OK Everybody, I'm sending the following message to Synner:

Okay. While you're at it, ask him if they can target spells with just a datajack, 'cause it's headware that costs Essence to have implanted, too, and I also don't see that covered in the Q&A anywhere.

Oh, wait! Maybe it's not in the Q&A because it's a question that doesn't need to be asked any where, on account of it making no sense.

A datajack's not a visual modification (just like Ultrasound and Radar aren't). The fact someone's paid Essence for it does not matter. There's plenty of stuff -- anything that's not a cyberoptic modification, for instance -- that you pay Essence for that has nothing at all to do with vision and line of sight. Ultrasound and Radar are augmentations you sense with, but do not see with in the sense of drawing line of sight for magic. I don't understand why the distinction is so apparently lost on you.

Critias, I sent him the frakkin' letter already! Please, don't be an ass about this! If Synner says that a Mage with the Radar Sensor can't target someone then that's it. If he says that they can, then will you acknowledge I'm right?

As for your bulls*** example of using a Datajack to "see"... of course you can't because it doesn't have frakkin' sensors!

Well an occular drone is something with sensors that you paid for with essence. It is discounted though when it leaves your body as its no longer a vision mod (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's because the drone is no longer touching the mage and therefore breaks the Astral connection. I'm thinking if the mage uses an ocular drone and HOLDS in his hand (or has an extra cybereye implanted in his hand), then he can look around a corner and target someone like that.

A Radar Sensor doesn't leave the body, it just sends out photons... like a flashlight, and when those photons bounce back it converts that to an image the mind can comprehend... like how the eye works.

Right -- it creates its own image and shares it with the mage who can see it. It does NOT, though, modify existing visual capabilities. It's not a vision mod, it's just headware that happens to help you know where people are in the dark.

Critias, I sent the letter to Synner, he is The Word © on what is allowed in Shadowrun and what is not. If he says that Radar doesn't help with spell casting, then I will admit that you were right and I was all frakked up. If he says that it does work will you admit I was right?

Oh, and do you acknowledge that the Mark I Eyeball works on reflected photons just like the radar sensor. Do you acknowledge that the reflected light causes electrical signals to travel from the eye through the optic nerver and into the brain. Finally, do you acknowledge that the brain turns these electrical signals into an image by maping out the 3d space being viewed.

If you answer these questions and can refute that they are different from Radar vision (other than the wavelengths of the photons are shorter), then I'll acknowlege that I am an idiot and you were right.

I know you sent the letter. Or, well, I fully believe you when you claim to have done so. I just don't understand why you felt it was necessary to do so.

In much the same way, I'm not sure why you won't (or can't) either acknowledge, or refute, the point that Radar and Ultrasound aren't vision mods. Instead of address the point (any of the times that I've brought it up, or when others did the same) despite us quoting text and page numbers right at you, you say you're asking dad what he thinks (when one would assume that what got written in the rulebook would give you a pretty good idea of the game designer's stance, especially since, as you said, no FAQ or Q&A refutes it).

I felt it was necessary to send the letter because neither you nor I are the final Word when it comes to Shadowrun. Synner and his compatriots are the Final Word. They will be the ones who determine who's reading of the rules is correct. They will be the ones to say: "Critias is correct and Mages can not use Radar sensors to target spells." or they will say "KCKitsune is correct and they can use Radar sensors to target spells." Either way, we will get our answer and will be made better for it.

So, okay. Still no comment on the fact that Radar and Ultrasound clearly aren't listed as vision modifications (augmentations to the sense that's used to determine line of sight). Thanks for the update.

OK Critias, I blew up a few posts back, I'm sorry about that. I will say that in my one post, the exact quote from Augmentation about Radar Sensors was this:



I think that is pretty clearly a vision modification. It REPLACES THE USER'S VISUAL SENSES! How much more clear do you want it to be. Now let Synner get back to us on this.

In my campaign, radar-blocking paint or materials are standard. So, no looking through walls with radar there.

Best reason to say officially that it doesn't -
If they say it does allow casting through walls then progbably a good chunk of GMs will either houserule that it doesn't or houserule out the implant altogether, and players some players would avoid it like the plague because they don't want to feel like a twink (not saying they *would* be twinks or not, just that some players would feel like one).

As to why ultrasound vision gets a penalty, it must be a very odd experience seeing through it. Also you don't get colour vision etc. Also thermo/ultra having penalties in pure dark has the handy advantage of giving you a reason to use a low light torch (flashlight to you in the States)... and hope any opposition have neither low light enhancements themselves or include elves/orks.

Both radar sense and ultrasound produce computer generated composite representations of the feedback from non-visual sensor arrays. These replace/overlay the normal visual sensorium and do not allow/constitute a visual link to target for spellcasting purposes.

The previous post makes my response to your tantrum unnecessary.

But I bet it'd still be fun.

Thanks for finally stomping on this, Synner. I've been really anxious to hear the FINAL WORD for several posts now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sometimes I ground my daughter just because it reminds me of Second Edition. Does that make me a bad person?

Again, there isn't a difference between radar and vision.

If you have low-light cybereyes with low-light eye lights installed, your character essentially sends out a wide beam of polarized photons that are reflected off the object, focused through an optical device such as a mirror or lense, and processed by a camera (grid of sensors) sensitive to the appropriate wavelengths. That camera generates a parallel set of electrical impulses in your optical nerves, and your character "sees" the target.

The default radar implant described in augmentation doesn't work this way -- but there is nothing but engineering difficulties preventing it from doing so. I would strongly suspect that those engineering difficulties would be solved by 2070! Given the huge potential advantage such a system would provide to mages, I can't imagine why it wouldn't have been done.

For game balance purposes, I'm glad it doesn't work, though.

Excuse me Fortune, I was getting mad at Critias for making his snide comment. It's not a "tantrum" when the jerk was prodding me with his comment:



I think that if you were being taunted like that, that you would have responded... especially since if you already posted something that supported your position.


Critias, now that it is official, I was wrong and therefore acknowledge you and the others were correct about Radar sensors.

...aaaghhhh! Gonna get my PE character Umeko out & she's gonna make some heads explode real soon like.

It's over, done, finito, fin, ende... the rotund female has vocalised.

Synner, profuse thanks for finally laying this to rest.

...now on to the original topic (if it's not too late)

Hey, as soon as Synner said it didn't allow spell targeting, I acknowledged Critias was correct and dropped that line of questioning.

As for the original topic, of course it's possible get back to that.

Sorry, no need to make heads explode. It was always my position that it was good for rules balance, after all. I just like the idea that somewhere out there in the shadowrun world (far, far from the hands of the PCs) is a lunatic metamaterials expert with a cyber-mod that makes his head look more like a deep space telescope that can fireball around corners.

As for the original topic, I believe someone mentioned smuggling compartments for hiding focii in. I've always gone with skin pockets instead -- the size is a bit more ambiguous, so GMs are more likely to let your focii fit. Plus, it's easier on the essence. While the cost is higher, it still isn't high.

Daredrenaline is good for just about everyone, though pricy.

Platelet Factories, I'm convinced, are SR4's enhanced articulation. Not too pricey, good for drain and damage alike. Trauma dampers have a similar function, but cost much more. If you can afford it, though, nothing stopping you from having both.

A partial cyberlimb is a great place to put a good deal of swell stuff. Nanite hives are one of those options. Though the attribute enhancing nanites aren't very useful for a mage, everyone can benefit from some of the others. Another is all the general-purpose stuff -- commlinks, radar (even if it doesn't let you cast through schools)

Skillwires are one of those things I always want, but never find room for. For a good chargen-rated system, .6 (or .7 if you want to use edge) is a lot. If you can go deltaware, though, that's different. Skillwires are cheap, and the essence cost of delta wires is much more manageable.

While I like the idea of a synaptic booster getting you some extra IP's without spells around, it's a very pricey bit of gear in both essence and cost. Not something you can realistically get as deltaware without owing some gigantic favors.

Sleep regulators are also good general purpose 'ware, but not as useful for mages since there are spells that can reduce your need for sleep.

Question: If a person has reflex augmentation (Wired Reflexes, Move-by-Wire, or Synaptic booster) does the Increase Reflexes spell work on them (up to the max of 4 IP of course)? If so then having the Synaptic Booster is great for the "Cyber Mage" because he needs less hits to get up to max speed.

Pretty sure Kyoto was talking to Feshy that time, Kitsune. Anyway, I am a big fan of the sleep regulator and reflex boosters, I generally ignore all cyber for mages beyond that and stick to the more expensive but more essense friendly bioware.

Chris