Body (which is damage resistance most of the time but also folds in physical fitness and immune system strength). Charisma also has this issue, but since no 'ware gives direct CHA bonuses it never becomes an issue. ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 15 2023, 03:11 AM Post #68
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Bit shy of ten years here, but a question: anyone have any thoughts on what to do with Otaku stat progression? The canonical method doesn’t provide stat boni or penalties, just adjusting the racial max, but 54/70kp for 7/8 feels steep. For that matter, do we keep the idea of some kind of bonus for taking physical stats at 1? I suppose if we were to scrap it it would be too easy to spend 12 karma bumping everything up to 2. I’ll have to run some numbers, but between mental stats (which really need to be in the 7-8 range if not higher from edges to be competitive with Deckers) and Computers 6-8 (30-52kp) they could be looking at 366/425kp being spent on just reaching baseline competency in their specialty. Converting to stat boni would return 42/90bp, and if we give the physical stats penalties we might be able to just offer a choice between +1/-1 and +2/-2 given the enhanced costs for penalized stat levels. Any thoughts? ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 15 2023, 10:20 PM Post #69
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 2 2013, 01:05 PM) Edges/Flaws Edges: Exceptional Attribute: 10kp Aptitude: 14kp Double Jointed: 2kp High Pain Tolerance: 2kp plus 4 per box Lightning Reflexes: 4, 8, or 12kp Night Vision: 6 kp Quick Healer: 6kp Resistance to Pathogens: 2kp Resistance to Toxins: 3kp Toughness: 5kp Will to Live: 2, 4, or 6kp Bravery: 4kp College Education: 2kp Perceptive: 10kp Perfect Time: 1kp Sense of Direction: 2kp Spike Resistance: 6kp/level Technical School Education: 2kp Animal Empathy: 4kp Blandness: 6kp Friendly Face: 4kp Human Looking: 3kp Focused Concentration: 8kp Poor Link: 6kp Cracker: 8kp Vehicle Empathy: 10kp Flaws: Computer Illiterate: -10kp Borrowed Time: -20kp Sensitive System: -10kp Weak Immune System: -3kp Combat Paralysis: -14kp Oblivious: -10kp Sensitive Neural Structure: -10 or -22kp Bad Reputation: -5kp/level Distinctive Style: -4kp Astral Impressions: -14kp Codeblock: -2kp Choker: -6kp Jack Itch: -3kp Cranial Bomb: -20kp I figure I should go over the Edge/Flaw list and talk through why the ones that didn’t get costs didn’t. This will also serve to help reconstruct my memory of the reasons, and maybe bandy about some ideas. SRComp Edges/Flaws Edges: Bonus Attribute Point: this always primarily existed to give Priority some flexibility and enable limited exceeding of RML. Since S3CKS is already a non-Priority build system and permits exceeding RML at full karma price, BAP no longer serves a purpose. Home Ground: this one has always been tricky to use, and I really just haven’t put in the work to figure out a reasonable cost. It’s also awkwardly disparate in its effects based on archetype—Hermetic Mages especially, with -1TN for elemental-summoning—but is highly vulnerable to GM-screwing. If pressed I might give it 10kp off the cuff, but it needs more thought and analysis. Adrenaline Surge: this needs to be either scrapped or totally rewritten, especially since the only people who might actually benefit even vaguely reliably (people with multiple initiative dice) are forbidden from taking it. I think there was some weird way where you could get multiple Init dice without being considered to have augmented initiative (drakes maybe?), but there’s no way I’m going to keep this around just for that extremely marginal edge case. (If there’s a reader shaking their monitor with fury at this, speak up now.) Natural Immunity: just weird. If people desperately want to reenact The Princess Bride or make a combat character whose schtick is setting off chemical weapons at his feet I could be talked into giving this a cost, but in my view this edge just takes up space. Water Sprite: this is either 4 or 7 edges crammed under one umbrella, I can’t tell which, and the benefits of which are so incredibly marginal that I never actually looked closely enough to realize that the scope is ambiguous until just now (does 1BP get you a bonus to Distance Increase, or does it get you a bonus to Swimming and thus to both Distance Increase and Fatigue?). It’s probably worth someone’s time for a smuggler or pirate campaign, but at least in the foreseeable future that someone is not me. Common Sense: even if we set aside the fact that the concept of this as an edge makes me want to jump out a window (or crawl out one; I’m writing this in a partially below-ground guest bedroom), the value depends not just on how helpful the GM will be, but on how different that would be from how helpful they usually are. 5bp, 10bp, 20bp, anyone who wants this to be an option will know better than me how much it should cost. Photographic Memory: as written this mostly provides benefits for things that fall below our threshold of abstraction. “Deckers don’t need to use DNI to take notes at the speed of thought” isn’t really Edge material in my book. Connected: the idea is to expand the Contact system, which would make Connected not an Edge but an attribute of the relevant Contact. If you don’t want to wait (reasonable, given that it’s been pending for more than a decade now) I might recommend 12bp/20bp? That does kind of squeeze Riggers until the pips squeak, though. 10/16? Extra Contact: the only purpose for this is buying Contacts without using Resources. Since Contacts come out of kp now, there’s no point. Make it 1kp (the cost of an L1 Contact) if you really want to list it as an Edge for some reason. Friends Abroad, Friends in High Places: neither of these are defined well enough to be usable. They may make an appearance someday after being totally rewritten. Good Reputation: extremely powerful, but also obnoxiously necessary for many social tests. Maybe 10bp/20bp? Astral Chameleon: I was hoping to make some expanded astral forensics rules before evaluating this. Maybe 8kp, as an initial ballpark? Magic Resistance: awkward combination of edge and flaw that I punted on. I’m going to punt again at the moment, but whatever the cost it should scale supralinearly, since the “never willing subject” drawback kicks in at L1. Spirit Affinity: this simply needs better definition to be costable. Codeslinger: having consolidated the system operations quite a bit the value of the edge has gone up, but I can’t say it really calls out to me as an edge. Will need consideration. Natural Hardening: given how hard cybercombat is discouraged hardening doesn’t seem that great, and it also means I don’t have a feeling for the magnitude of the impact, so I punted. Daredevil: this makes me cry. Pirate Family: sobbing intensifies GLaKI: bovine deorbit initiated. Flaws: Incompetence: this always struck me as properly being attached to a skill rather than an independent edge—my thought was that in exchange for being bad at it (+1 TN) a character could gain cheaper access to the skill (sub-1 multiplier? Price as if one level lower, so an Incompetent Skill 6 costs 21 Karma instead of 30?). This also addresses the “gain discretionary build points by taking Incompetent (Suborbital Piloting)” exploit. Allergy: this just generally needs more guidelines and rules. Even using standard “good roleplaying” approaches can backfire—one of the cheesiest allergies I ever took was to Shellfish, which sounded totally reasonable until we were well into the game. Bio-Rejection: a classic “this is almost worthwhile for one group of people (Awakened), let’s add a separate cost tier to make sure it isn’t” moment. Honestly, for a Mundane this should probably be valued at -100kp or something ridiculous like that. Maybe -25kp for everyone with the understanding that no mundane in his or her right mind will ever take it? Blind: see above. Needs more analysis of the workarounds; I’m also concerned that the Awakened will end up with much more access to non-guaranteed-crippling high-value flaws. Color Blind, Deaf: both involve digging beneath the usual level of abstraction for SR. It might be doable but low-hanging fruit these are not. Infirm: this needs some seriously nonlinear costs, and is balanced on a knife-edge betwixt “crippling” and “cost-free”. Not low-hanging. Low Pain Tolerance: I remember now why everyone took all the munchable edges—the ones that actually had an impact were so monstrous in their effects and so paltry in their rewards that there wasn’t really another choice. I think this needs a new mechanic entirely; -50kp might be a fair price for this as written. Night Blindness: maybe -5kp? It’s fairly easy to counteract but nasty when not counteracted. Paraplegic/Quadriplegic: Paraplegic Deckers can be viable if the rest of the team is set up to jump air gaps for them, but that’s a really narrow niche—you commit to doing absolutely everything separately from the rest of the team, give or take. Mages might have been viable back when Grounding existed, and someone really dedicated could maybe make it work with Levitating everywhere, but it isn’t really a non-gimmick option. Riggers, meanwhile, lose half their Combat Pool and most of the other benefits their required high Quickness gives them. Quadriplegic just amps this up and combines it with a 500¥ per day (15,000¥/month without any of the benefits of High lifestyle) Lifestyle requirement. These flaws will need to be destroyed in order to save them. Amnesia: I think the way to go is to give Amnesia-2 a modest value (-10kp?), and then rather than explicit levels the player turns over a chunk of their starting kp to the GM who then makes part of a character out of it, maybe increasing the amount by 20% or so. This makes a full GM-makes-the-whole-character Amnesia-5 Flaw worth roughly 435*0.2=-87bp, but given the degree of control given up that seems reasonable. Combat Monster: maybe 4-6kp? Compulsive: this definitely needs firmer guidance. Flashbacks: again, a flaw with essentially no middle ground between “crippling” and “free points” (1d6 minutes of catatonia is character-ending if it happens mid-run, let alone mid-combat). Probably needs a dramatic expansion and maybe a prodromal period when a character can recognize an oncoming attack and spend a few combat turns finding safety. Impulsive: this feels like “total party wipe: the flaw”, but maybe -10kp if the GM goes easy on it? Illiterate: most of the actual mechanics rely on training rules that I’m not much of a fan of. I’ll have to consider this further. Pacifist: maybe around -10kp? Phobia: see Allergy—the consequences are too severe to encounter regularly, but not sufficient if encountering rarely. Also, uncommon versus common is extremely poorly defined. Sea Legs: maybe -20kp? This is silly, but also potentially crippling. I’ll have to double-check expected time between failures for high-Willpower characters. Sea Madness: once again, a flaw that will either destroy the party or give someone some free points. Simsense Vertigo: another flaw tailor-made for the Awakened. Maybe -6kp and just accepting that there’s no value high enough for a Mundane to take this? Total Pacifist: -20kp? -25kp? Uneducated: like Illiterate, this depends largely on the training rules. Will ponder. Vindictive: needs more guidance. Maybe -10kp as is? Bad Reputation: seriously crippling. -5/-10/-20/-40kp? -10/-15/-20/-22kp to reflect that you’ve just given up on social skills? Braggart: 4kp? More? I suppose it depends on whether the character just tells tall tales or whether they start spilling beans that could identify them and tie them to particular runs. Dark Secret: in desperate need of more guidance. Besides, these are Shadowrunners—what kind of terrible crime are we really expecting is going to shock teammates, contacts, and Johnsons? Day Job: have I mentioned that I hate half-flaw-half-edges? There needs to be a flexibility axis, not just a time axis (can you go Shadowrunning for 6 days and then put in a 20-hour shift to fulfill a 20hr/week requirement? The value of the flaw should depend on the answer!), and I really think making this bite requires those detailed time rules I was working on ten years ago. Elf Poser: -2kp? -3kp? Extra Enemy: that would require using the Enemy rules, which would need to be totally rewritten to be acceptable. Hung Out to Dry: either the flaw is crippling or the character accepts that they need to go through the team for absolutely everything. There are several flaws (and edges) that are more “campaign hook” than “flaw” but this takes the cake. I have no idea what to do with it. Liar: as written, this is a low-reward delayed Hung Out to Dry. Even if we salvage that one I think this is a lost cause. Uncouth: this is Bad Reputation 2 given its own extra name and entry. Spirit Bane: see Spirit Affinity. Maybe -10? Scorched: this is FASA getting lazy. Needs real rules. Bad Karma, Cursed Karma: these represent bets that a campaign won’t last long. Gremlins: needs more thought. Hunted: needs revised Enemy rules. Mysterious Cyberware: needs real rules and some player control or at least warning about what the ’ware might get replaced with, lest someone’s Face be given Bad Reputation by a careless GM. Police Record: needs a total rewrite with actual non-crippling rules and consequences. Will review my Lone Star Sourcebook. And this is taking longer than expected, so I’ll call it there for now. Edit: finished off the rest. ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 16 2023, 09:52 PM Post #70
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Looking at Otaku again, if we assume that we convert the RML shifts to standard racial boni we get a 1/1/1/8/8/8 Human Otaku with Computer 8, Electronics 6, Electronics B/R 6, and Etiquette 4 for 403+52+302+14=246kp. If we ditch the free Channel Points then that gives a cost for the standard 6/5/4/3/3 loadout of 30+21+14+8*2=81, for 327/425 kp spent. I think that would make ~75kp a reasonable cost for being an Otaku? That gives 402/425 which is enough for a utility skill or two or enough for any metatype other than Troll, with some wiggle room. This sounds plausible, any opinions? ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 18 2023, 04:30 AM Post #71
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	So for some reason after more than ten years I finally thought about the fact that I took 425 Karma from BeCKS, but they didn’t pull that number out of a hat, they chose it because it was the average of the cost of the SR3 Archetypes. I’m not sure that’s a good thing to base it on, but it’s certainly worth investigating how much karma they’re worth under S3CKS. THE ADEPT (75kp) RACE (E): Human (0BP) ATTRIBUTES (A) B Q S C I W E M R 5 6 6 (7) 3 6 4 6 6 6 (8) (176kp) ACTIVE SKILLS © (161kp) Athletics 6 (21+12=33) Clubs (Rattan Sticks) 5 (7) (21+3+3=27) Etiquette 3 (8) Stealth 6 (30) Throwing Weapons 6 (30) Unarmed Combat 6 (7) (33) KNOWLEDGE SKILLS Chinese 4 Read/Write 2 English 5 Read/Write 2 Filipino 4 Read/Write 2 Legendary Martial Artists 3 Magic Background 4 Medicine 4 Meditation 4 Philosophy 4 Professional Bodyguarding 4 Sculpture 3 RESOURCES (D): 20,000¥ (17kp) That’s 429kp before Knowledge Skills. ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 18 2023, 04:47 AM Post #72
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	COMBAT DECKER RACE (D): Ork (15kp) ATTRIBUTES © B Q S C I W E M R 6 4 5 (7) 2 5 5 1.54 0 4 (6) (10+18+10+6+36+28=108) ACTIVE SKILLS (B) (14*5+79=149) Bike 4 (1+3+4+6=14) Computer 6 (21+12=33) Computer B/R 4 (14) Cyber-Implant Combat (Spur) 4 (6) (14+2+3=19) Electronics B/R 4 (14) Etiquette (Matrix) 1 (3) (3) Pistols 5 (14+10=24) Stealth 4 (14) Unarmed Combat 4 (14) KNOWLEDGE SKILLS Data Havens 5 English (Decker Lingo) 3 (5) Read/Write 2 (NA) Jackpoint Locations 4 Japanese 3 Read/Write 1 Matrix Gangs 4 Seattle Corporate Hosts 4 Seedy Ork Bars 4 20th Century Comic Books 4 RESOURCES (A): 1,000,000¥ (100) For 372 (???) kp. I don’t know if that’s really the total or if I’m tired enough to have screwed this up, so I’ll call it a night and look again in the morning. Edit: looks like I made a minor error, off by 8kp on the attributes. ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 18 2023, 09:02 PM Post #73
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Combat Mage (75kp) RACE ©: Troll (35kp) ATTRIBUTES (B) B Q S C I W E M R 6 (7) 5 6 4 4 6 6 6 4 (0 + 36 + 4 + 30 + 30 + 40 = 140kp) ACTIVE SKILLS (E) 109kp Conjuring 6 (30) Etiquette (Street) 2 (4) (4+3=7) Intimidation 4 (14) Edged Weapons (Sword) 4 (6) (14 + 5 = 19) Sorcery (Spellcasting) 5 (7) (21 + 3 + 7 = 31) Submachine Gun 3 (8) KNOWLEDGE SKILLS Chinese (Triad) 1 (3) English (Cityspeak) 3 (5) Read/Write 1 (NA) Gang Identification 4 Magic Background 4 Paranormal Animals (Urban) 1 (3) Redmond Barrens 4 Seattle Ork Underground 4 Triad Politics 2 SPELLS Heal 4 Increase Reaction 3 Lightning Bolt 4 Manaball (E) 5 Mana Bolt 4 Powerball (E) 5 Stunbolt 4 I’m going to assume both those Exclusive spells are for Drain, not Cost, so that’s 4+3+4+5+4+5+4=29kp. RESOURCES (D): 20,000¥ (17kp) For 405kp. ~J

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jul 18 2023, 09:26 PM Post #74
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,009 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	COVERT OPS SPECIALIST RACE ©: Elf (20kp) ATTRIBUTES (D) B Q S C I W E M R 3 5 3 6 4 3 3.22 0 4 (10+18+10+18+18+10=84kp) ACTIVE SKILLS (A) (152kp) Athletics 6 (8+20=28) Clubs (Stun Baton) 3 (5) (8+9=17) Computers 4 (14) Electronics (Maglock Systems) 3 (5) (8+2+5=15) Etiquette (Corporate) 5 (7) Negotiations (Fast Talking) 5 (7) Pistols 4 (14) Stealth 6 (21+12+33) Unarmed Combat (Kick Attacks) 3 (5) (17) KNOWLEDGE SKILLS Corporate Finances 4 Corporate Politics 4 Elven Wines 1 English 4 Read/Write 2 Japanese Culture 4 Japanese 4 Read/Write 2 Modern Jazz 1 Psychology 4 RESOURCES (B): 400,000¥ (66kp) For 322kp (!!!!!). Considering the huge amount of buying over the linked attribute I’m surprised at how cheap she comes in at. The power of staying well clear of RML, I suppose. ~J

Tiralee View Member Profile	Jul 27 2023, 11:53 AM Post #75
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 917 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585	Just posting to congratulate Kagetenshi on their Thread Necromancy skills, and be in awe of the dogged way in which they're still making headway on a system used 3 editions ago. It's still superior though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Many thanks Kagetenshi - you're doing great work. Regards, Tir.

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