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Rasumichin
post Mar 19 2008, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 19 2008, 03:33 PM) *
It's just that the toy is way cheaper than the software...


They're the new survival knifes!
Only with no-brainer stuff inside instead of trauma patches.

I'll most likely houserule them to aid judge intentions tests only, as has been suggested here.
Makes them less of a must-have, but still leaves use for them.
Social skill monkeys should have their toys, too.
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 19 2008, 09:33 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 19 2008, 02:34 PM) *
As a hacker, I find them to be the best toy on the market. Once you equip one with a higher signal, a Retrans Unit, and Gecko Tips, you have a common market toy that can climb into places. Once there I can bounce signals off of it to hack short range stuff. I need to up his pilot though so that I can get the rating 6 ECCM to help me get past those wi-fi inhibiting areas. And a little packet of C12 to blow him up if he ever gets caught. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


That reminds me, I was going to post something about doing that with a drone -- like a fly-spy or some little crawler type thing, dropping off a retransmitter and then dragging a fiberoptic cable through the ductwork in order to h4xx0r the boxen in the "wifi-proof" "secure" area. Don't see why you couldn't do that.
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Larme
post Mar 19 2008, 09:40 PM
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I think empathy software is totally stupid. It provides a flat, stacking bonus to social skills, one of the easiest dice pools to get really high. Now, if it could only be used by mundanes, you could say "hey, cool, bringing mundane faces more in line with magical ones so that pornomancers aren't the only viable option." Except that pornomasters can (and should, if they're smart) use technology. Empathy software boosts an adept's max dice pool from like 22 to 28. Why? WHY?

But I think emotitoys are totally cool. I like the idea of them, and they could really enhance a character's feel. They're like a familiar for mundanes, which don't require something only a mage could do like using attunement metamagic on a critter or getting an ally spirit to possess an animal as their pet.

I like the OP's balancing of empathy software; ofsetting negative modifiers is very imporant in social situations, and that could let empathy software provide a great bonus without granting a flat 6 dice increase to pools that are often bloated to begin with.
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WearzManySkins
post Mar 19 2008, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 19 2008, 02:34 PM) *
As a hacker, I find them to be the best toy on the market. Once you equip one with a higher signal, a Retrans Unit, and Gecko Tips, you have a common market toy that can climb into places. Once there I can bounce signals off of it to hack short range stuff. I need to up his pilot though so that I can get the rating 6 ECCM to help me get past those wi-fi inhibiting areas. And a little packet of C12 to blow him up if he ever gets caught. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


ECCM will not help against a Faraday Cage or Wi Fi inhibiting paint. Also a ECCM takes up one slot, microdrones are not flush with loads of extra slots.

As for explosives charge to destruct a drone, go back an look at the drone/vehicle damage rules and the explosives rules.

Unlike what is seen in the movies, air condition ducts are not the sneak thief's superhighway. In SR4 all kinds of sensors will be in those ducts, thermographic, atmospheric etc. Then the fans and the filters will be obstacles to drones or persons snaking there way thru the ducts.

WMS
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Nightwalker450
post Mar 19 2008, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 19 2008, 04:53 PM) *
ECCM will not help against a Faraday Cage or Wi Fi inhibiting paint. Also a ECCM takes up one slot, microdrones are not flush with loads of extra slots.


ECCM takes up no slots, it is software, it is used to oppose jamming. Which I think the Faraday Cage and WiFi inhibiting paint are forms of (at least I'm relatively certain). ECM is a vehicle mod, which is itself a jammer, I think this is what you were thinking.

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 19 2008, 04:53 PM) *
As for explosives charge to destruct a drone, go back an look at the drone/vehicle damage rules and the explosives rules.


I can't remember which ones they are, but there are modifications to keep your vehicle safe. They start with lockdown, then there's gassing the occupants, then blowing up the vehicle. Since its a microdrone, we're going to rule them in reverse, so we put a small charge in it to dismantle the drone and cause minimal area damage. Probably only 1 or 2P to anyone directly near it.

QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 19 2008, 04:53 PM) *
Unlike what is seen in the movies, air condition ducts are not the sneak thief's superhighway. In SR4 all kinds of sensors will be in those ducts, thermographic, atmospheric etc. Then the fans and the filters will be obstacles to drones or persons snaking there way thru the ducts.


Whoever said air condition ducts? This little thing can cling to the back of another runner (my favorite form of transportation), be smuggled in a package, cling to the bottom of vehicles, scale apartment buildings (higher security this doesn't work as well). And if people ever come, he can just hide behind a trash can, or under a desk. Or in an office already cluttered with knick-knacks and party favors, he can just set on the shelf. Loads of fun, and not just for kids (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 19 2008, 10:04 PM
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Well yeah, the ducts are more like the sneak thief's dungeon crawl (emphasis on crawl). Spoofing/disabling those sensors should be challenging, though not impossible unless you (as GM) want it to be. Threading a fiberoptic cable, I mean, who would suspect that? If they think you're technical, go crude (of course you have to be very technical to go crude).
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 19 2008, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Mar 19 2008, 06:04 PM) *
ECCM takes up no slots, it is software, it is used to oppose jamming. Which I think the Faraday Cage and WiFi inhibiting paint are forms of (at least I'm relatively certain). ECM is a vehicle mod, which is itself a jammer, I think this is what you were thinking.


A Faraday cage is a solid or mesh enclosure of conducting material (ever been in an elevator and your phone stops working? that's a Faraday cage), and WiFi inhibiting paint is a physical object that is opaque to radio frequency electromagnetic radiation. ECM works by generating noise, essentially. They're different -- you can in theory filter out noise, but there's no software that would allow radio waves to pass through radio-blocking material (sort of like how you can't make a flashlight shine through a brick wall).

Wifi-inhibiting paint is real, by the way:
http://emsectechnologies.com/press_releases/press1.php
Faraday cages are, of course, also real.
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WearzManySkins
post Mar 19 2008, 11:03 PM
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As for ECCM not taking up slots...sorry was getting ahead of myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ECCM is more than just some software, just like Jamming is not software, that is a flaw that RAW has.

Remember the microdrone is using sensors and communication yes in this case Fiber Optically but question comes up can a Radio Signal Scanner pick up the microdrones Sensors? and can a microdrone switch off its Wireless at will?

Switching off Wireless at will is a much discussed thread here, and posted in many threads.

RAW does not give any rules or examples for switching off wireless.

So the debate/discussion continues, we hope that Wired will answer questions like this with out opening up even more questions.

Either way, ECCM has no effect on Faraday Cages or Wi Fi inhibiting paint, ie they are not Electronic Counter Measures. Merely a designed feature built into a area or device.

As for using ducts as a sneak superhighway, if you disable the Thermographic (Fire Detection) Sensors alarms sound, the Particulate Sensors (Smoke Detectors), again alarm will sound if disabled, Vermin Sensors (Motion Sensor) again alarms sound if disabled. Duct sensors can be wired so hacking them is not an option. That is the current way ducting sensors are "wired" so I do not see them being "wired or Wireless" any different. To properly disable the ducting sensors it has to be done at the Main control panel, aka Fire Controls System panel.

WMS
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nathanross
post Mar 19 2008, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (Fuchs @ Mar 19 2008, 09:32 AM) *
It's more the "here there be bonus dice for social tests" I don't see the need for. I don't like the whole "Let's inflate DP" stuff, it leads to everyone and their brother having to have that kind of stuff, or be useless - and enhanced pheromones is enough of a boost already, IMHO, and better balanced.

I consider emotitoys just another "We need something better in this book" item, nothing that adds to my game, just another power creep thing.

Three cheers for Fuchs! Until I see a reason for Emotitoys other than Social DP inflation, they're out. Also, Cybereyes are video systems and as such can run Emo-softs. Which basically means that anyone with a camera visual mod now has +whatever DP on social tests. It's just stupid and not well thought out.
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Particle_Beam
post Mar 20 2008, 12:41 AM
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Power Creep sells. I'll bet the liver of the Unholy Donkey of Uruguay that after the last additional rulebook supplementals, they're going to introduce new uberstuff in SOTA-books...
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 20 2008, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 19 2008, 06:03 PM) *
As for using ducts as a sneak superhighway, if you disable the Thermographic (Fire Detection) Sensors alarms sound, the Particulate Sensors (Smoke Detectors), again alarm will sound if disabled, Vermin Sensors (Motion Sensor) again alarms sound if disabled. Duct sensors can be wired so hacking them is not an option. That is the current way ducting sensors are "wired" so I do not see them being "wired or Wireless" any different. To properly disable the ducting sensors it has to be done at the Main control panel, aka Fire Controls System panel.

WMS


Well sure, but it's kind of like saying "a maglock will only open if it detects the proper signal, so you can't get through doors that are maglocked". The Fire Controls System might have a vulnerability, like an external access port (for the fire department) that's protected, but not too protected. Or it might be a kind that has an exploitable fault -- and the character knows it, or knows where to research it, and has noted another flaw in standard method used to fix that flaw.

Half the fun of SR is figuring out a plan to bypass or disable security like that. AS long as you don't make it too easy, I think anything they come up with should have some chance to work, or at least cause trouble for someone.
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 20 2008, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE (nathanross @ Mar 19 2008, 06:50 PM) *
Three cheers for Fuchs! Until I see a reason for Emotitoys other than Social DP inflation, they're out. Also, Cybereyes are video systems and as such can run Emo-softs. Which basically means that anyone with a camera visual mod now has +whatever DP on social tests. It's just stupid and not well thought out.


I see this working one of two ways:

(1) emo-softs (great name) and emotitoys replace rather than add to social skills, because really, why should a thing that's supposed to help semi-autistic kids socialize make a skilled negotiator better?

or

(2) accept big social skill dice pools will be common, setting limits on what you can do with them (not fun).

Also I guess (3) assume everyone and their dog has cheap rating 6 emo-softs and it all cancels out.
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WearzManySkins
post Mar 20 2008, 01:18 AM
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FYI most modern systems do not have vermin sensors, but if we had things like devil rats and the like, we would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

As a player of a character of previous iteration of SR, who actually did use air ducts as a way in, "discovered" vermin sensors. Just because he was shape changed into a vermin, is neither here nor there. His street name is the same as forum name, due to the many shapes he could use.

The GM was not being hard merely difficult, I will not disclose how WMS got past the vermin sensors and the other nice things the GM put into his facility air duct systems.

One time I threw the GM for a loop, I came in thru a sewer line, into a toilet, in fact a womens toilet. *mutters bad words about the GM* it was occupied when WMS come up for air. Interesting times it was. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) High Heels hurt alot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

For me on the empathy software I will house rules the last sentence away.

WMS
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Siege
post Mar 20 2008, 02:25 AM
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Dr. Evil makes it seem stylish.

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Edit 1: I'd get one of these things as a character motif, even without the bonuses.

Edit 2: What about reinforcing negative behavior traits? "Mommy, Mr. Fluffy is telling me to do mean things!"
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nathanross
post Mar 20 2008, 02:27 AM
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QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Mar 19 2008, 08:54 PM) *
(1) emo-softs (great name) and emotitoys replace rather than add to social skills, because really, why should a thing that's supposed to help semi-autistic kids socialize make a skilled negotiator better?

Isn't that what skillwires are for? and Skillwires are at least capped at 4 in terms of software rating.

I guess one of the problems I have with the new system, is that almost everything is capped at Rating 6 (unless you make it yourself), and almost everything goes up to Rating 6. Why? I would have been fine with emo-softs if they gave maybe 1-2 die more (tops) or allowed for some weak assenssing test (what emotion is he feeling) sort of thing. It should not add to social tests, as Kinesics + Improved Ability (Social skills) is already too open ended, why do we need more?
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Mar 20 2008, 02:37 AM
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Yeah, I would see them as a combination low-powered "skillsoft" and a tutorsoft (because the idea is to teach you stuff, supposedly). I don't see it being able to make you as good as a professional negotiator, though -- Mr Fluffy says you should send out one of the hostages as a good faith gesture, okay? -- nor do I get how it would make a professional negotiator better. Aren't social skills (including the Social skills) kind of based, at least partly, on reading cues and relating to someone empathetically? A little AR overlay saying "the yawning guy is maybe bored" should only be helpful if you're actually a clueless sort of person, not a con artist. I don't think Hemingway would have been a better writer if he had Clippy the Paperclip telling him "it looks like you're writing a short story, want some help?".
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Drogos
post Mar 20 2008, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 19 2008, 06:03 PM) *
As for using ducts as a sneak superhighway, if you disable the Thermographic (Fire Detection) Sensors alarms sound, the Particulate Sensors (Smoke Detectors), again alarm will sound if disabled, Vermin Sensors (Motion Sensor) again alarms sound if disabled. Duct sensors can be wired so hacking them is not an option. That is the current way ducting sensors are "wired" so I do not see them being "wired or Wireless" any different. To properly disable the ducting sensors it has to be done at the Main control panel, aka Fire Controls System panel.

WMS


I'm sitting at a computer now that can disable all of those without alarms going off, only a little light popping up to say you disabled it. I imagine in 2070, for ease of use that same capability will be placed onto some poor schmucks commlink while they are at work, and we all know what we do about that. It's really amazing what working security will do for your shadowrun brain.
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DocTaotsu
post Mar 20 2008, 01:32 PM
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I like the idea of compensating for negative modifiers or using it's rating to replace your skill and/or stat or only boosting your abilities to a hard cap. Or a combination thereof. If it's a tool designed to help autistic children I think it's primary strength is going to be helping your 1 charisma troll act like a normal goddamn metahuman. I don't think it's going to be much use to a 7 charisma pornomancer except to help them out with etiquette rolls in situations they aren't used to.

In short, I like Fortune's idea so far but I'm strongly considering the other proposals.

Some other thoughts:
I refuse to believe that Mr Fluffy is going to be much good for intimidation: Mr Fluffy says to break his fingers, and get some paper clips and a bunsen burner... He also says we should get a glass pole with a diameter that matches his urethra. Doc? What's a urethra?
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Blade
post Mar 20 2008, 01:56 PM
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I imagine emotitoys as complex yet simple systems.
Complex because it does more than interpret yawns and smiles. It can study the pupil, the corner of the mouth and other parts which can tell a lot about the reaction of the subject, even if he's trying to hide his emotions (think Voigt-Kampf machine). It can tell the difference between a genuine and forced smile, a genuine and faked surprise, and so on.
Simple because it won't go too far either. If the person is good enough at masking or faking emotions, he'll fool the toy. Furthermore, someone who knows how to deceive it, will be able to do it easily. It might be as simple as downloading a special pattern for your cybereyes, doing a specific movement that you know will be interpreted this or that way by the toy...

I still don't know how I'd handle it, but I'd maybe roll an opposed rating vs target's composure (or con if the target is actively trying to fool the toy) test. If the target gets more hits, he'll fool the toy.
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Drogos
post Mar 20 2008, 01:59 PM
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I know it adds more dice rolls, but it could just be the toy rolls its rating, then beams you the info via AR/Image Link (ie he's sad, he's tired and angry, etc.) and you get a bonus per the AR assisted bonus (from +1-4 determined by the GM). It seems like this is an AR tool anyways.
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Fortune
post Mar 20 2008, 02:54 PM
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Altenately, maybe it could be treated as a Teamwork test, with only the Emotitoy's 'hits' adding dice to the character's pool.
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Drogos
post Mar 20 2008, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
Altenately, maybe it could be treated as a Teamwork test, with only the Emotitoy's 'hits' adding dice to the character's pool.


Would work similarly, I just would prefer to cap the possible successes to an ammount (I know unlikely to fer 6 hits with a DP of 6...but it does happen).
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Kremlin KOA
post Mar 20 2008, 06:25 PM
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In my games, if I ever run SR4 instead of playing it, Emotitoys will not stack with kinesics
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Kremlin KOA
post Mar 20 2008, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ Mar 20 2008, 10:18 AM) *
FYI most modern systems do not have vermin sensors, but if we had things like devil rats and the like, we would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

As a player of a character of previous iteration of SR, who actually did use air ducts as a way in, "discovered" vermin sensors. Just because he was shape changed into a vermin, is neither here nor there. His street name is the same as forum name, due to the many shapes he could use.

The GM was not being hard merely difficult, I will not disclose how WMS got past the vermin sensors and the other nice things the GM put into his facility air duct systems.

At this point I haved to call bullshit

If you siccessfully made it past the sensors you should let us know how
Otherwise you are merely trying to shut down clever ideas by others
So put up or shut up
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WearzManySkins
post Mar 20 2008, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (Kremlin KOA @ Mar 20 2008, 01:28 PM) *
At this point I haved to call bullshit

If you siccessfully made it past the sensors you should let us know how
Otherwise you are merely trying to shut down clever ideas by others
So put up or shut up


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No I will not lead you down the path of enlightenment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Besides go and watch Mythbusters for ideas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I never shut down the clever ideas, merely poked holes in them.

I agree a clever player can overcome many obstacles, I know I have done it, and I have seen it done. Too many times my players have totally stunned me with their clever ideas.

WMS
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