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nathanross
post Mar 15 2008, 04:23 AM
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This was brought up by Boomfist in the Boosted Reflexes thread. It also brought to mind something I have been thinking about almost since the start of SR4: "Are SR4 Initiative passes too cheap?".

In SR3, you were never guaranteed 4 passes. At most, Move-by-Wire 4 + Reaction Enhancers 6 guaranteed you 3 passes (depending on base Quickness and Intelligence), with a high chance of 4 passes. Since Initiative was Reaction + Xd6 (max 4d6), IP max usually stepped up by 6, not 10 as it is in SR4.

Is this too much? I know the new 6 is 4 and the new 3 is 2, but now, the new 3 IP's is 4. Shouldn't we have stepped down in passes, not up?
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Daier Mune
post Mar 15 2008, 05:05 AM
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*shrug* so combat is now over faster with slightly less fumbling with initiatives.

personally, I think the changes to initiative are a good thing. Getting to 4 IPs is a major thing (capable only by very dedicated adepts and mages at chargen), and having 1 IP isn't quite so detrimental (although not reccomended).
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 15 2008, 05:34 AM
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One neat thing is that it's possible for the guy with 1 IP (Reaction 5(7), Intuition 5 and Reflex Boosters 2) to act -- once--before the guy with 3 IPs (Reaction 3(5), Intuition 3 and Wired 2).
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Glyph
post Mar 15 2008, 05:37 AM
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In a way, street sammies have suffered the most from the transition to SR4, because adepts and mages are close to parity with them now. In SR3, sammies could have astronomical Reaction scores that put their initiatives through the roof. Adepts couldn't compete, and mages were even worse off - the increase reflexes spell only gave the extra dice, not the accompanying Reaction bonus, so even at +3, it was still more equivalent to wired reflexes: 2.
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nathanross
post Mar 15 2008, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 15 2008, 01:34 AM) *
One neat thing is that it's possible for the guy with 1 IP (Reaction 5(7), Intuition 5 and Reflex Boosters 2) to act -- once--before the guy with 3 IPs (Reaction 3(5), Intuition 3 and Wired 2).

Yeah, I have noticed this for a while, mainly in the case of mages. Should things be like this? It is just the natural outcome of separating the Initiative score from the number of IPs.

QUOTE (Glyph @ Mar 15 2008, 01:37 AM) *
In a way, street sammies have suffered the most from the transition to SR4, because adepts and mages are close to parity with them now. In SR3, sammies could have astronomical Reaction scores that put their initiatives through the roof. Adepts couldn't compete, and mages were even worse off - the increase reflexes spell only gave the extra dice, not the accompanying Reaction bonus, so even at +3, it was still more equivalent to wired reflexes: 2.

This is also due to the new rules against combining Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes. Also the lack of Boosted Reflexes + Synaptic Accelerator.

And as I was saying before, normally at start, adepts, mages and sammys were limited to 3IPs, and 4 was only really reliable for sammys with Move-by-Wire and Reaction Enhancers (Lots of Reaction Enhancers!). Now Adepts and Mages are the ones who start with 4IPs and the sammys have to save up quite a few grand for it, though they usually act first in the passes they have.
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Critias
post Mar 15 2008, 06:49 AM
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I still say in order for something to be "too powerful" it has to be something not available to everyone, making the entire thing something of a moot discussion.

Yes, obviously going more times in a fight is better than not. Yes, it's something that's been in Shadowrun since day one. No, I don't think it's a problem. Because, yes, everyone has some way to do it (there are enough different ways to get initiative boosts, be they magical, chemical, cybernetic, or biotechnological in nature, that all but the most gimped of character concepts can get extra actions).

It's like saying "hit points are too powerful" when playing D&D, or insisting that "horses make people move too fast" playing a cowboy RPG.
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nathanross
post Mar 15 2008, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 15 2008, 02:49 AM) *
I still say in order for something to be "too powerful" it has to be something not available to everyone, making the entire thing something of a moot discussion.

It's like saying "hit points are too powerful" when playing D&D, or insisting that "horses make people move too fast" playing a cowboy RPG.

The thing is, I'm not comparing Shadowrunners to each other, but to the world around them. Only in very high security, military, or against prime runners should you encounter Initiative Enhancement. This means that the runners with 3 if not 4IPs have a very real advantage over the people they are fighting.

You can't really compare this to D&D, since as you go up in level, the enemies scale to match you. In Shadowrun, unless your GM runs it like D&D, corp sec always gets run over by prime runners. The things you face when starting out will be trampled by you later in your career. If security guards get IP enhancement relative to the PC's, it would be one fucked up world.
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Critias
post Mar 15 2008, 07:38 AM
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If you think everyone working corp security is Deputy Barney Fife, and you think the only folks your "prime runners" are ever going to fight are corporate security, and you think corporate security only travels in pairs, and you think corporations care enough about their employees (rather than their bottom line) to not give those employees combat drug inhalers, you're absolutely correct.
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Fortune
post Mar 15 2008, 07:59 AM
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QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 15 2008, 06:15 PM) *
Only in very high security, military, or against prime runners should you encounter Initiative Enhancement. This means that the runners with 3 if not 4IPs have a very real advantage over the people they are fighting.


I have a problem with this premise. The availability of low level Wired Reflexes and drugs mean that even Joe Security and Gary Ganger can have multiple IPs.
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nathanross
post Mar 15 2008, 08:07 AM
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I'm not saying that shadowrunners will only ever run up against meat targets, I'm saying that most of the people in the Sixth World are meat targets to the shadowrunners. Sure, you will accept runs that involve harder targets and more security, but still, you advance faster than the targets you are going against. This is natural since not everyone is as focused and determined as the shadowrunners.

The reason (if you can look further than the GMs twisted mind) you end up taking harder runs is due to the money you can get out of it. There are only a certain number of easy data steals of low level extractions that can be done before the market lowers in value. You need to move up with your skills/abilities to keep getting work, and this is the reason for the power creep.

Sure, in the end it boils down to killing the GM's dudes, but I'd like to think there is more to it than that. I'd also like to think that every now and then we get to totally chump some squishy security guard.
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Critias
post Mar 15 2008, 08:37 AM
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Most of the people in the Fifth World are "meat targets" to the animalistic professional criminals that commit murder and robbery nowadays. I don't see it as a problem that the divide is exacerbated by the introduction of combat-oriented drugs, spells, and cybernetic enhancements in the Sixth World. In the same way that your average citizen is content to baah with the herd and trust in cops to protect them nowadays (and as such neglects to train, stay fit, or equip themselves towards self-defense), the same thing will happen in Shadowrun's dystopic future (where in addition to fitness, training, and weapons, criminals will have magical or technological enhancements on their side, as well).

I guess I'm just not seeing the problem/issue. Shouldn't people dedicated to combat (Shadowrunners, soldiers, psychopathic gangbangers, corporate security) outclass your everyday schmuck at...y'know...combat?
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Fortune
post Mar 15 2008, 08:40 AM
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I'm not quite sure what you (nathanross) are complaining (debating (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ) about.

It seems that all three of us are saying that the relative availability of the IP-increasing 'ware and drugs means that some opponents will have multiple IPs. Not all, or most, or even none, but some. That seems appropriate to me, and is how I run things in my games.
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Seven-7
post Mar 15 2008, 09:01 AM
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QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 14 2008, 11:23 PM) *
This was brought up by Boomfist in the Boosted Reflexes thread. It also brought to mind something I have been thinking about almost since the start of SR4: "Are SR4 Initiative passes too cheap?".

In SR3, you were never guaranteed 4 passes. At most, Move-by-Wire 4 + Reaction Enhancers 6 guaranteed you 3 passes (depending on base Quickness and Intelligence), with a high chance of 4 passes. Since Initiative was Reaction + Xd6 (max 4d6), IP max usually stepped up by 6, not 10 as it is in SR4.

Is this too much? I know the new 6 is 4 and the new 3 is 2, but now, the new 3 IP's is 4. Shouldn't we have stepped down in passes, not up?



Are you kidding? SR3 allows easily for 3-4 passes average (Init scores of 33 and so) for streetsams, and mages if you were careful about wards.
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Velocity219e
post Mar 15 2008, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Mar 15 2008, 07:59 AM) *
I have a problem with this premise. The availability of low level Wired Reflexes and drugs mean that even Joe Security and Gary Ganger can have multiple IPs.


and I have a problem with the idea that your bottom of the rung security guards would be okay with replacing vast chunks of meat and throwing down huge heaps of nuyen for reaction enhancements so they can get into gunfights better to defend their minimum wage job where their employers won't even double up guards, supply decent weapons and armour or guarantee instant HTR when they have anything resembling an important target.

You'll find frequently in my games that bog standard grunt guards in anything but secure / high end facilities will try and roll over and survive when a six man runner team bristling with guns augs and magic drops silently through a ceiling vent with silenced weapons, I mean seriously whats a couple of meatbags with pistols versus a decent runner team? a speedbump at best, you and I know that, and they sure as shit do too.

all my guards will try and do is find an advantage or notify people further in so they have a chance at getting organised
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suppenhuhn
post Mar 15 2008, 09:38 AM
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For me ini enhancers in sr have always been a bit of a nobrainer, but in the 4th ed unaugmented people now have a chance to act before enhanced persons. That i really like about the new edition. Also if you consider not running around with active boosters all the time (mebbe due to it not looking very natural) they might not even be helpfull in every situation.
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Critias
post Mar 15 2008, 09:40 AM
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QUOTE (Velocity219e @ Mar 15 2008, 05:30 AM) *
and I have a problem with the idea that your bottom of the rung security guards would be okay with replacing vast chunks of meat and throwing down huge heaps of nuyen for reaction enhancements so they can get into gunfights better to defend their minimum wage job where their employers won't even double up guards, supply decent weapons and armour or guarantee instant HTR when they have anything resembling an important target.

You'll find frequently in my games that bog standard grunt guards in anything but secure / high end facilities will try and roll over and survive when a six man runner team bristling with guns augs and magic drops silently through a ceiling vent with silenced weapons, I mean seriously whats a couple of meatbags with pistols versus a decent runner team? a speedbump at best, you and I know that, and they sure as shit do too.

all my guards will try and do is find an advantage or notify people further in so they have a chance at getting organised

It sounds to me like you're confusing AAA corporate security with the rent-a-cops you see at your local mall. What makes you think they've got "minimum wage jobs where their employes won't even double up guards, supply decent weapons and armour, or guarantee instant HTR?" What kind of shitty facilities do your Shadowrunners get paid to pull jobs on?
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nathanross
post Mar 15 2008, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE (Seven-7 @ Mar 15 2008, 04:01 AM) *
Are you kidding? SR3 allows easily for 3-4 passes average (Init scores of 33 and so) for streetsams, and mages if you were careful about wards.

I wouldn't say easily, but yeah, it is by no means rare. Normally, any good Street Sam has reaction in the mid teens and +3d6 initiative. This means 2 passes guaranteed, 3 passes normally, and 4 occasionally. Of course this is true, but you could still end up with only 2 passes. Nothing was ever guaranteed. You might say it's just nostalgia for the old days and you may be right, however, I think the stepping in SR4 is a bit too much. Also, Move-by-Wire has totally lost it's "Satan's fruit" appeal.
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vladski
post Mar 15 2008, 12:58 PM
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Finally! Someone is talking about Initiative! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As I have stated before in relative threads, I think Initiative Passes in SR4 are too pre-ordained.

In SR3, no matter how much "initiative" a player had, there was always a chance that they would be slow... or at least slower. Several Wired 3 characters had guaranteed 2nd passes (barring injury) in my SR3 game, but they still might be slower sometimes than many Wired 1 characters due to the roll of the dice. On average they would be going "first" but not always. And they never knew for sure how many passes they were gonna get (often 2, sometimes 3) until those dice were rolled. It was possible to build a non-wired character and actually get a second pass on a good roll. Those players were always excited when this happened.

With 4th Edition, passes are automatic for the most part. No matter how lousy you roll Init, you are gonna have that many passes. It has made the value of Init passes jsut sky rocket, with the unwired (or unmagicked) characters sucking hind tit every single turn. Maybe the designers actually intended to make assorted improved reflex type stuff that much more potent, but to me it has lost some of the ... zing. It's too predictable.

I jsut preferred the ...more randomness of the old initiative. And the fact that while it was more "likely" that you would get more passes, it really wasn't written in stone how many you had. Or how many that little shrimp you were planning on beating up had. You still always knew 9 times out of ten who was the bad ass. But there was always that "occasion."

So, I created this solution to my perceived problem:

Roll your Initiative as normal: Roll X Init dice and add the successes to your Init score. This is your actual Initiative.

Then compare the number of hits you had on the roll to the below chart to determine Passes:

* 2 hits , you get your 2nd pass (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for it)

* 3 hits, you get your 3rd and 4th (if you have the appropriate gear/spells for them)

and then to jsut shake things up and make it fun:

* 4+ hits on your test, you gain a second pass (if you are unwired/unspelled.)



A non-wired guy is probably tossing around 6-7 dice on average for Init, so 4+ hits won't come up that often, but when it does, it will give them that nice lucky shot. And he is still only picking up a second pass occasionally.

A wired guy is probably tossing around 8-11 dice, so he is more than likely to always make his threshold for his multiple passes... but sometimes not. A little give in the system. A little "let's see how the dice play out."

Things to consider:
There are no additional dice rolls and it's really not hard at all to count your hits and figure out your number of passes, so, it doesn't slow the game down any.

It doesn't substitute a system for the game, only adds to it. So, major game balance isn't thrown off.

Anyway, I started using this with my players as a test and all of them decided that they liked the feel of it better, as well. And this was my issue! None of my players had ever actually complained about it. But, they thought the new way was more realistic, even tho' it actually can penalize the characters with any form of boosting... occasionally.

Vlad
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suppenhuhn
post Mar 15 2008, 01:25 PM
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sounds really nice, have to try that rule myself sometime (soon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )
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imperialus
post Mar 15 2008, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Velocity219e @ Mar 15 2008, 02:30 AM) *
and I have a problem with the idea that your bottom of the rung security guards would be okay with replacing vast chunks of meat and throwing down huge heaps of nuyen for reaction enhancements so they can get into gunfights better to defend their minimum wage job where their employers won't even double up guards, supply decent weapons and armour or guarantee instant HTR when they have anything resembling an important target.

You'll find frequently in my games that bog standard grunt guards in anything but secure / high end facilities will try and roll over and survive when a six man runner team bristling with guns augs and magic drops silently through a ceiling vent with silenced weapons, I mean seriously whats a couple of meatbags with pistols versus a decent runner team? a speedbump at best, you and I know that, and they sure as shit do too.

all my guards will try and do is find an advantage or notify people further in so they have a chance at getting organised


Well Wired I is 11000 Nuyen on the street. Used, maybe seven grand, it's probably safe to assume that a licenced company buying in bulk could get new ware for the used price. Costs 2 essence... I could see this being offered by most decent security companies and any company that has the budget for an internal security force as part of a benefits package or signing bonus. Sign a contract for X number of years and they'll implant it for you. Or you could take that 5 grand up front, but then it's your ass.

Recovery from something as well established as Wired Reflexes is probably fairly short especially with advances in NanoTechnology and the like. It would take a while to get familiar with your new reflexes but it's also possible that the ware would activate in stages letting your body slowly become accustomed to the feeling.

Basically, take a goon with Wired I give him a Preadator IV with a smartlink run through his glasses, and an armoured jacket. Most runners will still run over him in a round or two, but he'll likely slow them down enough so that the tac team shows up as they're leaving which is when it gets hairy. The key is to play them as if they are fighting to stay alive, not kill. Have them retreat, using their knowlege of the facility to evade the team, while small groups come out to fire off a few rounds before running away, but for the most part they'll hide as best they can, feeding reports to HQ and if the team wastes time tracking them down and killing them all they'll never reach their objective.

That's how I deal with security when it comes to direct physical confrontation at any rate.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Mar 15 2008, 05:01 PM
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I've felt since 3rd that they were too weak..

I liked running 60kph, I liked going 3 times before the mage went once. Bah, there too weak in SR4 now then your movement is over a combat turn and everyone goes on the 1st pass.
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Daier Mune
post Mar 15 2008, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 15 2008, 01:38 AM) *
This is also due to the new rules against combining Reaction Enhancers and Wired Reflexes. Also the lack of Boosted Reflexes + Synaptic Accelerator.


wait, where does it say that they can't be combined?
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imperialus
post Mar 15 2008, 06:32 PM
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One other thing that I think we might be overlooking is the motivation of a grunt sec guard in a crappy section of town to scrimp and save and buy his own ware. Sure, the smiling face at the reception desk downtown might not need or want much ware but the guy sitting in the booth out in Tacoma by himself is going to know that it's probably worth it for him to eat nothing but soy so he can save up and buy that muscle augmentation or wired reflexes. Sure the job might pay crap, but it is a job and if he doesn't at least try and chrome himself up as much as possible he's going to end up face down over his desk with two holes in his head.
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Glyph
post Mar 15 2008, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Daier Mune @ Mar 15 2008, 10:52 AM) *
wait, where does it say that they can't be combined?


When it says that they "cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement except for reaction enhancers." (pg. 41). Also, what made Move-by-Wire so scary is SR3 was that it gave you extra actions as well as a mere initiative boost. And it had some pronounced negatives, as well.

In SR4, it is still a very good piece of 'ware. It costs the same, Essense-wise, as wired reflexes, but gives a higher Reaction boost, a bonus to the Dodge skill, and gives you free skillwires. All of the extra goodies mean that synaptic boosters actually have some competition - while wired reflexes are the pennypincher's choice, something you have until you can afford to upgrade to MBW.
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Stahlseele
post Mar 15 2008, 06:50 PM
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i think because of the huge squabble about that very issue in SR3 (where they just did not write that synaptic and boosted are incompatible)they made it a point to explicitly write it in this time around
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