I do, and no, because neither elves nor other metahumans have either special dietrary requirements that make them "special", nor do they have a "hunted" sign on their forehead as soon as they out themselves, and thus, cocnealing their infection and their ... eating habits ... will take up undue amounts of time for thatc haracter only, with the vamp character always having the campaign revolve around him and his vampire-y-ness. Spotlight whore.

Also, there's alwya<ys this "am I yet human" factor with vamps, this emo "oh, I did ghastly things, but I have to, I am still feeling!" factor that is centtral to many Mary Sues.


Would hardly be 'intense and personal'. Also, it hardly incapacitates a victim.


It does? Mind to quote that?


Sure, they do have to to replicate, unless that has been retconned and they have become ghouls deluxe.

The spotlight whore is not the character per se, but the player portraying it. Also, every Runner is special per definition. He has more Cyberware then any normal person even thinks possible, or wields magic most people hope does not exist. Every one of them is per definition "hunted" and they have to conceal their... illigal habits... like killing people without even blinking or thinking twice. The need for essence or flesh is sure not nice, but not really that much worse then what the average Runner does for a living. Also, what do you think notoriorety is for.

Oukay. First, pussy Anne Rice wannabee vampires have feelings. Stupid WoD gamers portray their chars having feelings. But seriously? Vampires are predators. Immortal beeings are assholes. Boiled down to it, it's the players, not the vampires that are wusses. Second, do you mind to name a few Mary Sue characters that have the "oh, I did ghastly things, but I have to, I am still feeling!" factor? I really can't imagine how that works for anything but a few Mary Sue variants.

Also, accusing vampires of beeing emo no matter the setting or indivuum is like saying every jew is a baby blood drinking, greedy, hooknosed rat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

If you think so, I don't feel like changing your mind on that topic. You stick to rape, I stick to psychological abuse.

Actually, no. Read it yourself. I'm way to lazy.


Replicate? Did I miss something?

No they started with Essence 6, though I didn't realize you were supposed to purchase a shapeshifters atts seperate for each form, we never did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

in SR3, you buy the shifter attributes separately . . they got nerfed as player characters as did ghouls . . so instead of running around with a mediocre human and a beastly beast you ran around with . . a madeiocre human and a mediocre animal or one weakling and one strong . . at least on char-gen . . the regeneration was sorely needed, because wearing armor is kinda hard if your body tends to not stay human once the fighting starts and you don't have much body in either form and no natural armor . .

Well, in other games and settings I might accept moral qualms about the feeding needs of the Infected as a valid issue, but in Shadowrun, where the average runner doesn't bat an eye at being commissioned the planned murder or life-ruin of strangers as a routine job, it frankly reeks me of hypocrisy. When assassination (or advancing corporate plots that might mean the ruin of countless innocents) is your job routine, you have no higher moral ground to claim that being a vampire/wendigo (or a twisted magician/adept, for that matter) is any way more *evil* than your average runner. Of course, unless your runners are all nice heroic Robin Hoods that only do runs to protect the innocent or ameliorate the lot of the downtrodden, in which a case you might indeed claim your soapbox. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Insect Shamans and Poisoner Toxics are a wholly different level of evil, since they may easily cause mass murder and widespread destruction if allowed to run unchecked, as opposed to victimize occasional individuals. OTOH, an Avenger ecoterrorist shaman is IMO a fine and wholly confortable character option, but as far as I understand it, in SR4 Avenger ecoterrorist shamans are supposed to be twisted magicians rather than true Toxics.

And anyway, yes, vampires and wendigoes need Essence to survive, but who says that it has to come from the bodies of innocents ? In your average sprawl, there is no shortage of irredeamable scum that can service as donors. I'm sure that the corporate executive that has just ordered to dump toxic waste in the middle of the slum and eliminate anyone that objects will be a fine source to provide my Infected character with the lifeforce he needs to survive another half a year, and the world will be a brighter place for the exchange. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

You mix up things here good. Vampires (and other infected) are hunted because of what they are and will be shot on sight justr because. They also, in addition to law enforcement, always have dedicated organisations out to kill them (for something they aren't faulty of, a Mary Sue trait). This comes per default. Ordinary runners, on the other hand, neither absolutly have to kill people, nor do have to have some horrific cyberweapons (or whatever you are talking about with cyberwre people would hope doesn't exist). Alsokilling people without thinking it through on a regular basis is more a trait of an idit and less of a shadowrunner ... and notoriety is fairly useless, save as a tool for GM fiat.


Yeah, boil it down like that and it's the players, not the Mary Sue characters, who are at fault. That vampires lend themselves like no other race too mary sue-ism (revenge and angsty sues mostly, though a newborn vampure works as a help-me-sue too, I think) still remains an issue. And that I don't really see how, except for an insane or vampire themed campaign, such a character could be integrated into the group without being the constant sucker for attention just because of it's affliction and the needs and troubles that come with it.

As for the characters: I doupt you know Steele, Sue (!) or Moonchild (who since has stopped being a vampire, I heared), as they're all privatly played (rules-breaking) SR characters by two certain players ... as for characters from vampy fiction? Sorry, I don't read fan fiction.


So you're saying most jews are? Because, thanks to Anne Rice, movies like Blade, Underworld and UV, and of course oWoD V:TM, yes, most vampires ARE emo by default.


Like slapping. Eh, right.


The obvious answer would be "yes". I was talking about creating other infected. Spreading the disease. Make people become vampires. It requires them to completly drain victims, unlike lycantrophes and ghouls, who just need to bite someone to infect them.


Wendigo, for instance, prefer the flesh of cannibals (for whatever reason), and thus will try to corrupt those surrounding them (the other PC), in order to eventually eat them. The other PC would, if I am not mistaken, also become psychologically dependent on their cannibalistic diet. So yes, tthis WOULD fuck up all other PC just because someone really wants to play a Wendigo.

Vampires and Banshees are a little less hard to integrate into a normal runner group without ruining any character they come in contact with, though the dietrary requirement really will drain GM attention and possibly dominate the campaign's plot no matter what, giving the character pretty much the core attribute of a RP Mary Sue.


Oh, so your infected will be "all nice heroic Robin Hoods that only do runs to protect the innocent or ameliorate the lot of the downtrodden"?

why did you have to include blade in the emo category?
blade is a bastard with a sick sense of humor <.< . . and i like that!

I am not even going to bother replying Hermit, except to say you clearly have absolutely no idea what so ever about how vampirism is portrayed outside of Ann Rice, common view of World of Darkness, and a few main-stream ripoffs, and likely have no idea what gothic culture is like, or many others confused with it do to physical appearance, as you are implying it is all emo.

Perhaps in a few weeks, if I have the patience (unlikely), I may enlighten you. Otherwise, do not expect any more replies.

Not Blade as a character, but the opposing vampires. Sorry, should have clarified that.

Vampires don't need kill people by default. Runners are usually shot on sight, just because. There are dedicated organisation to stop runners from doing what they do (it's called security, btw). And the usual law enforcement is still present of course. So, every runner is a Mary Sue [hermit variant]?

Dude. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

And yes, slapping someone in the face can have a very interesting effect, if the victim is unable to retaliate. It works on children and grownups alike. Of course you don't understand that, because you see only the physical effect, while I'm talking about psychology. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

ok, you are forgiven . . the one vampire not to actually be in that emo corner and you have to pick on him as an example . . shame on you! *g*

1) Never said that.
2) Because you can interrogate corpses really well. And because you're only after foot soldiers and never, ever want to know who actually sent them. That's not called security, that's stupid.
3) You conveniently ignore other points I brought up, Malicant.


Uhm, yeah, if you have the time to knock them out, drag them to your cellar and work them over for about half an hour on top of tht, that might work. I didn't say rape was the only way to create that nescessary "intense" bond. I just said it was the fastest. And physically superior as vampy chars tend to be, it's quite a dependable way too.

The vampires from 30 days of night and J.C.'s Vampires were different from the emo stereotype too, but in popular mainstream fiction, that's what Vampires are.

Spike (of Buffy) would be an exception to that rule too.

True, but you implied it.

No, it's not. Security wants to prevent a) being shot and b) intrusion. They rarely care who send the runners. High Security Super Secret Facilities might be diffrent, but that's just proving the point. The interogation, capturing part is done by black ops or company men AFTER the intrusion could not have been prevented.


As do you, so we are quite in good company to continue this for some time.


Vamps are not quite superior to anyone anymore, that times are past. And rape is not fast. Also, it is not easy. If you jump a guy/gal in an ally and rape them just to feed on them afterwards chances of failure are high since you are not in control of the situation. Also, raping a troll might be interesting, but knocking him out with drugs/taser and humiliating him afterwards is quite easy. The bigger they are and all that.

Damn boy, were you never at any public school that you have no idea of the power of psychological abuse? It's simple and effective and traumatises people for life. So does rape, granted, but fast and furious alley rape will get you killed real fast.
Infected need to act like serial killers, not like gangbangers. It's all about leaving (or rather not leaving) a trail of bodies.


Those were not Vampires. Those were screaming. They were more like rabid ghouls.


I have no clue who J.C. might be, but popular culture and Anne Rice wannabee are not the same. By default even WoD vampires are immortal assholes, not emo bitches (Toreador excluded).


Spike is kewl, but not because he is a vampire. He is just cool. Which prooves kind of my point that being Mary Sue/spotligh hogger/emo bitch is not linked to being a vampire. Thanks for bringing him up.

Spike was an emo prior to his transformation as a vampire, and when he became a vampire and started to love Buffy, he returned being an emo again.

Oh dear...

Okay, yeah, I was thinking of 2nd season early Spike, not "Gosh I just got my soul back" spike. Before, he actually was a rather brilliant parody of vampire (and vampire enthusiast) cliches.


No, that's what you read into my badly phrased sentence. Can we put this to rest now?


1) I was, but I wasn't quite someone whom people liked to abuse.
2) Yes, it works, and I never said it didn't. Breaking someone purely by violance does take more time than raping soemone, though. In bothcases, the vamp better pick someone inferior to him, so the troll would be off in either of our examples.


Wow, and here I thought Vamps didn't HAVE to kill their victims, so they could just slip sime Laele into some ghirl's drink, take her to the back room, make her wake up, rape/essence-drain her, and give her another dose of Laele, leaving her to winder why she wakes up with bite marks and an essence rating of 1.


Two words: Terminus Project. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


He's the exception to the rule. Any othjer Buffyverse vamp pretty much is a sue, Angel included (Glad for the actor he got a decent role in Bones, by the way).

The Mary Sue term shouldn't be overused. The phenomenon partially applies to alot of characters in fiction, vampire or not. If you apply it every time someone said 'WoD', 'Gandalf', 'Superman' or 'Jedi' it won't help the discussion. It just makes me think of the stoning scene in Life of Brian.

/snip

The depictations of vampires draw heavily on the emotions of them. Especially movieplots are lacking a basic interest in actually trying to portray the implications of near imortality. But love stories sell better than ruthless scheming. For that same reason you don't see alot of good espionage or political movies. There are exceptions to my last examples, but you can bet that you won't find vampires in them.
Because even if some of them actually were vampires they(the vampires and ofc the producers) would have never shown it.
You have to admit, that inserting vampires (or any other supernatural beings for that matter) into a story makes it less credible. And out of this arises the lack of interest in 'realistic' behavior. Usually all you get is some trash. If you are lucky the effects are good.

/snap

The inhumanity of vampires is of course an important part of WoD. For me humanity rating was one of the few annoying things in the setting. It took me some time to adapt (and switch path, so my GM was happy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) But going deeper into the books, I found that some of the WoD sourcebooks(in the older editions) actually deal with that in a mature way, which sets them apart quite nicely from what you describe Hermit (- and it seems you made some really bad experience with the game, or where does your bitterness originate?)

In order to feed, they can do that regularly (the "kinky one-stand" method), AND/OR they can occasionally gorge on Essence by killing persons they deem do not deserve to live anyway (the "eat the child rapist" method), AND/OR persons they were going to kill anyway (the "I stop in combat to drink/eat the felled security guard" method), such as enemies in combat, or people they were hired to kill. The last two strategies are fine for Wendigoes (although I suppose the Laele strategy may work for them, too, with some adjustments) and for Twisted who use Sacrifice and Cannibalize. Feasting on life-force by no means requires to be done on babies and maidens. It only requires someone whom for whatever reason, you are going to harm anyway. For a runner, such occasions are plenty.

Moreover, the three methods are not mutually exclusive, and may be used in turn, or in combination. IMO few typical runners would find real qualms about a companion that makes regular use of at least the last two methods.

Wendigoes PC are not forced or driven to "convert" fellow runners anymore than they are forced or driven to convert them to their own policlub or magical tradition. Any long-lived Infected will be smart and wise enough to take it to heart the "don't shit where you eat" maxim all hunters must know, and not to mix the necessities of feeding and companionship, or business dealings, and keep fellow runners and contacts wholly safe from Essence-hunting. Unless, and this is a rather likely scenario IMO, some non-augmented PC start to envy the powers of the Infected character and beg him/her to be "converted" out of their own free will. Which I suppose is quite viable, as long as the appropriate RP and Xp expense (since it seems RC will come with the necessary rules to play the Infected, and it will require the appropriate Qualities) are done.

Let's just say vampire characters are something I might react a little bit harsh on. Also, yes, maybe it is possible to play oWoD maturely - as in the dozor novels (though that would be M:TA). I just never saw it played as such, and the oWoD players I know, for the most part, were as I described above (with some three exceptions). Lots of angsty characters slaughtering people left and right and playing up their immortal loves, immortal sadness about their oh-so-horrible curses, or play upon the "I am the vampire übermensch" notion that seems to have been en vogue with oWoD VTM players. My one vampire character - Big Kahuna, a slightly overweight surfer dude who got vampirised while stoned and just woke up to a different world - committed suicide by surfing one last time during sunrise because the other PCs showed him exactly how he never would want to be (and I left WoD behind me for good). I always liked that scene in that cheap SciFi flick ... darkstar, I think - the dude surfing to his death. Thats one stylish way to go.

Vampire characters in SR, I had less ... encouraging ... experiences with.


Yes. Most people playing vampires actually play very much on that autocannibalistic, pseudo-victorian bohemian, pseudoromantic "dark" angsty stereotype with violent tendencies towards whatever the player has issues with. Possibly tainted by bad experience on my part, so this is in my subjective experience only, but ... considering the available fiction, in whatever medium available, on vampires, I find that most portrayals of them actually are either like that or like ghouls.


Yes. Or good political novels, actually.

Though there are good political intrigue-driven shows around (E-Ring, 24, Prison break (okay, that's mediocre), GitS SAC, or old stuff like X-Files), some decent movies (Ronin, Spy Games) and a number of really good games, including the Metal Gear and Splinter Cell series', as well as some other Tom Clancy franchise games. Intriguemongering lends itself far better to games or shows than movies, because it needs time to branch out, and time is something movies are short on.


Yes, but not in a "Shit, I am cursed and have no chanc of redemption", but in a "ooh, despite my curse and rather disturbing feeding habits, I am a feeling person who feels terribly lost and shags a lot of gothy girls and drinks not to kill because, deep down, I remain good". And that's the kind of internal conflict that's considered central to a mary sue, which is why I brought this up in the first place.


Which is totally NOT how wendigos, who, on a side note, are by default toxic shamans, have been portrayed so far.


Or they and the augmented chars kill him and collect the bounty on his head and have that good feeling of having rid the world of a monster. Which is more viable, considering most runners do seem to have some morals left ... and which the wendigo could only prevent by subverting them and making them dependent on him and regular cannibalistic meals. Besides, that way, if he has to kill one of the team, that person still has it's use.

Maybe. Only time will tell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Neither was I, but I still saw stuff (and did stuff), so I learned one thing or the other about non physical violence.

You don't actually need someone inferior, you just need him to convince him that he is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


How about reading and wording? I did say infected (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Anyhow, my point was not the killing, but the methods of a serial killer. Planning, perparation and all that stuff. You should try watching or better yet reading (Darkly Dreaming) Dexter to get the idea of what I'm talking about.

Also, I doubt someone on the influence of a mind wiping drug will have the emotional resonance neccessary for draining.


Let's pretend that abomination never happened, shall we? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Stop that Sue non sense. Angel is just some split personality emo kid. That does not qualify as Mary Sue, just as annoying.

Why does everyone hate on Mary Sue's? Not all of them are emo whiny bitches. A Mary Sue, is, by definition, an idealized fictional version of oneself. I don't really see a problem with that.

So, any character that tries to make good and retain some moral compass or have a positive attitude to a questionable situation is a Mary Sue to you ? Dude, I guess you do so much not want to see any character of mine, they must look so horribly Gary-Stueish to you. My typical attitude to RP vampires and their ilk is some variant of "Cool, I get immortality, fancy powers, and a gothy-babe magnet at the price of sun allergy, morally questionable diet and an anger management problem ? Where do I sign ?".



In SR4, they are Twisted magicians or mystic adepts at worst, followers of predatory Traditions and Mentor Spirits at best. Necessary adjustments and reinterpretations to fluff descriptions are an integral part of making a previously NPC-only character template open to PC use. Veteran gamers are very cognizant of the process, esp. if they are familiar with D20 or WoD games. Anyway, that fluff tells wendigoes may like cannibal flesh best (food preferences are not an irresistible drive, by any means), and therefore may attempt to corrupt someone before feasting. It does not mean they are irresistibly driven to do so with companions, allies, contacts, loved ones, etc. As a matter of fact, since such dupes are meant to be eventually consumed, it would be highly unsual. Again, do not shit where you eat. Packmates and mates are not prey. Hunters know it by instinct.



Well, such vagaries are supposed to happen in the dog-eat-dog world of SR, from time to time. OTOH, since the whole lifestyle of shadowrunners is critically dependent on the reliability and trustworthiness of team-mates and contacts (notice the overwhelming importance of reputation), such occasions would be kept to a minimum, in the runner society. Once, for whatever reason, you make the choice to associate with a runner, whatever his foibles, you do not turn your back on him, unless he betrays you first. It is assumed, once an Infected character is introduced in a group, or as a contact, that issues about its nature have been cleared first.

- disturbed childhood
- vampire
- ... with soul
- special abilities and weapons galore

Okay, maybe he is borderline. And Joss Wheadon just is a brilliant scriptwright. But he has a number of sue-ish traits.


Most likely. I bet you also would hate me as a GM. And yes, I see that as primarily fishing for sympathy and trying to capture everyone's attention. Sue me or deal with it, I suppose.


My typical attitude would be more along the lines of "kill it dead".


1) You can convert loved ones, if you really love them. Somehow, Wendigos can do that.
2) Wendigo generally are as sociable as poisoner toxics (not very), so no pack there.


And it is assumed that noninfected reayt with "wee cool" on having a dangerous, psychotic predator among them as the new team member that will consider them food once they have to be holed up together for more than a few days. Well yeah. Sure.


The problem lies more in the attention-seeking, world-breaking, overpowered and flat application of that. If you only want to play your slightly idealised self in sR, that's weird, but perfectly non-sue on it's own.

Disturbed Childhood is something a lot of people have in common without even realizing it.
Being a vampire in a vampire story does not qualify as Sue. Yet.
Having a soul is a trademark of the character that makes him annoynig, but without he is more Sue-ish, since he starts rampaging and killing just because he can, for no other reason.
Special abilities (like being punched in the face) and weapons galore (like some sword replica and tiny stakes) do not make you a Sue. At least not in a story with supernatural stuff.

Yes, he might borderline, but he misses the prime criteria of Sue: overglorification. To me he is and always will be a wussie with low self esteem.
Joss Whedons take on vamps sucks (no pun!) anyway.

Point taken. Wheadon never truly glorifies characters anyway. tnhat's what I like about him, I guess.

And his take on vampires is more bearable that WWs, if you ask me.