Half a million Americans supported by the South Vietnamese killed 3 million Vietnamese, on both sides of the conflict, and yet still couldn't beat an enemy with better familiarity with the environment and better intelligence.

Way to support your argument.


The game as presented is largely about small groups of criminals that slip through the cracks in society despite those larger groups that pay them to do jobs for them. The Yakuza is only one such larger group. The runners are the more capable group, otherwise, the Yakuza won't be using them in the first place.

In some games, that may not be the case. PCs might be errand boys and lapdogs, and bend over everytime those larger groups look at them dirty. Those games are perfectly fine. They are just not the same games you play.

that isn't even close to being true. depending on who you believe, the NVA at its height consisted of between 300k to 600k soldiers. that doesn't count the large number of South Vietnamese effectives who were forced to fight for the NVA. by contrast, the total number of US troops topped out at less than 540k.


the US wasn't the scrappy underdog, but they were fighting a large, smart, aggressive force that had a huge advantage in intel and control of the population. according to you, the runners have a nigh-infinite supply of drones and explosives. international contacts? the NVA had the USSR and China; the US wasn't even allowed to enter Cambodia. the US did exactly what you're talking about the PCs doing: they walked in thinking they were hot shit because they had the hardware and the training, and the NVA tore them apart by concealing their assets and playing dirty. no, it's not a perfect analogy, but it's hardly the showcase for your argument that you're trying to make it out to be.


you're only counting regulars. the US basically has to keep its guns trained on the entire population of anyplace they walk into, because anybody they see might be a terrarist--or might have been coerced into working with them. same situation the PCs face, except the US forces aren't nearly as badly outnumbered by their potential enemies. again, not a perfect analogy--but i'm not the one that brought it up.


i've never denied that. what i've denied is that the PCs will be able to easily and/or consistently find these high-value targets, and that they'll be able to easily and/or consistently destroy enough of those targets to matter before sustaining crippling losses themselves.

I'd like to see more an analysis of likely PC plans of attack vs what the Yakuza are probably able to toss in to stop it, and less innane and frankly bizzaro argument over whether or not it's legal for the Yaks to have at least on dude with a logic higher than three on their team.

On the note of Payback: Porter survived the movie partly because the other guys (the 'syndicate' or Yaks in our equation) never really tried to kill him the moment he showed his face... that did happen at the end, and he mostly lost but for plot induced stupidity (you know, not leaving a guy watching the car with him in the trunk... mob bosses going personally in a single group to check out his doss... that they had already planted a bomb in...) rather than sending a flunky while they still had him tied up and tortured.

Hardly total war.

Consider the more recent move: War, where only the actions of a double agent even allow the triads and yaks to really start fighting! Jet Li has to point the Traids at the Yaks every time. That's another syndicate, whats a group of PC's gonna know that a Traid operation isn't?

Hopefully someone else has posted since my last but:

Consider the stated idea of attacking the Oyabun's house. Sounds like a plan, and a good climactic 'go for the kill shot' sort of move.

Now we have to consider the Oyabun: Is he paranoid? Is he Arrogant? How seriously is he taking this 'war' thing?

If he's arrogant and considers the PC's a nuisance, then sure, his home is a good target. If he is paranoid or considers them a threat, he might not even be there.

Either way the team should have some very real problems. They ain't Yak insiders, and lacked good Yak contacts. How are they going to find it? Ditto the boss's office/place of business. Consider, say, Eastern Promises... you might not even know the guy you are talking to IS the boss, unless you are 'in the know'.

Now: Shadowrunners are, in a sense, criminals and thus can be 'in the know', unlike the average housewife, say. But some of that will depend on their contacts, some will be part of their 'native culture'... what crime syndicate ran the neighborhoods they grew up with might be a better way of putting it.

I'm guessing these guys got little to no ties to the Yak prior to this.


Since I'm on a movie kick, Things to do in Denver when You're Dead is a great example flick, only the PC"s are all like the crazy dude holed up ready to fight his way out. The bad guys send a bad ass assasin after the team. So what if he dies, another one will be in town the very next day.


But back to the Oyabun assault for the moment. This guy lives, most likely, in the AAA zones, the rich and well protected neighborhoods. Just getting to his house to assault it is gonna be problematic, never mind the recon. His best and most loyal men will be on hand to defend the place, never mind the MCT rentacops (since MCT does back him...) and then the Lonestar HRT teams that are certain to show up within minutes of a dustup in their most valuable customer's area. I'm not sayin' hes impossible to get to, only that it should be either an epic dustup or the most awesome infiltration ever pulled to do it quiet. And no matter what the action will NEVER start at the property line... it starts at the entrace to the entire neighborhood.

Forget drone suicide attacks. Not only is the building hardened against those sorts of anonymous attacks but even then you'll just blow up a room or two, and we're talking mansion/fortress here. Sure, a bulldog bomb will work... against the front half anyway, but you'll miss the target in all probability, even if you can get the bomb close enough. Carbombs have been a fact of life for more than 100 years at this point. Dronebombs are probably pushing 15-20...

Given the damage done by the PC's, however? He ain't home. Oh.. it'll LOOK like he's home, they may even think they got him! He's in Japan, or Tahiti, enjoying the vacation and the knowledge that he's untouchable. The Wireless world makes it ever easier to run things remotely. Heck, he may even let the shadows think he bought it in the assault, running things as a kaiser soze for a while and looking indestructable when he finally shows back up.

There should be no doubt that the Oyabun or the higher ups will survive, even if you are going by RAW stats or even stricter still by canon stats only.

Remember all non-Grunts NPCs will have individual Edge. Burn 1 point of Edge and survive.

Isn't the NPC survival rule 'Burn all Edge to survive'?

I kind of agree that the Yakuza, as presented in Shadowrun, are above most PCs in power level and effectiveness. But where the realism argument breaks down, for me, is where it meets the GMs responsibility to throw balanced threats at the players. If the players want to mess around with the big players on their own initiative, by all means drop the hammer down. But in this case, the Yaks were presented as their enemies, and in a manner that left the PCs with little choice other than to respond the way they did. So the GM is obligated to make it a fun fight where the PCs won't feel completely useless. I'm not saying they should "win" - and all they really want is to do a lot of damage as they go out in a blaze of glory, really. But the GM should be thinking less in terms of "How can the Yaks crush the runners?" and more in terms of "What kind of big, slam-bang finale should I have?"

To use a similar example - Harlequin is way, way more powerful than just about any group of PCs. But if you introduce Harlequin by having him beat up the hacker's mom, steal the beer from the street sam's fridge, and generally be an asshat, then you kind of need to set things up so that the PCs have a way of fighting back. Otherwise, you're just being a bully. And the arguments for how "realistic" it would be for Harlequin to completely own the PCs are a moot point.

They updated the FAQ and errata already? I had remembered Synner using the "Burn 1 Edge" rule instead of the "Burn all Edge" rule, hence my post.

I don't think anyone would be debating the issue if it was just 'runs against the Yaks' senario. Just like no one debates that Ares or MCT is a good target for runners to hit in the course of a job.

The problem was when the Runners made it personal in a way that leaves no practical ability for either side to cut their losses and write off the damage done as the cost of doing business. The Runner's tossed down the gauntlet in a way that forces the Yaks to either go all out to kill them as messily and publicly as possible or suffer a terrible indignity ON TOP of losing one of their most valued assets on the street, their reputation.

Not unlike, say, assasinating the families of the CEO and board of directors of a major mega-corp. They COULD let it go, but they won't. They will turn every asset at their disposal, even risking losing it all, for revenge/to get their face back.

Runners vs Yakuza in an average run? Sure, fair and balanced and the players don't feel useless.

Runners vs Entire Yakuza Gumi in a fight to the bitter end? Runners should feel the pressure in ways that make the PLAYERS cry for mercy... in a fun way hopefully.

How a GM handles that is entirely a matter of personal taste and ability.

Heck, if I was GMing that, I'd actually be 'unlazy' enough to work out the logistics of it all, how many Yakuza of each teir were available, what sort of money the Yak had on hand for operation, what the other OC groups would be doing in the meantime (probably little....actually), I'd make sure to have my own solid shadow census and a good idea how many jumps each relevant NPC had to reach Yak ties (six degrees of Seperation with Shitozumi-sama?), thus their likelihood of accidentally or purposefully diming out the runners. Hell, I'd even work out just how much pressure the relevant Gumi could put on independents if necessary.

Standard rules of thumb: if its in the Shadows of the relevant area, the Yak will eventually have contacts there (ork Underground included, there is money to be made there). If the Yaks want to hit an NPC, no matter how hard, unless the PC's intervene that contact/ally/loved one is going down... either dead or buried deep enough to weather the storm, and thus out of touch. Obviously, if a contact is Vory/Mafia/AAA Corp or some such there needs to be consideration taken, but even then...

See, if the Yak DON"T do these things, they die. Period. The runners hurt them badly. Letting it pass unavenged is simply not acceptable. Because if they don't seriously fuck the runners up, then the next guy who thinks he's bad is gonna take a chunk, then their bag men run with the money instead of handing it over, the protection rackets stop running smoothly when the shop keepers think they can fight back. Then the other sharks start taking over businesses wholesale...

Its not like the Gumi can just cash in their chips and retire to the beach somewhere. The Runners might... but thats another topic.

i'm not sure that's wholly true. i agree that striking back was pretty much the only good choice, but i'm not sure that the targets the runners chose (an entire clan, apparently), nor the method they chose (making it as personal and public as possible) was the only choice.

If I was absolutely sure, I would have said so, and not asked a legitimate question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

On the strategic defensive you you can't ever really defeat an opponent who chooses to not give up. By 72 the internal stability of the country was pretty much assured. It took a while to get a successful strategy, but it eventually succeeded once the right guy with the right strategy was put in place. That's why the NVA changed to large scale conventional warfare instead of guerrilla warfare, and why the attack that overran South Vietnam involved more tanks than the Nazi's used to invade Russia. And why the same scale attack, when the US choose to actually fight and provide things like ammunition to the RVN forces, was the so called Easter Offensive and was decisively defeated.

We are beginning the final session of this campaign tomorrow, so, depending on how quickly my players move, either this week or next shall be our last session. I shall, of course, keep you all updated (although I'm thinking of starting another topic, so as not to derail the current derail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) )

Naw, now that this thread is almost five pages long it's due for another derailing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

But is it possible to derail from the derail? I mean, mfb, toturi and the others will probably just completely ignore my post, as it has nothing to do with their debate as it is at present, and thus my update will get buried underneath their intractability.

One never knows where the road untaken would have led.

(Yeah, for some reason I'm feeling extra silly today.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

nonsense! i'd never pass up an opportunity to tell someone else that they're running their game wrong!

Bah.

I'll have a recap up later today; ATM, I have to head across town because the people at FedEx can't find their rears with both hands and a map.

what happened to the update

Alright, sorry for the delay, this has been the week from hell (and all of the profs swear that they actually don't all get together and plot out their exams so they all fall within the same week. we don't believe them.)

Anyway, last week, after decaping the yakuza soldier, burning the body and freezing the head (it's in the cooler, underneath the beer), the TM notices that someone has managed to ping the man's commlink to report its location. They peel on out of there, debating what to do next. The Yaks get to the abandoned playground all of ten minutes later, and, noticing the fresh bloodstains on the ground and the crushed commlink, call in a psychomentry expert.

So, the PCs are driving around Seattle, debating what to do next and what to do with their recording of the leader insulting and decaping the Yak--the vid having been sanitized of most of the major identification details, like the image of their van--when the TMs, who have been monitoring the news- and shadow-feeds, both swear loudly. The prices on their heads have just jumped from 10k dead apiece to 60k dead, 75k alive, with the leader's price being 75k dead, 150k alive. Now kinda going, "Meh. Okay." they spam the vid to every news outlet, blog and trideo hosting site on the matrix.

The bounties jump up another 20-30k apiece five minutes later.


And I'll post more when I get back from my errands later this afternoon. I just looked at the clock and realized what time it is.

Alright, continuing on...

The team now has several points and objectives they need to accomplish at this point:

They need to retrieve the explosives that are stored at U-Storage (thank you, Shadowrun Supp)

They need to gather their allies.

They need to sow some chaos as a cover for their activities.

They need to have an escape plan.

They need to start kicking ass.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Allies are taken care of when, about ten minutes after the video goes live on the Matrix, their semi-psychotic Yakuza-killing contact, Hawk, gives them a call, eyes practically popping out of his head in shock--and not a small amount of envy. Reaper (the team leader) invites him along for the party; Hawk's entire purpose in life has been harming Yakuza in retribution for the slaughter of his old team; Reaper makes the point that he'll never have an opportunity like this ever again. He agrees and gives them an address for his primary safehouse/armory.

On their way to meet up with Hawk, they start making calls.

First on the list are a pair of shadowrunning buddies of theirs, Galen, an elven Dragonslayer shaman, and Sneak, a.k.a. Big Jimmy, a pyromanical and demomanical (is that even a word?) dwarf that is all of 3' 8" tall. They both agree to help, Galen when he is told their target and Sneak when they mention the two metric tons of rating 5 explosives they have.

Then they start calling up their Ork Underground contacts; tonight is the night for Ork solidarity. Get the Ork gangers out, if anyone has a score to settle with the Yakuza, tonight is the night.

Next, they call up Slamm-O! and Netcat; they ask Slamm-O! to do what he does best and drum up some chaos. Slamm-O!, who is on very good terms with the team at this point, and having been asked to do something that he enjoys very much, starts putting out the call to his chummers. Netcat, they ask for help... and don't get any further before she hangs up on them.

Will continue later; phone's ringing.

They are calling their only contacts,.while on the move? On the move they have to be using their commlinks, not hacking into some 3rd party. If one assumes that a large, powerful criminal organization might have contacts with the people who actually run the networks that switch the calls and look up call patterns, this seems rather severely unwise. This ignores that commlinks can be traced in real time to an actual physical location. . . .

Er... I'd always assumed that "calling" was the same as "using the matrix" since "phones" are now commlinks.

Maybe I'm just wild and crazy in assuming the two devices are now one, and operate entirely overt he matrix. And I may also be wild and crazy for assuming without confirmation that shadowrunners always hack in and stealth their presence on the matrix to avoid tripping th inevitable 'user does not have a SIN' alarm.

In order for you to receive a call what has to happen? The network that is supposed to deliver the call needs to know how to get to you. This means it has to know what the actual path is to deliver it to the wireless device that your comlink is connected to.

In order to keep a call as you drive, as you constantly change the path of you data, what is needed? The network has to know how to get the data to new location, which means exactly what device will be the one that has physical connectivity to you and which one is about to lose connectivity.

When you get a call on a comlink, do you know who is calling? Is it like getting a call before caller ID, where the only way was to answer the the phone and see who was at the other end? Or does it somehow tell the comlink of the person you are calling that this is an important call that you should answer instead of yet another automated spambot trying to sell them something? Given that SR encryption is trivial to break, who else knows about that call and how would you keep them from knowing about it?

It's a dystopia where big brother is, as they point out on page 39, watching you. And when the heavy hitters are breaking out the artillery acting like it's just like all the runs when everyone in the world didn't have a wanted poster with you named and "wanted dead or alive" is unwise.

The GM evidently says it is ok. Big Brother does whatever the GM tells it to do.