Personally I it a little weird they did not include a ATV fourwheeler, and that they left out a simple narcojet in with the tasers. However those are minor complaints I suppose. I have for some reason been trying to figure out the best way to stat out a Cyclops riding Dwarf Sam.

@Synner
Desktop Forges besides the tool advantage, why would any one use one? The Costs of using the feedstocks in making a mod exceed the cost of just buying the mod.

WMS

WMS--I thought the cost of the items in feed stock was the same as the parts cost of creating the item from scratch. Therefore the cost would be the same. What I see as the primary advantage is that you buy 5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of feedstock and can make nearly anything. You supplement purchases with a few items (circuits, springs what not) that can't be made in the forge. This means that you have amore versatility with your supply cost and aren't stuck sitting on a hundred pieces of product that just won't sell.

Synner: the Highwind is the airship in final fantasy VII. in shadowrun terms, it's a conestoga vista with the lighter-than-air mod, which for some unfathomable reason can be applied to any vehicle, not just flying ones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

mind you, it does make for a really easy way to add more blimps into the game, if that happens to be something you wanted to do =P

Correction that applies to rating 5 items or less, anything above rating 5 costs at least 25% to 50% more than if you just bought it. Do not forget to factor in the cost of the Forge too, minimum of 15k.

Additional Fuel Tank costs 1,000 bought or made, making one takes time, buying does not.
Anti-Theft System cost 200 times body bought, but 250 times body made.
Large Landing Drone Racks cost 20,000 bought but 30,000 made.

Again why have feedstock when it is cheaper to buy most items, and with most Pornomancer Faces takes less time to locate the mod part than it does to make it. Why buy feedstock and have them lying around, just go shopping with your Pornomancer Face.

Versatility equals greater costs?

I do not know about you but at character gen, spending extra money for versatility is not high on my list.

WMS

Does a forge not have the advantage of making a Facility mobile?

In fact with a cost of only two capacity you can potentially fit the entire thing (and satellite coms) into a drone and do the entire mod in the field without ever having to leave the comfort of your hardened bunker....

WMS--You must be reading it differently than I was. The cost of the forge not withstanding, the material cost of an upgrade was the cost of the parts. Let's say 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . For items which cannot be entirely made with the forge, some of the materials must be bought directly-- 750 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of feedstock and 250 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) of circuitry. The percentages are inclusive not extra.

The Desktop Forge is also not something I would buy at char-gen, but rather something to pick up later. Same for the feedstock. The versatility allows you to modify things in the field as Crizh mentioned or to make changes without needing to find out if a specific item is available. (The team had a high profile job and is hiding out--rather than having someone stick their neck out to get a custom grip and integral smartlink, the team's armorer is able to make most of the items and modifications with only a few small components needed from the outside world.)

Again this will be a parsing/word circle jerk.

It needs to say what you are saying BishopMQ.

I see many advantages to getting a Desktop Forge at chargen, ie modding ones weapons being one.

For 15,000+ I can get a contact to deliver the parts needed for custom grip or smartgun link, with out the use of a Pornomancer too. It gets even cheaper with a Pornomancer involved.

WMS

The extension of the modification to all vehicles and drones is intentional. The only thing that will probably be errata'd regarding the LTA mod is the max Body the modified vehicle may possess to still allow lift (and maybe the ability to attach and detach the LTA section of the vehicle which currently doesn't exist). If you want to drive around in a EuroCar Westwind with a 20m blimp on top to allow it to fly that's fine. The problems should be obvious though. People may or may not like the option, they may or may not use it, but there's no reason why it shouldn't be viable.


The rules mean exactly what they say.

The "about" is meant to give the gamemaster some leeway if he wants, but otherwise the cost of the feedstock is the same as for the parts involved in the modification. All the remaining advantages of the desktop forge have been stated above, it is a highly flexible tool that will allow you to build pretty much anything you want under the right conditions, it is mobile, and it is cheap for what it offers a mechanic, a tinkerer, armorer, or a rigger. If you think it's money badly spent then I suggest you don't buy one. There are plenty of people in the Sixth World , including more than a few shadowrunners, who will.

For the record, I was talking about the Celebrian Striker, LTA'd. That'd be the Highwind, a Final Fantasy type zeppelin warship. Good to know that is getting fixed, though. I do see it possible (though utterly senseless) for smaller vehicles.

Not to be all twink about it, but why?

The major selling point of LTA is it's scaling. How could you justify putting in a BOD cap when the Zeppelin has a BOD of 34?

In reality such a vehicle ought to gain BOD with the gigantic increase in volume...

What it does need though is sensible rules for propulsion, speed and acceleration.

Of course first we need sensible rules that cover stuff like cargo capacity for all vehicles....

Passenger capacities for all vehicles would be nice, too. Especially the larger ones. Whether one or two squads fit into the Citymaster IS important.

And Sensors that are better than a pimped emotitoy. You don't really mean to tell us that spysats and high-end warships don't have sensor suites better than a bloody emotitoy, do you?

They don't. It's not the sensor packages that are necessarily superior but the ways to show the sensoric feedback and the personel to interpret this feedback.

Funny, I'm sitting looking at one (a warship of some description) as we speak and I'm pretty sure the sensors I can see from here are never going to fit on a device I could put in my pocket....

And you think in SR2070 where nanotechnology allows for ridiciulous factors in miniaturization that those sensors will still be of the same size? Remember: An emotitoy does NOT need a radar system capable of naval combat guidance (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You don't even need an emotitoy for that sensor package. all you need is the software, your comlink and glasses or a monocle with the ability to visually record what it's pointed at. heck, you could use your cyber eyes for that!

No, but with that miniaturisation available, do you think warships will restrict themselves to that level when they could have even more and better sensors? Or spysats? If so, why?

Sorry to say, but you can't put 20 armor on your segway. Under the "Armor" modification (p. 133) you can only have total Armor equal to twice the Body rating. So that's Armor of 4; not all that great, and anyway, I'd say a segway is sufficiently open that the armor would only count if you were shooting at the vehicle itself rather than the driver.

ah but don't forget its vehicle armor. isn't that a much tougher grade then normal armor like on a body or sheild? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, sure, but only if you can't beat the armor value with your DV. If you can't do more than 4 DV you should stay home and let professionals handle your job... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Yeah, I agree. I found it weird that they put the Thundercloud Morgan in as an ATV when it's basically a 2 seater buggy ala the DPVs/FAVs used in Desert Storm. Ah well. At least the speed is kinda in the right ball park for a sport ATV. Removing the option for a 2nd person, the weapon mount and cutting the body in half in exchange for a big boost to handling would probably be a decent approximation of an ATV. I'd rather have the Morgan in game over regular ATVs, since I think it's more fun and potentially useful in a Mad Max kinda way, but it was handled kinda goofy and it would have been nice to squeeze in both somewhere.

Howdy,
I tried to search through this thread, and I may have missed something. Why do all the Flechette weapons have AP +2? I thought it was moved to +5 a while back but I am no master of the rules. Are the newer Flechette weapons just better?

The Weapon chapter of Arsenal was finished long before the errata revised flechettes, and though several of our playtesters caught it, it somehow slipped through various revisions and proof-readings. The Arsenal errata will reflect the revised flechette modifiers in SR4.

I just got my copy along with enclaves yesterday and finally sitting down and digesting them and noticed Flechette mods, logged on to do search and bam here it is, Synner and his ninja like reflex's.

Little confused in explosives section, Bangalore which is a WWII era tech seemed out of place/date and not one mention of modern ap or av mines. Is there an easy way to use create wireless or smart mines/claymore type weapons with explosive rules that Im missing? (granted so far only breezed over explosive section)

Something else I found rating for special armor mods, 1-6 in chart 1-10 in text.

the bangalore was in sota63. and i can see some use for a rigid tube of explosives even today (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

and i think one can create mines using generic sensors. oh, and check out the push detonator...

Bangalore is'nt even used in our time anymore,was replaced by MCLC Mine Clearing Line Charge. An updated version of the old Bangalore. I like the future of current mine tech, wired mesh network, smart, "self healing" can move to replace detonated mines theres a thread here on DS about giving a minefield a persona for laughs. Nothing like a suicidal mine field with a dark sense of humor.

And of course the infamous claymore, requested more then once over the years by several different players in my groups, staple of action and war movies and just always expected to see it covered in SR. I've never been able to houserule it to the satisfaction of players involved and wish I had canon stats to reference for them.