My grasp of magic is growing but I'm still having troubles providing useful suggestions to my neophyte magic PC's.

So I ask DS, what spells are seeing the most use at your tables? And if you only had 5 spells what would they be?

Improved Invis
Levitate
Heal
Stunbolt
Mana Static

All top notch spells to be sure useful in gobs of situations. Improved invis and Levitate and can often be faked with spirit powers. Admitted not as well.

Whipstich nailed it though. A mage should focus almost if not exclusively on that do things only magic can. That would be things like Mind probe, mana static, heal, etc. Also when it comes to spell selection in general also take a close look at all the default and optional powers of your spirits. While there is a lot of over lap on those 10 lists your spirits give you a lot of tricks ... that don't cost 5 karma each. If you have have a small team with lots of infiltration, then conceal and an Illusion spell might be a more powerful combo point for point, even though improved invis is awesome.

Hmm... good to know. Some maybe 5 might have been too short of list, got any other spells you'd all like to toss on there?

For me the best 5 would be

mana static
trid phantasm
control thoughts
shapechange
mindprobe (not as good as before it was always detected, analyze truth can be better because of this but you have to know what and how to ask)

mana or stunbolt are also very handy as well as the barriers.

Control Thoughts
Mind Probe
Levitate
Stunball
Improved Invisibility

if i was only taking 5, i might consider magic fingers over levitate. the degree of fine control could potentially be worthwhile. i do admit though, it's a tough choice... heavy lifting, or fine manipulation?

You can't finger yourself (no pun, blabla). So it won't help you go over that fence.
On the other hand with magic finger, you can stole the key from the guard.

Despite the similarities, I don't think those two spells have similar uses...

Out of those two i'd pick magic fingers because you really can do many things you'd use levitate for with spirits imo.

like what?

it's reasonably likely to levitate a few hundred kilograms of stuff. good luck getting anywhere near that with spirits.

Mob Mind (Try this use: "You don't want to resist my friend's spells, he's gonna help you..." then cue a Mind Probe, Alter Memory, or a second mage to get off a (now unresisted) Mob Mind.)
Mind Probe (Interrogation with questions like, "Whats the one question you MOST wish I wouldn't ask?")
Alter Memory (EG: "I alter the security guards memory of my shooting him and change it to a memory of my saving his life from some OTHER dude shooting him...")
Mana Static (Dump it on enemy spirits so guns can rip them apart, Worsens Invisibility, Screws up illusions, all kinds of nifty uses)
Area Thought Recognition (Learn it once then use to detect any concept... for kicks try 'Imminent Violence to others', 'Detecting a spell cast by another', and 'Using counterspelling')


And for the record, although it isnt one of my top 5 'best' spells the Physical Camouflague spell is usually better than Improved Invis. Since Improved Invis is all or nothing and Physical Camo makes stealth much easier its all about reducing the enemy's ability to perceive you to a dice pool of zero via Physical Camo, a Chameleon Suit, visibility mods, flash paks, etc.)

Influence
Fashion
Stun Ball
Levitate
Heal

Hehe... fashion and Alter Memory, to favorites of mine.

I meant things like levitating people over a fence or a wide gap for example, where you might as well use gymnastics + movement power. As for lifting heavy stuff levitate works ofc but then the weight you can lift is pretty limited again and often technical equipment is required.

perhaps you hadn't noticed that levitate lets you fly. like a LTA vehicle, except faster generally speaking. movement does nothing to make you move farther on a jump, and if you can get over the obstacle with gymnastics then it isn't really worth using any sort of magic on in the first place.

do not underestimate the power of flight.

So, let's calculate some average result.
Magic 5, spellcasting 5, spell not overcasted.
DP of 10 -> 3... I'll be generous 4 success (with a maximum of 5 anyway).

4x5= 20 meters/turn
Slower than a running human, the same as a dwarf without sprinting.

Not that fast I guess.

Except movement could also be used in addition to that.

Not to mention levitate can be an offensive spell too. Either by forcing them into hazards of the environment, or by just picking them up and dropping them.

Indeed. I never denied the usefulness of Levitate.
Just that, as one of my player discovered the hard way, it will not move something very quickly...

I dunno, I'd say flying at 20m/3sec is pretty damn fast compared to the alternative..... not flying.

This is a useful thread, since I also have some problems with magic. Could someone post links to Doc's other threads please?

And on a pet peive, regarding flying in SR, and more specifically movement:

20 meters/ 3 seconds is 24 kilometers per hour, which is better then not flying, but in my opinion the whole movement system in SR is pretty messed up. The walking speed for a human is 12 kilometers per hour according to SR4. Now, I am not in good shape anymore, but I went for a 2 mile run today in it took 20 minuets. Thats just under 10 kilometers per hour for 20 minuets at a running speed, and I was pretty damn tired by the end of it. The average person walking at 12 kilometers per hour? Crazy. Likewise, apparently we all run, not sprint, but RUN at 30 kilometers per hour. Not sprinting, just running. Average Joe.
The fastest sprint ever measured (unreliably at that) was 12.1 m/s at its peak. Gold Metalists for the Olympics tend to hover around 10 or 11 meters per second. Considering the base movement for a human in Shadowrun (sustainable running, not sprinting) is 8 meters per second, I think we are FUBAR.

Mana Static - one shot nut punch to any magical threat, arguably the best spell in the game

Physical Mask - a top spell, in addition to making you look like someone you're not (a handy talnet) it can also make you look like your NOT carrying something. IE a LMG. Sammie's love it because you can hide potentially illegal cyber and their guns in one fell swoop.

Heal - Arguably the best spell in the game. Its counterpart, fix, deserves an honourable mention for being the same thing except for technology.

Turn to Goo - Target has to save or die, and useful for other things, like smuggling people in your suitcase across border crossings for example, or into buildings.

Trid phantasm - creates an arbitary illusion that fools sensors. Sweet.

Control thoughts - 18 seconds is a lloonnnggg time in shadowrun. (I know thats 6)

If I could only have 5 it would probably look something like that, though I'd consider finding room for stunball.

There is absolutely no competition on the worthwhileness of Magic Fingers relative to Levitate. I dont care if you can tickle guards from across the room or even double it up as replacement for orgasm (hand job anyone?), Levitate is not just about lifting things up, it is about telekineticly moving them at will. Examples:

• Dude is trying to shoot you, levitate him into the ceiling above. 24km/h may not be much when your feet are hitting the pavement, but it is more than enough for your spinal column.
• Flying (most anonymous form of transportation, combine with Movement for best results)
• Stopping the runaway car. No fucking joke, requires a bit of overcasting, but can also move the car into a building, etc.

Yes, the movement rules in SR4 are dumb as fuck. Everyone moves at exactly the same rate, unless sprinting. You also dont even need to do math to realize that some of the figures are unrealistic. For this, I have done what I normally do: what would SR3 do?

I tied movement to Agility with a modifier based on race.

Walking Rate = Agility
Running Rate = Agility * Modifier

Dwarf = x3
Elf = x4
Human = x4
Ork = x4
Troll = x5
Ghoul = x5
Shapeshifter = x5
Faster animals = x6

With the 6 to 4 conversion, this works out nicely. Also, if it wasn't mentioned in SR4 already, Sprint is a complex action, and the max movement rate is divided by the number of initiative passes to determine movement/IP.

Also, here are the 5 spells I would learn if I were a mage (IRL):

Crank
Nutrition
Fashion
Physical Mask
Purify

And someone told me you could not make superheroes in SR *giggling like a little girl while making dramatic gestures and flingin' cars into skyscrapers*

Also remember that the altitude limit on levitate is up to the edge of the manasphere (~100 km?). So your mage can go and get his astronauts wings one weekend.