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> This is why we can't have nice things..., Says one UCAS Marine to another...
DocTaotsu
post Apr 2 2008, 12:19 PM
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We’ve talked about what happens after enhanced people get out of the military but a recent spat of "Military members being complete retards" IRL spawned a lively discussion in my group about how militaries in 2070 would deal with super soldiers. Being that my current job description effectively reads “Scrape drunk Marines/Sailors off pavement and take them to the hospital� I can personally attest that military member + alcohol= Shenanigans and consequently, pistol whipping. Adding cyberspurs, enhanced reflexes, and so forth would only make this equation more unpleasant. Also, if they are cybernetically enhanced I can only assume that they’re going to see more combat which, historically, means they’ll have a much higher incidences of PTSD (not to mention cyberpsychosis).

Corpsman: “Okay, what’s going on?�
MAA/PMO: “Uh… well we had him contained until he tripped his reflex trigger, exuded foot long blades, and clawed Harrison’s face off. We’re pretty sure he spit acid on Reynolds too.�
Corpsman: “But where is he now?�
MAA/PMO: “Oh he’s on top of that 15 story building having a seizure. We’re waiting for the duty rigger to get a drone up there to bring him down. I don’t think he’s breathing, he turned blue about 10 minutes ago.�
Corpsman goes to his ambulance and cries.

Much of these problems would probably be mitigated by smaller numbers of troops with more training and not all that much cyber (it’s expensive and probably not worth putting into a 4 year contract soldier). I’d also imagine that the military makes use of combat drugs because they’re cheap, effective, and are easier to control than a set of wires.

The other obvious thing to do would be to stick to cyberware, it’s cheap and it should be easy to install hardwired cutouts and removable components. If you’re conducting training or going to war you have to head down to the armory and check out the pieces necessary to take your body off safe. By making it an actual piece of hardware that’s removed you avoid the whole situation where hackers find your kill codes and set your platoon to “rag dolls�. It also amuses me to imagine enhanced soldiers practicing with foam cyberspurs. I suppose in theater you still have the issue of bored soldiers using their weapons to hurt themselves/each other but that’s what freeze foam is for right?

Of course this is all avoiding the sticky issue of magically active soldiers. I’m riveted by the image of a 18 year old kid who can throw force 4 fireballs getting drunk and angry and blowing up a cab driver because of a disagreement over the bill. Worse yet, how do you control a halfway decent adept in between missions? Magically active people might represent a small percentage of the total population but I’d imagine that they’d typically find their way into the ranks of a military or a corps. Which leads to a question about how magically active folk fit into a military structure. My best guess is that they’d have to be at least warrant officers so they could legally be responsible for the amount of destruction they walk around with. That and enlisted pay is probably just not going to cut when the corps are waving this huge wads of certified cred at them.

So what do you all think? Bunrak Parlor the lot of them?
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FrankTrollman
post Apr 2 2008, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE
Much of these problems would probably be mitigated by smaller numbers of troops with more training and not all that much cyber (it’s expensive and probably not worth putting into a 4 year contract soldier). I’d also imagine that the military makes use of combat drugs because they’re cheap, effective, and are easier to control than a set of wires.


I doubt it. Training a soldier takes a lot of time and a lot of money. Consider that training a specialist soldier costs as much as $250,000. Any force multiplier they can add on that would be welcomed. Wired 1, even Wired 2 looks mighty mighty affordable at that rate. Hell, if you can get them out of boot camp faster, a little Muscle Replacement goes a long way.

-Frank
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HullBreach
post Apr 2 2008, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 2 2008, 11:05 AM) *
At which point the ware is probably going to be obsolete anyways.
I brought that point up because I remember seeing a guy in bootcamp who had a full non-removable gold "grill". I think he forgot how to smile by the end of bootcamp.


I figured it would work more like, ok youve survived the fleet for a year, heres the catalog with whole-sale prices listed. Pick what your interested in and we'll sit you down to discuss your choices with the Doc. Your contract states you have $x to spend, and your welcome to supplement this with your own cash.

QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 2 2008, 11:05 AM) *
Skilwires have merit but until they start making "Don't be dumb" a standard feature you probably need bootcamp to hardwire some basics into peoples wetware. Just because you can shoot decently doesn't make you a particulalry effective soldier.


The Doc makes a damn good point here: Very little is actually learned in Boot Camp. In all honesty I could probobly teach a classroom of 18-23 yearolds all of the knowledge learned in those 13 weeks in about 2-3 days. Boot Camp is all about conditioning individuals to act as part of a group. This is a lot harder than you might think, especially given the 'im special' mentality drilled into kids by their parents and public schools.

The majority of recruits who wash out of Boot do so within the first 96 hours, as they simply cannot deal with being yelled at. You get a few more who wash later due to bad drug test results, piss-poor PT performance, and the occaisional recruit who just cant shoot no matter how much we train them, but they arent common.

If it was just about basic soldiering skills, it would take me less than a week to train up a bunch of schoolkids. Thing is, as soon as they were under fire they wouldn't respond properly (if at all) to orders, and their lack of discipline would get them (and anyone else in their vicinity) killed.
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FrankTrollman
post Apr 2 2008, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE
Much of these problems would probably be mitigated by smaller numbers of troops with more training and not all that much cyber (it’s expensive and probably not worth putting into a 4 year contract soldier). I’d also imagine that the military makes use of combat drugs because they’re cheap, effective, and are easier to control than a set of wires.


I doubt it. Training a soldier takes a lot of time and a lot of money. Consider that training a specialist soldier costs as much as $250,000. Any force multiplier they can add on that would be welcomed. Wired 1, even Wired 2 looks mighty mighty affordable at that rate. Hell, if you can get them out of boot camp faster, a little Muscle Replacement goes a long way.

-Frank
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Lionhearted
post Apr 2 2008, 03:31 PM
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Buying directly from factory + massive scale buyouts = massive discounts = cheap soldiers
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HullBreach
post Apr 2 2008, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Apr 2 2008, 11:26 AM) *
I doubt it. Training a soldier takes a lot of time and a lot of money. Consider that training a specialist soldier costs as much as $250,000. Any force multiplier they can add on that would be welcomed. Wired 1, even Wired 2 looks mighty mighty affordable at that rate. Hell, if you can get them out of boot camp faster, a little Muscle Replacement goes a long way.

-Frank


As of 1999 (Year I enlisted) to fully train, equip, insure, and put a Marine Infantryman in the field cost a hair over $1,000,000USD. Today, given the advances in technology and training regimes, as well as the addition of body armor thats actually worth a damn, id guess thats closer to the $1.5~1.8million USD mark.

Current trends in spending/training and force projection outlooks indicate that a larger millitary isn't necessarily the answer, but a much more intensely trained and better equipped one is. I honestly see many non-combat support roles and jobs being automated or filled by contractors (It actually is cheaper that way) to free up more personell for the fight.

I also think we are going to see a trend towards longer contracts, but with much more robust benefits, so investing in your troops does make sense.
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b1ffov3rfl0w
post Apr 2 2008, 06:37 PM
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I'm wondering if it's canon or assumption that the UCAS (or CAS, or whatever) military of 2070 operates at all along the same lines as the US in 2008 (or, as someone pointed out, 1989). The whole "join up, learn skills, get money for college" thing could be very much a thing of the past as the social contract gets re-negotiated again and again. I could just as easily envision a system where, for example, violent criminals (or just unfortunate delinquents) are conscripted, given p-fix implants, a few weeks of mental conditioning, and then bam, they're infantry. Then actual volunteers make up the officers, EW specialists, medics, intel, riggers, hackers, supply and so on. Extrapolating current trends, a lot of non-combat roles would be covered by contractors (a lot of the combat roles too, for that matter, but the UCAS still has to have an army, in part because if Blackwater is attached to a country it's the CAS).

Also, the Air Force will have been completely taken over by fringe Evangelicals, probably by the time dragons start showing up. I bet that's interesting stuff.
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Moon-Hawk
post Apr 2 2008, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ Apr 2 2008, 10:21 AM) *
am I the only one who would think that they would have cyberware that disables itself while the user is under the influence as a design feature?

Huh. Neat idea.
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Lionhearted
post Apr 2 2008, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE
I could just as easily envision a system where, for example, violent criminals (or just unfortunate delinquents) are conscripted, given p-fix implants, a few weeks of mental conditioning, and then bam, they're infantry.


Now you know what happened to your runner when the men from the black van took him *shudder*
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crizh
post Apr 2 2008, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE (b1ffov3rfl0w @ Apr 2 2008, 07:37 PM) *
violent criminals (or just unfortunate delinquents) are conscripted, given p-fix implants,



If you can get hold of it you simply must read Michael Swanwick's Vacuum Flowers. Best piece of Cyberpunk I ever read. Total mind-f**k from beginning to end.
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Nightwalker450
post Apr 2 2008, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Fix-it @ Apr 2 2008, 10:21 AM) *
am I the only one who would think that they would have cyberware that disables itself while the user is under the influence as a design feature?


Darts to inject alchohol into the system to disable cyber-sammy... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Moon-Hawk
post Apr 2 2008, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 2 2008, 01:58 PM) *
Darts to inject alchohol into the system to disable cyber-sammy... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you've established that you can get a dart in him, alcohol is hardly the worst thing you could put in it.
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nezumi
post Apr 2 2008, 07:58 PM
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If only we could get him to intentionally ingest the alcohol... Maybe we could lace it with something, like fruit yummies? I have no idea...
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Nightwalker450
post Apr 2 2008, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Apr 2 2008, 02:00 PM) *
If you've established that you can get a dart in him, alcohol is hardly the worst thing you could put in it.


You know if runners found out that cyber soldiers shut down when they had alcohol in their system, one of them would be trying this.
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HullBreach
post Apr 2 2008, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ Apr 2 2008, 01:58 PM) *
Darts to inject alchohol into the system to disable cyber-sammy... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Alcohol also absorbs through the skin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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nezumi
post Apr 2 2008, 08:31 PM
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It can also be inhaled. And of course, quite a few vehicles in Shadowrun (and in the modern day) include alcohol in their fuel.
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DocTaotsu
post Apr 2 2008, 10:33 PM
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Well a basic set of wires only cost 11k which is dirt cheap all things considered. For basic infantry that's certainly a lot of bang for your buck when you consider that you can always upgrade to wires 2 at a later time.

~30k to make a soldier roughly 3 times as effective? That is a pretty cost effective enhancement. I still stand by my assessment that serious cyber won't go in until you're certain that Pvt Nobody isn't going to bolt back the Barren's anytime soon. Additionally I've always believed that there is an extensive training cycle involved with wires. Anyone read "Old Man's War"? I'd imagine it's like that, a lot of training to teach you how to redline your fancy wares without turning into a twitching mass of flesh.


As to "Drunks with wires". Jesus... hitting your reflex trigger after a hard night of drinking sounds like a perfect plan for projectile vomitting.
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Jaid
post Apr 2 2008, 10:41 PM
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QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ Apr 2 2008, 06:33 PM) *
Well a basic set of wires only cost 11k which is dirt cheap all things considered. For basic infantry that's certainly a lot of bang for your buck when you consider that you can always upgrade to wires 2 at a later time.

~30k to make a soldier roughly 3 times as effective? That is a pretty cost effective enhancement. I still stand by my assessment that serious cyber won't go in until you're certain that Pvt Nobody isn't going to bolt back the Barren's anytime soon. Additionally I've always believed that there is an extensive training cycle involved with wires. Anyone read "Old Man's War"? I'd imagine it's like that, a lot of training to teach you how to redline your fancy wares without turning into a twitching mass of flesh.

it's a heck of a lot less to just give him some jazz. if you absolutely must have it as 'ware, give him an auto-injector. useful thing to have around anyways, hook it up to a biomonitor and it pumps whatever he needs into his system. now when you send him home, he doesn't have a rather illegal piece of 'ware in him, and the 'ware cost less than 10% as much.

skillwires i do think would be somewhat more common, but really... the average soldier i expect would just use combat drugs more than anything. sure, if you stick around a while that could get upgraded, but as the default? i have my doubts.
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kzt
post Apr 3 2008, 12:04 AM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 2 2008, 08:42 AM) *
If you base your Shadowrun off the modern day instead of 1989 (which I understand some people do), you'll notice that even now experienced people are leaving the military for the better pay and benefits of the corporate world. The Navy is throwing huge sign-on bonuses and only painty-wasted services like the Air Force are regularly meeting recruitment goals.

Actually, Army Combat Arms is having no issue with getting recruits. It's support services that has a hard time. Very few people want to talk about why that is, but it has a lot to do with how different socioeconomic groups make choices. And the Navy is firing people IIRC, They always have (like for the last 20 years) had huge sign-on bonus for a certain specialties.
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Dr. John Desmond
post Apr 3 2008, 12:11 AM
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I highly doubt they are going to be giving Soldiers Combat Drugs. You don't want your army working off of something that has a durational effect. Now individual soldiers using it... yes, but not likely as an institutional thing.
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kzt
post Apr 3 2008, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE (Magus @ Apr 2 2008, 06:37 AM) *
That kinda reminds me of the Novel series Cobras! I cannot remember the author, where a young man from a back colony world enlists and volunteers for the C.O.B.R.A corp whereas they implant CyberTechnology (ie MBW a cyber implanted grendade/rifle in the left leg, Pinky Lasers) they cannot be removed but the ssytems can be downgraded from Super Soldier to better than average man. Good Series.

Anti-armor laser in the leg. Plus some really cool other toys linked to a computer that has access to everything he sees and hears and has automated target engagement sequencers, so they fire as fast as the computer can line up the target. And the computer can literally react faster than they could think to a deadly threat. They could take out the AAL, but they couldn't remove the computer due to the anti-interrogation programming.
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Lyonheart
post Apr 3 2008, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (HullBreach @ Apr 2 2008, 11:35 AM) *
As of 1999 (Year I enlisted) to fully train, equip, insure, and put a Marine Infantryman in the field cost a hair over $1,000,000USD. Today, given the advances in technology and training regimes, as well as the addition of body armor thats actually worth a damn, id guess thats closer to the $1.5~1.8million USD mark.

Current trends in spending/training and force projection outlooks indicate that a larger millitary isn't necessarily the answer, but a much more intensely trained and better equipped one is. I honestly see many non-combat support roles and jobs being automated or filled by contractors (It actually is cheaper that way) to free up more personell for the fight.

I also think we are going to see a trend towards longer contracts, but with much more robust benefits, so investing in your troops does make sense.


Well, one has to be careful with such thinking because it flies in the face of Lanchester's Square Law,
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester%27s_laws
Quantity has a quality of it's own...
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Jaid
post Apr 3 2008, 12:48 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. John Desmond @ Apr 2 2008, 08:11 PM) *
I highly doubt they are going to be giving Soldiers Combat Drugs. You don't want your army working off of something that has a durational effect. Now individual soldiers using it... yes, but not likely as an institutional thing.

life is cheap in the sixth world. just pump them full of more drugs when the first dose wears off.
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Cthulhudreams
post Apr 3 2008, 12:53 AM
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I've said my bit on this before, but this is how I reckon it will go.

The military will be positively tiny compared to today.

wars will be much higher intensity than today, and todays wars are pretty high intensity. huge chunks of war fighting will be automated. An entire artillery regiment will have seriously like 3 guys, The CO, the 2iC, and a guy who fixes the shit when it breaks. All weapons platforms, support platforms and the entire supply chain will be automated. In that situation the regiment will either be moving or firing at all times 24/7/365. So everyone is going to need to be awake, or atleast ready to go.

The military will have a 20+:1 drone to person ratio in all arms at the teeth end, and hundreds to 1 in the logistical tail or during occupation.

Military salaries will go up. Drastically. You can afford to pay like 10 times today salaries and still come out ahead thanks to automation.

You'll sign up for 7 years or longer when you join, but extensive augmentation (usually those +2 IP passes, DNI, attention copresseors, and sleep regulators will be fit) The objective here is to prepare you for a new super high intensity war. if you are one of three guys running a division drone repair factory (which will be supporting over 300,000 drones, possibly millions), sleeping in the field is not an option, and you need to be highly quick and responsive.

for combat troops, drugs will not be an option because endlessly taking kamikaze for a week straight will kill you Same for jazz or pretty much anything. And trust me, they won;t be sleeping for a week straight either. So instead they get synaptic boosters 2, muscle toner 2, eyes, ears, attention coproccessors, a datajack, sleep regulators and some more bling and get told to get on with it.
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Jaid
post Apr 3 2008, 01:05 AM
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i disagree. you can always find more SINless masses to replace however many you lose. train 'em in simsense (or just use a P-fix even), chuck 'em into the front lines, and just let sheer numbers do your work for you.

why bother with a sleep regulator when you can just use long haul? heck, even if you don't want to pump them up on combat drugs, just give them something with full auto and let them use suppressing fire. fewer IPs is actually better when you're just suppressing anyways...

assuming you're even using soldiers on the front lines, they have to compete in terms of cost with combat drones, which means if you're putting actual people on the battlefield in 2070, you're pretty much throwing a SINless mob with minimal training, some second-hand 'ware (from the previous group of SINless, now dead) and the cheapest enhancements you can get.

i do agree that the military will have heavily augmented people, no question of that. and i do agree that actual trained military would be valued highly enough to give them the 'ware.

but the guy on the front lines, who's got to compete with a 5k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) combat drone? nope. no way. the only reason for him to be there instead of a steel lynx or a doberman is because he's actually even *cheaper* to put on the front line, and because he's SINless nobody even has to be reported as dead (you hand out a SIN at the end of their time in the military, not the start, and you mostly recruit these guys only when combat is imminent pretty much).

sure, sucks to be the poor sap out there getting shot, but if you somehow manage to live maybe they'll train you and transfer you to one of those nice, cushy jobs operating the drone facility or whatever.
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Cthulhudreams
post Apr 3 2008, 01:45 AM
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I never suggested extensive use of people on the frontlines. I suggested extensive use of drones on the front line, and people filling the leadership and tactical leaderships roles that drone cannot do. Explictly cannot do.

And frankly as a drone is actually cheaper AND more effective than a p-fixed criminal, really you're just going to use the Steel Lynx for actual shooting of things. It even has armour. Whats not to love. A drone comes with shooting skills, a heavy machine guy, and armour for 5 grand. Buying the dude on the frontlines armour and rifle costs like 3 grand. Then you need to spend enough time with him using tutorsofts to get rating 3 automatics, which the steel lynx has out of the box. Which is 2 months, at low lifestyles (army barracks) thats another 4 grand. 7 grand right there. Using people as on the combat line shootists is completely moronic.

However, both p-fixed criminals and drones have no understanding of tactics at all. So you need actual trained soldiers to do this effectively. And once that actual trained soldier has spent more than 8 weeks in a combat zone (people spend YEARS in iraq) its better to give them a sleep regulator. Once he's spend longer than a couple of hours fighting, may as well give him wired reflexes rather than jazz. Drugs are expensive, and that 3rd IP pass is the sole province of 'ware.

That and long haul is crap assed drug to give people. when you crash you are completely K.O.ed for a long time. This is not an option for the only tactical expert in your force to be asleep at a critical time. And as all the time is potentially a critical time, he needs a sleep regulator, which allows him to snatch sleep when he can get it, and be functional all the time. Long haul is no good for decision makers - NCO's and officers - which are the only people left in the military given that everything low level can be done by a drone.
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